LEGO Movie Mafia - Game Over - Town Win

[Col. Khaddafi]

I repeat, does anyone here care to claim to have blocked my imopen2 vig kill? Now is the time to do it IMO

[imopen2]

Also, a great reason why az pushed ham's mislynch so hard is that he was about to complete his batbot device which would return him to the game if he were killed. Think about it, guys

[Col. Khaddafi]

Since its obvious at this point noone is gonna snitch itself about the blocking, the next step is checking wether it was possible that any of the dead guys ( G_R, ham and rez ) could have done it at that time

[RedNihilist]

Resorting to fear, huh?

Is that how you characterize embracing the idea that the town should A) Kill me because its good play to not ignore a claimed cop investigation, while B) using its abilities to play around losing to said false cop gambit in the process?

Pretty fair characterization, there.

Clearly, the town should just bravely proceed to lynch me without considering things like Imopen's unexplained ability to be unkillable, your identical, self-serving role-claims, why Imopen (claimed cop investigation pending) survived last night while Rezombad (an unclaimed player) was killed, my having blocked the N1 kill, any behavioral analysis of us whatosever, and they should just skip planning for the possibility that when I flip, they'll see I was telling the truth and pinpointed the last two scum.

Because just taking your guys' word for who the last scum is, in lylo, and ignoring everything else that's happened between us, would be the smart way to play it?

You're going to fail. The town's smart enough to see that they need to plan for both possibilities, not just trust you unflinchingly, and that's going to result in both of your deaths.

Ok, you're not promoting fear.
Fair enough.
Explain once again to me why we're on LyLo, because I think I'm missing something.

[Azrael]

Resorting to fear, huh?

Is that how you characterize embracing the idea that the town should A) Kill me because its good play to not ignore a claimed cop investigation, while B) using its abilities to play around losing to said false cop gambit in the process?

Pretty fair characterization, there.

Clearly, the town should just bravely proceed to lynch me without considering things like Imopen's unexplained ability to be unkillable, your identical, self-serving role-claims, why Imopen (claimed cop investigation pending) survived last night while Rezombad (an unclaimed player) was killed, my having blocked the N1 kill, any behavioral analysis of us whatosever, and they should just skip planning for the possibility that when I flip, they'll see I was telling the truth and pinpointed the last two scum.

Because just taking your guys' word for who the last scum is, in lylo, and ignoring everything else that's happened between us, would be the smart way to play it?

You're going to fail. The town's smart enough to see that they need to plan for both possibilities, not just trust you unflinchingly, and that's going to result in both of your deaths.

Ok, you're not promoting fear.
Fair enough.
Explain once again to me why we're on LyLo, because I think I'm missing something.

6 players alive.
2 scum alive.
1 lynch, 1 NK, - 4 players alive, 2 scum. GG.

[Azrael]

Since its obvious at this point noone is gonna snitch itself about the blocking, the next step is checking wether it was possible that any of the dead guys ( G_R, ham and rez ) could have done it at that time

Relevant time period is D1. To have a device active on D2, they would have to build at that point.

Rez built a comm device to talk to me on D1, as stated by me yesterday while he was still alive. GR was dead, so not him. Ham, per post 861, was working on his bat bot D1 and would have completed it D2.

[RedNihilist]

Resorting to fear, huh?

Is that how you characterize embracing the idea that the town should A) Kill me because its good play to not ignore a claimed cop investigation, while B) using its abilities to play around losing to said false cop gambit in the process?

Pretty fair characterization, there.

Clearly, the town should just bravely proceed to lynch me without considering things like Imopen's unexplained ability to be unkillable, your identical, self-serving role-claims, why Imopen (claimed cop investigation pending) survived last night while Rezombad (an unclaimed player) was killed, my having blocked the N1 kill, any behavioral analysis of us whatosever, and they should just skip planning for the possibility that when I flip, they'll see I was telling the truth and pinpointed the last two scum.

Because just taking your guys' word for who the last scum is, in lylo, and ignoring everything else that's happened between us, would be the smart way to play it?

You're going to fail. The town's smart enough to see that they need to plan for both possibilities, not just trust you unflinchingly, and that's going to result in both of your deaths.

Ok, you're not promoting fear.
Fair enough.
Explain once again to me why we're on LyLo, because I think I'm missing something.

6 players alive.
2 scum alive.
1 lynch, 1 NK, - 4 players alive, 2 scum. GG.

Oh, that's embarassing.
Well, I hoped we could win by just hanging you, but if you say that we've also got to find your brethren I can only believe you I guess.

[Stardust]

Votecount!

Azrael (2): imopen2, Dechs Kaison

Not voting: Col. Khaddafi, Azrael, Lord_Mcdonalds, RedNihilist

With 6 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[imopen2]

Ok, so az has confirmed there are 3 scum in this setup. Can we lynch him now?

[RedNihilist]

I'm making dinner, I'll post about it later.

[RedNihilist]

Actually, I'm having second thoughts on the proper line at this point.

[Azrael]

Everyone stopped posting again.

Lord McD, CK, Dechs, what questions are still on your mind regarding how we play today and tonight?

We seem to be looking at a few remaining topics:

1. Verifying that no one other than the scum team could be responsible for Imopen being still alive. At this point, o far as I can see, we've eliminated all other player possibilities. It's either the scum team, or a bastard mod issue, which doesn't seem likely within the context of the rest of the setup.

2. We need to decide between lynching me and preparing night actions to stop us from losing to the gambit, or no-lynching today, and preparing abilities to execute a simul-lynch or simul-kill on me and Imopen. This, I think, is where there's some room for additional debate over both strategy, and which faction is more credible. Personally, I'm not particularly partial to one alternative over the other, provided that we have an effective, fool-proof plan for issue #3.

3. Once #2 is decided, we need to decide how best to implement either countering the scum NK, countering the scum win condition, or setting up a double-kill/double lynch mechanism.

If we don't hear any more debate on issue #3 soon, I'll come up with plans of my own to submit to Stardust so that we can generate time estimates.

[Col. Khaddafi]

The plan is to lynch imopen2 and to shoot you. I'm confirming with the mod that we can do both, and I might be able to help with the vig shot.

[Mcdonalds]

Everyone stopped posting again.

Lord McD, CK, Dechs, what questions are still on your mind regarding how we play today and tonight?

We seem to be looking at a few remaining topics:

1. Verifying that no one other than the scum team could be responsible for Imopen being still alive. At this point, o far as I can see, we've eliminated all other player possibilities. It's either the scum team, or a bastard mod issue, which doesn't seem likely within the context of the rest of the setup.

2. We need to decide between lynching me and preparing night actions to stop us from losing to the gambit, or no-lynching today, and preparing abilities to execute a simul-lynch or simul-kill on me and Imopen. This, I think, is where there's some room for additional debate over both strategy, and which faction is more credible. Personally, I'm not particularly partial to one alternative over the other, provided that we have an effective, fool-proof plan for issue #3.

3. Once #2 is decided, we need to decide how best to implement either countering the scum NK, countering the scum win condition, or setting up a double-kill/double lynch mechanism.

If we don't hear any more debate on issue #3 soon, I'll come up with plans of my own to submit to Stardust so that we can generate time estimates.

[skimmed the pervious page or two so if I missed something, I apologize)

1. I'm not going to speculate on information I don't have, all it really leads to is WIFOM and talking in circles (see Gone Postal mafia), and use the information I have, I agree that we've narrowed it down however.

2. If imopen speaks the truth, then lynching/killing you is the first thing we need to do in any scenario and any further discussion is simply to cover our tracks in case of scenario x

3. See above

How I feel it should play out: I feel the town goes for it at this point, if imopen is telling the truth, then we more than likely win the game, if not, then we have another day to discuss what to do,

If we can shoot az, then yeah, we do that.

[Dechs Kaison]

Here's the deal: If Imopen is lying, it's because there's two scum left and they win as soon as we lynch Az.

If he's not lying, there's still probably only one scum left. By lynching Imopen (since he already didn't die to a vig shot), we can verify his town-ness and still lynch/shoot Az tomorrow.

I mean, I want to trust the cop. But I want to trust his role PM more.

[RedNihilist]

There are two possible lines at this point:
- Azrael is scum. GG.
- Azrael is town. At that point, imopen is scum and has managed to mess with my power, and that's not *that* impossible.

As said earlier, I consider DK + LMD town, yet I'm still bothered that Col.MoJo.
imopen's call on Azrael, though, is very relevant, and there's absolutely no way that scum could mess up with both my power and imopen's, so a town-flip from Azrael would seal the deal on him being scum.

Thus I think the proper line consists in hanging Azrael then, based on his flip:
- win;
- lynch imopen if Azrael flips town;
- lynch Khaddafi if Azrael flips town and we're still not winning (debatable).

[Dechs Kaison]

Red, the problem is that if imopen is scum, then he's lying and there's one more scum player. We lynch Az here and we lose immediately. Again, there's a lot of reasons to think this scenario is unlikely. Basically, though, we're relying on Imopen to be telling the truth. (Keep in mind, that if he's lying, then it requires one more scum player to exist. That extra scum would probably back him up with a second "cop" ability.)

Again, there's probably only one scum left, which means Imopen probably isn't lying. If he is lying and we trust him, we lose. If we lynch him and prove he's town, then we know he didn't lie and we still have the time to hang/shoot Az.

I'm convinced this is the best line of play now.

Vote Imopen

[RedNihilist]

Occam's Razor: imopen isn't lying.

If he is, tell me why he needs to have a partner.

[Dechs Kaison]

Because it's a stupid gambit if he's the only scum left. We lynch Az, find out he's lying, then lynch him. The only way him lying makes sense is if there are two scum to end the game.

[RedNihilist]

Warning: extreme WIFOM inside:

Because it's a stupid gambit if he's the only scum left. We lynch Az, find out he's lying, then lynch him. The only way him lying makes sense is if there are two scum to end the game.

... or we find out that Az was in fact town, and imopen goes with "Somebody's interfered with my power! I explicitly stated I would have used it! We're getting outplayed!" and we end up actually not knowing if he's the desperate scum that's trying to grind his way out or if somebody has really just messed up with his power.
The scenario is not as stupid as you're hoping, imho.

[Col. Khaddafi]

As I said, if we have to lynch anyone, its imopen, because vig shots don't seem to work on him.

Btw, I've asked, and the game mod has confirmed that a vig shot will not end the day, so the best course of action is lynching imopen2 and shooting Azrael.

vote imopen2

[Azrael]

Cool. I've submitted appropriate plans.

Lord McD, there's a decent chance I'm going to be killed once Imopen flips, so I think one of the best uses of my abilities would be to chrono-boost you. I've submitted two versions of the ability, one that allows you use it at the time of your choosing, and one that reduces it for tomorrow.

[Azrael]

Occam's Razor: imopen isn't lying.

If he is, tell me why he needs to have a partner.

When imopen flips scum, please explain in what possible universe could you be town?

[RedNihilist]

The one we're currently in, for example.

[RedNihilist]

The next question is: with all this vig-shot bonanza going on, I think I've missed an episode - who's today's vigilante?
Do we have a vig shot ready today?

[Azrael]

The one we're currently in, for example.

I'll be more specific. In what universe could you be telling the truth about getting a town-result on Imopen through your claimed ability, and still be town?

How does that happen, pray tell?

[Azrael]

My abilities are submitted. Lord McD, if you're not ready to go to night, lmk, and I'll hold my vote.

[Azrael]

Warning: extreme WIFOM inside:

Because it's a stupid gambit if he's the only scum left. We lynch Az, find out he's lying, then lynch him. The only way him lying makes sense is if there are two scum to end the game.

... or we find out that Az was in fact town, and imopen goes with "Somebody's interfered with my power! I explicitly stated I would have used it! We're getting outplayed!" and we end up actually not knowing if he's the desperate scum that's trying to grind his way out or if somebody has really just messed up with his power.
The scenario is not as stupid as you're hoping, imho.

If both Imopen and I flip town under this scenario, I think the town still goes ahead and kills you with its final lynch, and wins.

[Col. Khaddafi]

The one we're currently in, for example.

I'll be more specific. In what universe could you be telling the truth about getting a town-result on Imopen through your claimed ability, and still be town?

How does that happen, pray tell?

uuuh, if imopen2 is a godfather?

[Azrael]

The one we're currently in, for example.

I'll be more specific. In what universe could you be telling the truth about getting a town-result on Imopen through your claimed ability, and still be town?

How does that happen, pray tell?

uuuh, if imopen2 is a godfather?

But it wasn't a cop investigation. It was a "Mod, tell me if this statement is true or a lie", with the statement being "I am town".

The only way to subvert that would be a master builder, which, hopefully, the scum don't have at their disposal and/or couldn't build a device that quickly.

Regardless, I don't think that possibility is likely enough for us to worry about. If one of you, Dechs, or Lord McD are scum, I'll be flabbergasted.

[Azrael]

The one we're currently in, for example.

I'll be more specific. In what universe could you be telling the truth about getting a town-result on Imopen through your claimed ability, and still be town?

How does that happen, pray tell?

uuuh, if imopen2 is a godfather?

But it wasn't a cop investigation. It was a "Mod, tell me if this statement is true or a lie", with the statement being "I am town".

I'm not wrong about this, am I?

Even if it was a conventional cop investigation, I don't at all like the way Red's played today or his claimed choice of abilities, would still advise killing him instantly following appropriate flippage.

[imopen2]

you guys are really going to make the exact same mistake as I made when I decided to disregard the cop result and buy into the complicated conspiracy theory? Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor Occam's razor.

I go back to the fact that mojo continued to threaten to vig me, never once saying anything about his shot being blocked. Now scumbag comes in and suddenly I'm a gambiting godfather. Also, vig is an incredibly powerful ability in a 9 person setup and somehow scumbag is able to create them at will.

Az had me as town the whole game, and then at the start of the day I'm a prime suspect.

This is stupid, you guys should feel terrible, and I'm honestly sad that I've wasted so much time arguing this. The scum team obviously wants this more.

Sure, do whatever you guys think makes sense, but I hope you realize that, with 6 alive, if you lynch me, and there are two scum left, we still lose to a scum NK. Lynching me today will almost certainly mean we lose this game, and that's not fearmongering, that's a fact.

[Col. Khaddafi]

why did my vig shot against you failed on day 1?

[Col. Khaddafi]

like, you didn't even entertain any scenario other "Scumbag is lying" bro. Now you are all "listen to the cop", "occam's razor" etc...

[Col. Khaddafi]

Is there any other scenario that you would be willing to entertain, other than

A) Scumbag is lying about vigilante
B) Scum team blocked imopen2 vigilante kill

?

[Mcdonalds]

I'm confused, do we have a vig shot, can someone point me to a post confirming that?

[Mcdonalds]

Is there any other scenario that you would be willing to entertain, other than

A) Scumbag is lying about vigilante
B) Scum team blocked imopen2 vigilante kill

?

Avoid false dichotomy, there are infinite possibilities we could consider, all we have is what's been posted

[imopen2]

like, you didn't even entertain any scenario other "Scumbag is lying" bro. Now you are all "listen to the cop", "occam's razor" etc...

...that is by far the simplest explanation.

Here are the things I know about this supposed vig shot:
1. I am town
2. I have no protective ability
3. Mojo threatened a vig
4. Mojo continued to threaten a vig past the point where you claim he used it
5. You claim mojo vig'd me and it failed
6. No one has come forward to confirm they protected me
7. This vig shot created a convenient dychotmy for az, right when he was caught where either myself and red we're lying or you and az were lying.
8. I clearly considered all options when you claimed this vig shot (you can go find the posts where you and az were not considering all options and instead pretending that your claim meant I was hiding part of my role. I corrected these assertions repeatedly).
9. Since no one has come forward claiming responsibility for the protect, that leaves two options (since I know I'm town without a protection ability). Those options are that either the scum team blocked the kill through a jail ability or some drawback to their roles (unlikely), or you are lying (EXTREMELY LIKELY).
10. I know az is scum, but I'm 99% sure you're scum as well. The only way you aren't is if the scum protected me or a townie did and just doesn't want to admit it (I will be so pissed if this is true)

[Col. Khaddafi]

And what about the plan to lynch and vig shot both of you guys? You seem way more uncomfortable about this option than Az

[Azrael]

I'm confused, do we have a vig shot, can someone point me to a post confirming that?

CK's claimed he can kill someone by tonight.