Dies to Removal

If you guys are okay with the Gutter closing, I'll simply pass that along and we'll process that immediately in preparation for this.

Bannings should occur first and then the unbanned people should discuss this in the right place: the Gutter-Staff pegging chamber, where (hopefully) no one will feel scared of posting. Then at this point we can discuss what to do with the Zombie-Gutter. Otherwise this is just putting words in other people's mouths yet again.

Having you or another person pass messages is not the proper way of doing things and this has been proven to be very
harmful in the past.

I would appreciate it also if Boubouille would chime in here as he hasn't a loaded past regarding the strained relationship. Everytime he was here things seemed to progress in the right direction.

I honestly don't care one way or another. If it's simply "hey they don't care about this stuff can we move on?"

I'm not up for more summits, I'd just like to offer my apologies for being brash and note that there's nothing to be brash over and get back to being a part of a community I've also been a part of for years and move on from this ordeal.

Why do we have to prove anything to the rank-and-file mods of Salvation? If they won't even come here to learn the facts then how do they have a say in what happens to us? I feel using this thread plus PM's and the file Boubs created should be enough in this circumstance.

Some of us are following the conversation. I suspect there are some more that are doing so but haven't registered.

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=27764#p27764:nqavu4pe]Talore » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:41 pm[/url:nqavu4pe]":nqavu4pe][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=27676#p27676:nqavu4pe]Kaitscralt » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:36 am[/url:nqavu4pe]":nqavu4pe]Why do we have to prove anything to the rank-and-file mods of Salvation? If they won't even come here to learn the facts then how do they have a say in what happens to us? I feel using this thread plus PM's and the file Boubs created should be enough in this circumstance.[/quote:nqavu4pe]
Some of us are following the conversation. I suspect there are some more that are doing so but haven't registered.[/quote:nqavu4pe]
My apologies for the intrusion, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with Kaitscralt's point. Clarification, please?

He implied that the local mods should not have a say in the potential unbanning of members because they won't come here to learn the facts (to some extent.) I'm pointing out that some of us are doing our homework in this matter. I too believe that local mods should be following this conversation if they are going to hold an informed opinion, which is why I've been reading.

Yes Talore but you are also someone who has been involved over the years. While that fact could be good or bad as far as you casting a vote, it still makes more sense for you to be in the pow-wow rather than every single staff member who doesn't know us and doesn't care. It's just a waste of time. Like Kijin said, we're done summitting. Cheers to Sally for being a democracy and all but waiting a year for a bunch of uninvolved's to vote seems dumb.

Yes Talore but you are also someone who has been involved over the years. While that fact could be good or bad as far as you casting a vote, it still makes more sense for you to be in the pow-wow rather than every single staff member who doesn't know us and doesn't care. It's just a waste of time. Like Kijin said, we're done summitting. Cheers to Sally for being a democracy and all but waiting a year for a bunch of uninvolved's to vote seems dumb.

I think most of us follow the discussion here to some degree, but I can never remember the URL, so I only come here intermittently.

edit: and I'm Senori, I don't remember why I registered with this name.

Argh. I'm out of popcorn.

Lol slowness of posting force me to glitch today.

Buy more. Its cheap enough.

Already taken care of. Although I do lament that the last of my Xmas present supply has been used up. It was made with maple syrup!

Thats fucking tasty.

Oh God yes. The syrup formed these crystals that melted in your mouth. I also got this soy-sauce-and-tabasco mix that was so amazing I was tempted to have sex with it, but I went through that pretty quick.

Why do we have to prove anything to the rank-and-file mods of Salvation? If they won't even come here to learn the facts then how do they have a say in what happens to us? I feel using this thread plus PM's and the file Boubs created should be enough in this circumstance.

Because that's how 'Salvation works.

Because, chances are, if you do something that is against the rules, it'll be the rank-and-file mods of 'Salvation who will have to handle it, not me.

And because they shouldn't have to come to a place where they have been (and could still be) ridiculed in order to find the evidence needed for your appeal.

Do you like shark chicks Nai?

They tend to be rather aggressive, so I usually give them a pass.

If you guys are okay with the Gutter closing, I'll simply pass that along and we'll process that immediately in preparation for this.

Bannings should occur first and then the unbanned people should discuss this in the right place: the Gutter-Staff pegging chamber, where (hopefully) no one will feel scared of posting. Then at this point we can discuss what to do with the Zombie-Gutter. Otherwise this is just
putting words in other people's mouths yet again.

Having you or another person pass messages is not the proper way of doing things and this has been proven to be very harmful in the past.

I would appreciate it also if Boubouille would chime in here as he hasn't a loaded past regarding the strained relationship. Everytime he was here things seemed to progress in the right direction.

I honestly don't care one way or another. If it's simply "hey they don't care about this stuff can we move on?"

I'm not up for more summits, I'd just like to offer my apologies for being brash and note that there's nothing to be brash over and get back to being a part of a community I've also been a part of for years and move on from this ordeal.

Best way to do that is to make an appeal. It's the best way to show this in detail to the mods who will be making the decision. Include a link to this thread if you like, starting at the relevant posts. That gives them a
ballpark of 'hey, this is where we can see what's changed'. But it's also a place where you can talk to them without them having to feel alienated or ganged up on. If they want to come here to talk, they will.

I do need to reiterate that the appeal thread is definitely a thing here. There's already people upset that the admins are even coming here to talk to you about this, as, to them, it shows that the 'treat these folks as if they are different' (previously known as 'because Gutter') is still live and well. Us skipping the appeals process, posting your appeal for you, etc., would actually be this.

Any affinity for any of the maritime lasses, Nai?

Well we deserve being treated differently because the mass bannings were discretionary and an exceptional event. Plus there are definitely some trust issues (see the mod lounge leaks -citations can be found here and in the razzies threads- where there are strong hints at many people having been baited into being banned)

The fact that most of us did this dance in the past (in a private setting, with poor results and communication; Kijin suspension, my one week suspension) doesn't give much credit to this option.

If you are genuinely interested in fixing the situation and this is not some more sweet talk/PR stunt (at which you admittedly are good) you are going to need to compromise.

right now we have three "game" outcomes

A) The staff reverses their illegitimate bannings, reopens the Zombie Gutter, and presents a public apology to those who have been unjustly banned for all their misinformation and lies. The
"good" ending.
B) The staff reverses the bannings, shuts down the Zombie Gutter and everyone goes on with their lives. The "neutral" ending.
C) The banned members go through the byzantine process of appeals in a private setting in MTGS, where they are made to jump through a series of hoops to the staffs content, and then if sufficient apologies are received, the staff will eventually unban the users in their infinite leniency. The "bad" ending.

We all can agree that you are essentially sweet-talking people into trying option C. Except that's not gonna fly for most of us (I know I'm not up for it). If you are really interested in burying the war hatchet you are going to shoot towards option B). Otherwise you can present option C) in the most positive of the lights all day long, I'm still gonna argue about the benefits of option A) all day long.

Up to now I have not seen anything conducive to the fixing of this rift coming from your words. I mean they sound nice, again
your good at it, but ultimately hollow since all we get from your sweet talk is that "You guys made mistakes and the Gutter was a pernicious influence on the main forums, but we are willing to listen and forgive in our infinite leniency".
Now look at Galspanic who points out that he is against the concept of probations. Now there's a solid first step towards B) He already did more with three lines of text than you with your (admittedly nice) several posts.

So the question is Nai: Are you just here to remind us the rules and appeal process of MTGS (and trying to sweet-talk us into embracing them)? Or are you ready to leave your comfort zone and try to shoot towards B)?

I've said repeatedly that I'm not just going to unban you, that the decision to unban is one that has to be done by the entire staff. And the staff has basically come to the conclusion that you guys aren't worth unbanning, that doing so will cause more trouble and that we'll be making a big mistake. I'm here to find a way to change that opinion.

If you want to work with me, fine. But I'm not going to sit here and go 'we have only three options and three outcomes'. I'm not going to make demands and say 'you must do this or that to make this work.' I will, however, say 'this is what you need to do to get unbanned' and 'this is the major hurdles you have to jump.' I will also say 'this is how we can work together to make returning good for you' and 'these are the rules that are changing that will make life better'.

You can beat that dead horse all day long. But it's not going to help you get unbanned.

Any affinity for any of the maritime lasses, Nai?

Not particularly. Nothing against them, you understand, but there's different wants between me and them. Different underlying desires. For instance, I can't get oxygen from water, so that's already a long-distance relationship.

I've said repeatedly that I'm not just going to unban you, that the decision to unban is one that has to be done by the entire staff.

when I say "you" I mean the staff at large. I always assumed this was clear.

And the staff has basically come to the conclusion that you guys aren't worth unbanning, that doing so will cause more trouble and that we'll be making a big mistake. I'm here to find a way to change that opinion.

So then you guys think we were justly banned. Well, we think you guys are morally corrupt. What I find surprising is why do you think its useful to rehash the same argument again?

If you want to work with me, fine. But I'm not going to sit here and go 'we have
only three options and three outcomes'. I'm not going to make demands and say 'you must do this or that to make this work.' I will, however, say 'this is what you need to do to get unbanned' and 'this is the major hurdles you have to jump.' I will also say 'this is how we can work together to make returning good for you' and 'these are the rules that are changing that will make life better'.

You can beat that dead horse all day long. But it's not going to help you get unbanned.

Your "options" are simply not good enough. If you didn't come here with the will to negotiate I really can't see what are your motives.

You guys destroyed an entire community. That is a very serious issue. Please stop acting like we are the only ones who need to present apologies for what happened.

As much as you can complain about me being antagonistic (and rightfully so in some way), you're doing the exact same thing. You're not helping either.

"once a gangster always a gangster"

We did not get any money from the early site. It was all the crooked staff from Sally. Now it's just a gangster's paradise.

Basically what I learn from this exchange is that the staff is worried we will steal their lunch money if we ever get unbanned

I've said repeatedly that I'm not just going to unban you, that the decision to unban is one that has to be done by the entire staff.

when I say "you" I mean the staff at large. I always assumed this was clear.

And the staff has basically come to the conclusion that you guys aren't worth unbanning, that doing so will cause more trouble and that we'll be making a big mistake. I'm here to find a way to change that opinion.

So then you guys think we were justly banned. Well, we think you guys are morally corrupt. What I find
surprising is why do you think its useful to rehash the same argument again?

If you want to work with me, fine. But I'm not going to sit here and go 'we have only three options and three outcomes'. I'm not going to make demands and say 'you must do this or that to make this work.' I will, however, say 'this is what you need to do to get unbanned' and 'this is the major hurdles you have to jump.' I will also say 'this is how we can work together to make returning good for you' and 'these are the rules that are changing that will make life better'.

You can beat that dead horse all day long. But it's not going to help you get unbanned.

Your "options" are simply not good enough. If you didn't come here with the will to negotiate I really can't see what are your motives.

You guys destroyed an entire community. That is a very serious issue. Please stop acting like we are the only ones who need to present apologies for what happened.

As much
as you can complain about me being antagonistic (and rightfully so in some way), you're doing the exact same thing. You're not helping either.

Do things your way, then? That's absolutely fine. The folks that are willing to work with me to get unbanned will be over here with me, and you're welcome to join us if you feel like.

Here's the thing Nai, You've failed. You were the Gutter-Staff liaison tasked with helping reaching the compromise. All you did was to post PR bullshit with no effective actions. I've failed. I've let my anger over the deception and lies get the best of me and it got in the way of the best interests of the community I represented. This site is only part of the amends I made towards them and I hope people can forgive me enough.

You think the correct option is option C). I think that the only morally right option is option A) (but still can understand why option B) could be warranted in a "realpolitik" way).

The thing is neither me nor you are helping here. Its time to leave place for more reasonable people like Thrillho and Galspanic, and then maybe some sort of halfway B.c), B.b) or B.a) can be reached.

I'm not going to ask you to GTFO because this site's pledge is to give the possibility for everyone to
voice their opinion without being harassed by cards and suspensions. I know that I am part of the problem instead of part of the solution, and I'll do my best to stay out of constructive discussions. But I'm not going to stand idly while you rehash the same barren arguments. In short, we should probably both exclude ourselves form this discussion, but I'm still going to call you on your mistaken premises if you insist on playing this little game.

PS: Also its nice for you to play the divisive card (yeah some guys are going to be unbanned, whereas the bad guys like yourself are staying punished). Nice to to know how sincere you are about fixing the rift I mean, I'm cool with proxy servers, and I even heard tunneling is a cool thing. We can keep playing little games, its so much funnier than to behave like adults right?

Guys, if you ever go for the appeal process, just say "Scumbag made me do it" in case people call you out on something. You have my blessing.

Alternatively you can also claim "I did it because Scumbag stole my lunch money" if you want to be creative.

Well, you did.

Why am I appealing if Nai is saying the majority of the staff doesn't want us unbanned? Why will they not just say that at the start and save us another Gutter Staff Pegging Chamber? I am growing agitated. This sounds like a sham where the end result will be the admins saying they tried to get us unbanned but the random scrub mod from the Tickle Sub-Forum veto'ed it. Stop trying to be the good guys if the verdict is already served. I don't have time for this shit.

The staff doesn't unban without appeals. So if you want to be unbanned, that's the way to go. What I'm trying to do is help you get a successful appeal. Part of that is changing the way the staff feels about you and what's going on. You've given Sene a lot of information about why you should be unbanned. Giving that information to the staff could get you unbanned. But not doing so? Just leaves us where we are now.

The admins can do whatever they want. They can even consider an appeal an appeal no matter where it is. Appeals and oranges. Stop pretending you are locked under the judicial system with no way out.

It is not wrong to consider a special case scenario a special case scenario, Nai. I hope you realize that.

Tell your mods to get back to work.

Yeesh. And I catch flak for doing showtunes in the chat. :S

Get back to work.

we've been providing evidence that we should be unbanned here. The fact that you're sticking your fingers in your ears and shotuing "lalalalallalala not listening" is not becoming.

You've given Sene a lot of information about why you should be unbanned. Giving that information to the staff could get you unbanned. But not doing so? Just leaves us where we are now.

Sene is staff last time I checked?

Get back to work.

Oh, you mean your job for you? Very well.

Hey, Nai, if you were in Kaitscralt's position what would you do?

You've given Sene a lot of information about why you should be unbanned. Giving that information to the staff could get you unbanned. But not doing so? Just leaves us where we are now.

Sene is staff last time I checked?

boom roasted