Dies to Removal

I don't think I'd maindeck 4 chained; probably -1 chained; +1 shock; but now I'm being pedantic.

I was originally going to run 3 chains, but the Ux Devotion MU is just so horrible...

MDU PM me all your relevant links and ill see what I can do about getting them incorporated into my CFB stuff we should cross promote I thinks;)

I'll include your CFB link in all my future videos, right now I only have one link which is http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMagicdownunder since I never got around in setting up Twitch TV. I may try YouTube LIVE once DEs are back, but as Australians are people event awake to watch LIVE streams???

I do however like the idea of interacting with the audience...

Alright cool ill run it past my editor

If you're good/entertaining enough, people will make time to watch your stream. You should definitely get into it.

MJ has the best model for streaming as it involves music, plus audience interaction and you can see him sneer at you with derision. As an Australian, you have the accent to make up for the visuals

For you're blood pressure sake, it's better to not read the chat while you're playing until you have a tough decision to make as you will go on tilt from reading inane comments.

Also, +1 on U being horrible. It's not that the matchup is so bad, it's that you want to be as pre-boarded for it as possible as it's the one deck that has draws that can just beat you which is the most frustrating thing ever.

I just got blown out by Anger of the Gods in game 3 against Red Devotion in a 8-man. Am I supposed to play around that card post board against them? I assumed they didn't run it. Am I wrong or did I get screwed by a lucky sideboard card?

I just got blown out by Anger of the Gods in game 3 against Red Devotion in a 8-man. Am I supposed to play around that card post board against them? I assumed they didn't run it. Am I wrong or did I get screwed by a lucky sideboard card?

You must of confused Big Red/Boros over Devo Red/Boros, they're very similar but with slight differences.

Either way your board plans against both version shouldn't be much different, just your approach against them.

Nykthos red plays anger in the board. Wether or not you play around it depends on if you think you can play around it and still win. If you can, play around it, if you can't pretend it doesn't exist.

Just had some excellent games versus Mono U and UW Devotion (2-0, 1-2, then 2-0 vs the UW Devotion) only to lose a game to Naya Midrange. Losing to such a crap deck almost makes my wins over the blue decks feel not so great ;;

Did anyone had time to test Legion's Initiative in sb in place of 3rd Boros Charm? Should make 4 damage and still act as sweaper saver.

Report time from the PyroBlack camp. A week later I´ve tested and digested the development here. I´d sum up the current feeling that the deck didn´t have enough punch in the red and white versions. Thus the meld of burn and big decks. I went black because of the bad MonoU matchup and the good sb.

The lastest iteration was inspired by the various dragon builds, but I switched the dragon for Underworld Cerberus. The first reason was that dragon is so vulnerable to black spot removal. The second is target saturation. Dragon does not force an answer by exile, the dog does. Thus is the "exile count" upped to 9. Third reason is the most compelling: the ca and punch. Instead of going the burn way and diluting the number of creatures, thus being more vulnerable to variance (i.e. you MUST draw the right cards for say half the damage you expect to do, whereas creatures force a
response of the opponent), I have now 9 cards providing ca.

I also kept the 3 Chandras as I want to deploy as many creatures as possible. She helps them connect and draws new ones.

The end result is the normal aggro turns 1 to 3 deck followed by a grindy phase, but with a new shiny reset option.
[deck]PyroBlack v.2[/deck]
I´m at about the same numbers as before with no bad matchups. Much casual testing, but here´s a small report from mid week magic.

Match 1 Red Devotion. 2-1
G1 He has Hammer md and curves Cackler, Ashley, Hammer and
Fanatic. We struggle a few more turns, but his head start takes the game.
G2 SB: -4 Satyr, -1 Dreadbore, +3 Reckoner, +1 Flames of the Firebrand, +1 Doom Blade. He stumbles on mana and I don´t.
G3 His Reckoner gets Doom Bladed in a stare down of Ashely + Reckoner at each side of the table. Win for team black.
(2-1)

Match 2 Mono red aggro 2-0
G1 This is an almost unfair matchup. I burn away his offensive and then counter attack.
G2 SB -4 Satyr, +2 FotF, +1 Doom Blade, +1 Ultimate Price. He gives up when my defensive Phoenix and non-Unleashed Cackler are joined by the BIG dog.
(4-1)

Match 3 Rogue Dimir mill
G1 Burn, counterattack. No contest.
G2 -1 Doom Blade, +1 Dreadbore. Even more burn and less contest.
(6-1)

Match 4 Esper
G1 Mull, manascrew and more manacrew. P*ss annoying game.
G2 -3 Chandra, -3 Shock, -1 Doom Blade, -1 Lightning Strike, +3 Erebos, +4 Duress, +1 Dreadbore. It can´t possibly happen again? Sure it can. I ground some teeth over this since last week I ran over Esper twice
in the same store and feel that I have all the tools I could need. We even ran a 3rd game to get a decent time of magic and then I flood like a madman and manages to draw all 3 gods on 10 cards. Some bad Juju!

[quote="magicdownunder » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:58 am
Ash Zealot

I didn't cut Ash Zealot because she DIES TO REMOVAL, I cut her because in the MUs which matter she doesn't connect since the other side can produced better threats which outclass her much too fast.
[/quote]

So outside of not curving (which in my opinion isn't a concern in this deck) as well as removal not being an issue I don't see how the above is an issue. If Ashley sticks our burn package should be enough to finish the majority of creatures that hit the field with combat tricks. I thought a dead creature and us with board presence is always good?

Try the version with Ash and the version without Ash a few times against BG, Gx and Ux Devotion.

Tell me your thought after that, if you still believe Ash is better then removal in those MU then so be it (We may have different play styles nothing wrong with that).

I'll be playing this at FNM:

[deck]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 21
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instants 12
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Others 4
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster


Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
2 Last breath[/deck]

Tested on Cockatrice with LP tonight

Okay, I don't know how many of you guys are on PyroRed, Walter White, PyroDragons, or Zippity-fucking-doo-dah-Red, but I'm curious about something: is Shrivel a card we should be worried about in the Mono Black MU?

If this has already been discussed, I apologize. This thread moves pretty fast and there are so many different decks being discussed that I'm more confused than DroppinSuga at an Elementary School assembly.

I'll be playing this at FNM:

[deck]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 21
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instants 12
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Others 4
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster


Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
2 Last breath[/deck]

Ballin'.


For what it's worth, I've always liked a 3/1 split on Shock and Flames of the Firebrand.

Khaos, I've heard more and more people are bringing it in from the board, which is why I'm starting to wonder if my previous suggestion of just siding in all the burn and taking out creatures is a legitimate strategy. If they bring in Shrivel and keep Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, Devour Flesh, etc in the deck imagine how many dead cards they'd have in their deck!

Interesting point, Val.

Poijt is can you really win by turn 5 with burn without creatures.

You don't need to win by turn five. Just keep them off a big Gary hit and you're golden. Chain Demons, pop Rats and deal 20 damage. Skullcrack, Boros Charm, Helix, and Toil / Trouble is more than enough.

I'll be playing this at FNM:

[deck]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 21
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instants 12
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Others 4
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster


Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
2 Last breath[/deck]

Ballin'.


For what it's worth, I've always liked a 3/1 split on Shock
and Flames of the Firebrand.

It's never really helped me that much, and I find that I often want to play YP$ on T3 with shock up in case he's involved in a real estate deal.

So, right now I am pretty much in love with MDU's most recent PyroDragons build.
I changed fanatic in the sideboard for aot's because of my meta, but that's it.

I am considering taking the 2 fotf out, putting in 2 mortars instead, and have 2 mortars and 3 charms in the sideboard. Thoughts?

(list with only aot change, for staring at:)

[deck=MDU's PyroDragons]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instants 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Others 8
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
3
Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Act of Treason
2 Last breath[/deck]

---

So, right now I am pretty much in love with MDU's most recent PyroDragons build.
I changed fanatic in the sideboard for aot's because of my meta, but that's it.

I am considering taking the 2 fotf out, putting in 2 mortars instead, and have 2 mortars and 3 charms in the sideboard. Thoughts?

(list with only aot change, for staring at:)

[deck=MDU's PyroDragons]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath
Dragon

Instants 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Others 8
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Act of Treason
2 Last breath[/deck]

[/quote]

I really really like FotF and it turns our matchups against weenies into byes. Yes, our matchup versus weenies is already extremely good but I think its important to take all the free wins you can in a large tournament (you'd rather be 70/30 against some of the field than 50/50 against the entire field). I also happen to like FotF more than mortars in the 2 most important matchups, Mono Black and Blue. They're both limited in each but FotF is better at killing Pack Rat and fine against specter. Against blue, mortars is slightly more efficient at killing some creatures but FotF gives the possibility of blowing out blue hands with multiple small creatures.

So, right now I am pretty much in love with MDU's most recent PyroDragons build.
I changed fanatic in the sideboard for aot's because of my meta, but that's it.

I am considering taking the 2 fotf out, putting in 2 mortars instead, and have 2 mortars and 3 charms in the sideboard. Thoughts?

If the advantages of Mortars MD out weight those of FotF in your meta then run them What specific match ups are you expecting to face where you think Mortars will be better than FotF ( remembering that you have 4 Chains) and what match ups will you need to bring in the 3rd and 4th Mortars (still remembering that you have 4 Chains) ?

If my memory
serves you've asked about bringing Mortars in before and if it is just that you like the card and it is perfect for your meta (maybe there are lots of Dragons or Blood Barons so you won't be able to Chain them) then run it There really isn't a 'right' answer - people are getting excellent results with different variants of the deck

@RaidaTheBlade, you've mention that GW/x based decks are common and have been giving you issues so 6 'terror' effects is fine for that meta.

On other news I finally got a chance to test against non-Bx Devotion decks... so'll upload some footage against Wb Weenies, GB re-animator and Ux Devotion. Haven't seen many Ux Devotion decks in 8-mans lately which is a shame since I need for data on them, I'll continue to assume Esper and Gx are still good MUs (really looking forward to Dec 11th, for more accurate data).

Try the version with Ash and the version without Ash a few times against BG, Gx and Ux Devotion.

Tell me your thought after that, if you still believe Ash is better then removal in those MU then so be it (We may have different play styles nothing wrong with that).

Its probably because I dance around the MUD matches whenever I hit a tourney up. With BG and Gx the combat tricks always showed up for me. I'll definitely give the ashley-less version a go against the field tomorrow.

I was playing MUD vs. JS and the matchup seemed evenish. As not a blue player, I'm sure I boarded wrong but it didn't seem like either player had a massive advantage in any of the games. Blue has the better lategame(cyclonic rift) and nykthos can cause things to get out of hand, but pyro has infinite removal so everything balances out. I did learn from playing blue that chain can be bounced with rift which should be obvious, but it's worth noting as that can lead to blowotus.

I also see the point on needing dragons/mogis to make last breath playable. Those extra life points I would get definitely stabilized me in some games. Or at least made sure I stayed stable after losing my spector or MoW.

Thanks for the feedback everybody...

Yeah, MDU kinda hit on it. My lgs has a ton of Naya, G/W, and Dega.
So I'm facing down Smiters, Lions, Dragons, and Barons (oh my!) all day long... Ergo my want for the mortars.

There's a good bit of aggro too, but that's already a good matchup, so the only deck I would really miss fotf in is mono-u, but having the (admittedly unlikely) chance of overloading mortars helps there some as well...

But yeah, that's my reasoning. Oh, and last friday I think I fund a deck more annoying then maze's end or mono-u... U/W control with 2 maindeck MoW... (He hit them both in one game ;-;)

Hrmm, I have the hardest time against really fast aggro in PyroDragon, but god do I love the SB options for almost every match up. Hasty drops though hurt, even taking a hand full of burn.

Are you referring to Red Boss? Sometimes they'll just beat you while you fumble around your Shock and Citpt lands but It should be in your favor most of the time since your almost already 'pre-boarded' against them, just make sure your in the control mindset as soon as you know what they're playing which mean using Rakdos Cackler as blockers and so on.

So, it seems like every so often when I can't sleep, I dick around with a PyroRakis build...
Here's my horrible abomination this time, it focuses on the whole card advantage thing that normal PyroRed lives off of.

(It's horrible unrefined, I know, was a quick thing. Also the sideboard is shit, sorry e.e)

[deck]
Creatures: (19)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tenacious Dead
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells: (17)
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Doomblade

Planeswalkers: (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land: (22)
9 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Mutavault
2 Godless Shrine

Sideboard:
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Ultimate Price
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Duress
1 Dreadbore
1 Doomblade
[/deck]

Just realized MUD as an acronym is a Legacy deck and doesn't really stand out as Mono-Blue Devotion.

Yeah, good point... -goes to edit his earlier post-

@LP, of the Fires, I'm glad you notice it - I hate when people call Ux Devotion MUD, I just want to scream its not an artifact deck.

@RaidaTheBlade, the fact that your running Tenacious Dead in an aggro deck gets style points from me .

- - - - - - - - - -

Here is video against Ux Devotion with my new Sideboard plan:

PyroDragon Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G2 vs Ux Devotion

Well, considering the idea of card advantage, I like having yet another recurring creature. It can chump block or sac to the burger king all day... Though I'm not actually using this list, it was just a thought experiment...

Also, just watched that vid (and subbed ) and I find not bringing in reckoner interesting... It solves some of the issues with space, and it does spare us from being domesticated...
Still, feel like I'll miss all 'dat value, but your arguments make sense.

(Also, didn't know you were a brony till now )

Report time from the PyroBlack camp. A week later I´ve tested and digested the development here. I´d sum up the current feeling that the deck didn´t have enough punch in the red and white versions. Thus the meld of burn and big decks. I went black because of the bad MonoU matchup and the good sb.

The lastest iteration was inspired by the various dragon builds, but I switched the dragon for Underworld Cerberus. The first reason was that dragon is so vulnerable to black spot removal. The second is target saturation. Dragon does not force an answer by exile, the dog does. Thus is the "exile count" upped to 9. Third reason is the most compelling: the ca and punch. Instead of going the burn way and diluting the number of
creatures, thus being more vulnerable to variance (i.e. you MUST draw the right cards for say half the damage you expect to do, whereas creatures force a response of the opponent), I have now 9 cards providing ca.

I also kept the 3 Chandras as I want to deploy as many creatures as possible. She helps them connect and draws new ones.

After reading your post, I decided to mess around with a PyroBlack setup (see below)

[deck]
Creatures
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Underworld Cerberus

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Other Spells
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Doom Blade
3 Dreadbore
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Land
3 Mutavault
11 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate

Sideboard
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
3 Duress
2
Fanatic of Mogis
[/deck]

A quick summary of the game reports:

otP vs BG Midrange 2-0
otP vs RW Weenie 2-0
otP vs Esper Devotion 1-2
otP vs GW Aggro 2-1
otD vs Boros Devotion 2-1
otP vs Mono Red Devotion 2-1
otP vs Esper Control 0-2
otD vs BU Devotion 2-0
otD vs Mono Blue Devotion 0-2
otP vs Junk Midrange 2-1

7-3 Match Total (15-10 Game Total)

I clearly have some redundancy in the SB, but I found it needs more of a punch. Maybe more removal? Not sure, something just felt off. Underworld Cerebus is nuts though, that's for sure lol. Definitely a finisher.

EDIT: Lol and I just realized I was running 22 land...

After reading your post, I decided to mess around with a PyroBlack setup (see below)

[deck]
Creatures
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Underworld Cerberus

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Other Spells
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Doom Blade
3 Dreadbore
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Land
3 Mutavault
11 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate

Sideboard
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
3 Duress
2 Fanatic of Mogis
[/deck]

A quick summary of the game reports:

otP vs BG Midrange 2-0
otP vs RW Weenie 2-0
notP vs Esper Devotion 1-2
otP vs GW Aggro 2-1
otD vs Boros Devotion 2-1
otP vs Mono Red Devotion 2-1
otP vs Esper Control 0-2
otD vs BU Devotion 2-0
otD vs Mono Blue Devotion 0-2
otP vs Junk Midrange 2-1

7-3 Match Total (15-10 Game Total)

I clearly have some redundancy in the SB, but I found it needs more of a punch. Maybe more removal? Not sure, something just felt off. Underworld Cerebus is nuts though, that's for sure lol. Definitely a finisher.

Thanks for the feedback Kef!

Here´s my observations testing:

I believe you may struggle with Esper thanks to the low number of Gods. Mortars does nothing that Erebos doesn´t do better. Baron turns into a walking 4/4 for 5 mana that you can either chump as normal or kill with burn and Ashley/whoever and Sphinx turns into a very expensive card draw. Exchanging Chandra for Erebos also renders their Hero´s Downfall into very expensive spot removal when they want them for Chandra, so that´s an additional bonus. Skullcrack I´d say
is redundant as Erebos does the same thing better. Erebos also is a exile target (see Downfall comment earlier) which ups the count for D.Sphere to 9 targets meaning you have upper hand thanks to target saturation.

MonoU is solved by instant spot removal. You want to let them land Master and eot destroy it followed by counter attack. I board in so I have 3 which is enough imo as our offensive is much faster than theirs as long as Master isn´t involved.

I think 2 Dreadbore is enough and FotF belong in the sb to be used for aggro matchups. Fanatic can be a suprise bomb, yet haven´t felt I had space in the sb for him. Again maybe redundant as you say.

Are you referring to Red Boss? Sometimes they'll just beat you while you fumble around your Shock and Citpt lands but It should be in your favor most of the time since your almost already 'pre-boarded' against them, just make sure your in the control mindset as soon as you know what they're playing which mean using Rakdos Cackler as blockers and so on.

Yea...I don't know, I was pummeled once again by Boros Devotion. Ash Zealots backed by Boros Reckoner's absolutely destroying me.
I love how this deck beats down on GR and Mono Blue, but I seem
to be kicking and screaming, clawing my way to game wins in match ups that has anything fast. I'm torn though...
PyroBoros with Shaman is really well positioned against a lot. It just has a very narrow way of dealing with Gx shit and not the best with dealing with Mono Blue (better then previous Pyro versions though, no doubt), but PyroDragon snacks on that shit for lunch.

It's just...the amount of damage I take from cacklers and zealots from decks like Boros Devotion is nuts, either I take the damage or burn the shit with Mizzium and Lightning Strike on targets that I would rather save for later. It's really hard to combat a turn 3 BTE BTE Cackler + possibly a Phoenix coming in. At MOST I can only deal with 2 of the targets right away. Maybe it's just an unfavorable match up, but RW Weenie gave me similar issues, mostly because of that god damn Paladin (though, I've always had issues with that Paladin long before this...). I would have loved a Ash Zealot to deal with their Cacklers/Zealots oppose
to burning spells on them that I could be later be using for their face or another, more harmful threat.

Ugh...frustrating. The above doesn't show all the testing. I was fucking around with the SB before I came full-circle and back to your exact 75. So, the frustration stems from all the testing prior with PyroDragon...

Random thought/question: MDU, have YOU considered BTE in PyroDragon? Just curious....ok I'm just angry because I'm being clocked hard versus BTE play lolol

Keftenk, spoiler-tag your images. I believe I told you that last time as well.

Hey I am back from GPTs on GP Vienna and I encountered a very nasty problem: While the typical Meta Decks like Mono U and Mono B doesnt hold up against the Pyro White build, I find myself struggling a lot against Gruul and Naya type of builds with their big ass creatures. Do anyone have some suggestions for SB changes or something else? Please note that the Dragon is not an option since i cant get my hands on it in time.

thx

What list are you running?