Dies to Removal

For the matchups you'd bring it in against, does it hit the reasons you lost those games and, if so, is it in enough time to still not lose to those reasons?

I've not tested with it, but I'd say yes in some cases. I've found Desecration Demon hard to deal with in some matchups, so happy to have another out against him, ditto Polukranos/fatties in general. Also realised that it gives you a way to get rid of detention sphere, which could come in handy.

I'll give it a whirl on MODO tonight and see how it works out.

I would not take out Toil / Trouble. That card will flat out win you the game on the spot. An argument can be made for multiple Slaughter Games but not at the expense of your best postboard burn spell.

Fair enough

do you ever feel like you need Reckoners in a certain matchup?

With all the removal I run postboard against decks I'd be bringing in Reckoner for, no. It's only exceptional vs R/x and we have huge game against them without him.

Slaughter games probably straight up beats Mono-black and UW/x when drawn in a timely manner but is also incredibly dead when behind and seems completely unnecessary vs. both decks.

Slaughter games probably straight up beats Mono-black and UW/x when drawn in a timely manner but is also incredibly dead when behind and seems completely unnecessary vs. both decks.

This is why I'm of the opinion that you should only be running one. It's not a card I want to be topdecking on turn eight when I'm looking for action to finish off my opponent.

I would also only run a single Slaughter Games. These effects are very, very swingy (really good, or just awful)

Can ya'll explain what's wrong with my logic?

-Slaughter Games (like Peak Eruption) is a card that wins the game when played early.
-In order to play it early, you have to draw it early.
-To draw it early, you have to have multiples.

If you just play one, then isn't it more likely to be drawn later in the game than early? I like to have a 1/15 chance that any given draw is going to be my silver bullet, and as a 3 or 4 of you are practically guaranteed to draw it early. Since we've agreed that it essentially wins the game when played on-curve, why not just play several? Sure it is a bad topdeck late game, but if you played it already didn't you just win?

#armchairSpeculation

(runs off to check Ham's chart)

EDIT: Ok so based on the chart, you have essentially a 50% chance of drawing Slaughter Games on T4 (which is where you want to cast it against B-Devo) if you play the full 4. So that makes the game a
coin flip. If you play one, you only have a 16% chance of drawing it by T4. Playing 2 doubles that number. Seems like the sweet spot is 2.

Slaughter games probably straight up beats Mono-black and UW/x when drawn in a timely manner but is also incredibly dead when behind and seems completely unnecessary vs. both decks.

This is why I'm of the opinion that you should only be running one. It's not a card I want to be topdecking on turn eight when I'm looking for action to finish off my opponent.

Hence Pack Rat > YP$ = no bad topdecks.

I dont really know why would you like Slaughter Games more than thoughtseize. Of course it doesnt strip the opponent of topdecks, and is bad topdeck, but it is cheaper, strips opponent of card that matters NOW and most of the time is 1 for 1 not 0 for 1.

Vs Esper are you going to strip them of verdict, jace, revelation or paladin? Or blood baron / elspeth? Seeing their hand makes you choose the card that is important now, leave ones you have answers for or you can win before they matters. Sometimes striping op from azorius charm is all that maters.

I might be able to borrow a few Thoughtseizes this friday to see how it goes

I always figured it'd be strong vs control but I was thinking more in a Dos Rakis kind of fashion until now, it makes sense to have TS since we're running a pretty grindy build (which ultimately means that control gets a lot more time to stabilize than they would have vs a regular aggro build).

Good thinking Pedros

I always figured it'd be strong vs control but I was thinking more in a Dos Rakis kind of fashion until now, it makes sense to have TS since we're running a pretty grindy build (which ultimately means that control gets a lot more time to stabilize than they would have vs a regular aggro build).

You´re arguing against yourself If we are grindy Control gets more chances to draw relevant cards. Thus it´d be better to remove all copies of said card rather than picking one off their hand and also paying 2 life. Next problem is if I pick Aetherling they can win with Baron. If I pick Sphinx, they can win through Elspeth. They don´t have a single wincon, but a small number
of them each. This is the issue I have with TS AND Games.

Thus my preference for Erebos. He shuts down Baron and Sphinx while Jace and Elspeth can be targetted by Dreadbore. Aetherling is a harder nut, but is it worth to include a singleton Games for it? Statistics says no as Control draws more card than we do. I simply hope Purphoros heed my prayers on that one...

That is why I tend to play 2 Erebos and 3 Seizes in SB. In games where you strip control from Det. Sphere and slam erebos I have drawn more cards than he did.

Can ya'll explain what's wrong with my logic?

-Slaughter Games (like Peak Eruption) is a card that wins the game when played early.
-In order to play it early, you have to draw it early.
-To draw it early, you have to have multiples.

If you just play one, then isn't it more likely to be drawn later in the game than early? I like to have a 1/15 chance that any given draw is going to be my silver bullet, and as a 3 or 4 of you are practically guaranteed to draw it early. Since we've agreed that it essentially wins the game when played on-curve, why not just play several? Sure it is a bad topdeck late game, but if you played it already didn't you just win?

#armchairSpeculation

(runs off to check Ham's chart)

EDIT: Ok so based on the chart, you have
essentially a 50% chance of drawing Slaughter Games on T4 (which is where you want to cast it against B-Devo) if you play the full 4. So that makes the game a coin flip. If you play one, you only have a 16% chance of drawing it by T4. Playing 2 doubles that number. Seems like the sweet spot is 2.

I think that's the nature of a "silver bullet" type card, though. In order to get the full picture you'd probably want to do the math on how likely it is to top-deck a 1x, 2x, or 4x Slaughter Games turns 5-10 when it doesn't matter nearly as much. And then ask yourself how many slots you're willing to take up with a card that you only want to see once against specific decks and in a specific time frame.

I think this is why a lot of pros put 1-ofs in decks, and part of the reason you see a lot of 1-ofs in older formats (tutors too, but still). I'm pretty sure LP and Z have discussed it before - maybe in one of Z's "questions to the audience" where he gauges responses

Going to WNM with PyroWhite/PyroDragons.

[deck]
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Chandra's Phoenix
2x Stormbreath Dragon

3x Chained to the Rocks
2x Chandra, BCIS

4x Shock
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Strike
2x Flames of the Firebrand

4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Scry-umph
1x Boros Guildgate
3x Mutavault
11x Mountain

Sideboard:
3x Boros Reckoner
3x Skullcrack
3x Mizzium Mortars
2x Boros Charm
2x Last Breath
1x Chained to the Rocks
1x Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

Running a Boros Guildgate over a Mutavault (as I said, financial reasons plus Boros Reckoner post-board). Was going to run a BW temple for the extra White source but didn't want to run into a situation where you have that and a Muta and want to cast a Phoenix on-curve. I'd rather have the 9th white source, too.

SB is one of MDU's PyroDragon sideboards minus 2x Fanatic for +1 Hammer, +1 Mortars. We'
ll see tonight if I'd rather have an extra Reckoner+Crack in those slots, or Peak Eruptions, or what. I do like the amount of monoU hate in this SB though.

SB plans mostly follow MDU's plans for his previous PyroDragon 75:
Think I got my basics covered, I can play it by ear on the other matchups.

Match 1: Bg Devotion, won 2:0. Nothing of note happened.
Match 2: Bg Devotion, lost 1:2. Game 3 he got stuck on two land but I flooded out (keeping 3x YP$ 1x L-Strike?, 3x Land) and had ~7 land by the time he drew his third and had a hand full of gas. Was able to keep me off Pyros too. Bleh.
Match 3: Bye. Opponent never showed up.
Match 4: Junk, lost 0:2. Game 1 mulled to 5, drew well, couldn't draw better though. Game 2 I kept Temple, Shock, YP$, Jet, and some stuff and never drew another land. Life was 10 to his 30 (Whip + Reaper + Polukranos) and he dropped a BBoV. Woo! Dropped.

Bleh.

Can ya'll explain what's wrong with my logic?

-Slaughter Games (like Peak Eruption) is a card that wins the game when played early.
-In order to play it early, you have to draw it early.
-To draw it early, you have to have multiples.

If you just play one, then isn't it more likely to be drawn later in the game than early? I like to have a 1/15 chance that any given draw is going to be my silver bullet, and as a 3 or 4 of you are practically guaranteed to draw it early. Since we've agreed that it essentially wins the game when played on-curve, why not just play several? Sure it is a bad topdeck late
game, but if you played it already didn't you just win?

#armchairSpeculation

(runs off to check Ham's chart)

EDIT: Ok so based on the chart, you have essentially a 50% chance of drawing Slaughter Games on T4 (which is where you want to cast it against B-Devo) if you play the full 4. So that makes the game a coin flip. If you play one, you only have a 16% chance of drawing it by T4. Playing 2 doubles that number. Seems like the sweet spot is 2.

I think that's the nature of a "silver bullet" type card, though. In order to get the full picture you'd probably want to do the math on how likely it is to top-deck a 1x, 2x, or 4x Slaughter Games turns 5-10 when it doesn't matter nearly as much. And then ask yourself how many slots you're willing to take up with a card that you only want to see once against specific decks and in a specific time frame.

I think this is why a lot of pros put 1-ofs in decks, and part of the reason you see a lot of 1-ofs in older formats (
tutors too, but still). I'm pretty sure LP and Z have discussed it before - maybe in one of Z's "questions to the audience" where he gauges responses

I don't ever want to draw 2 Slaughter Games, and two in your opener is pretty much an auto-lose; that sort of effect is only good in some board states (you need to have a relevant clock). Even then, if you cast it and miss, you're putting yourself behind; and I have seen games where people cast it, hit, and lose. It isn't all that. Singleton is fine because I can either game plan around if it is in my opener, or can cast it any time I draw it later. The hands with 2 lands + 2 Slaughter Games...blech.

Contrast that to Peak Eruption which gets dramatically better in multiples; Slaughter Games gets worse in multiples. A hand with 2 Peak Eruption is amazing; a hand with 2 Slaughter Games is awful.

Match 1: Bg Devotion, won 2:0. Nothing of note happened.
Match 2: Bg Devotion, lost 1:2. Game 3 he got stuck on two land but I flooded out (keeping 3x YP$ 1x L-Strike?, 3x Land) and had ~7 land by the time he drew his third and had a hand full of gas. Was able to keep me off Pyros too. Bleh.
Match 3: Bye. Opponent never showed up.
Match 4: Junk, lost 0:2. Game 1 mulled to 5, drew well, couldn't draw better though. Game 2 I kept Temple, Shock, YP$, Jet, and some stuff and never drew another land. Life was 10 to his 30 (Whip + Reaper + Polukranos) and he dropped a BBoV. Woo! Dropped.

Bleh.

You kept a one-lander on seven cards and lost.

I hope we've learned our lesson.

Knowing when to mulligan is probably the most important thing in magic besides building your deck properly

I should know because I am known for keeping one-landers way too often

It's going to have to be a very special deck with a very specific hand for me to ever keep a one lander.

And that is why I consider you an advanced MTG player

I thought I said I kept a Foundry in there. My mistake, wrote "Shock" instead.. I got stuck on two land, and that was after scrying stuff to the bottom after a Jet. Did draw both Chandras, Phoenix, Reckoner, a Dragon, etc. but they didn't exactly help on two land.

Actually shipped a one-lander back in game 1; I've learned my lesson since Game Day when me and my opponent both kept onelanders in the finals (game 1 me, game 2 him) and we lost our respective 1-land games terribly.

[edit] Game 3 my opponent went Forest t1, Forest Caryatid t2, Forest Caryatid Caryatid t3... didn't draw a nonbasic until like t5/6. I have never wanted overloaded Mortars or an Anger more.

Yeah that's a tough break.

I've been watching some of MDUs videos and screaming at the screen every time he misplays. Particularly the mono blue matchup in game two where he got too greedy trying to overload his Mizzium Mortars and kept missing on his sixth land. Just take the one-for-one and reduce the devotion, damn it!

Meh, I beat myself up over my bad luck for a bit, but my losses were mainly variance. Played as well I was I could with what I drew. *shrug*

Hopefully I'll get to play some Magic on Friday because I only got two good matches in last night. And the Junk player does play at the other store on Fridays as well so I'll hopefully get a more fair rematch (or not... because fuck Junk.)

Match 1: Bg Devotion, won 2:0. Nothing of note happened.
Match 2: Bg Devotion, lost 1:2. Game 3 he got stuck on two land but I flooded out (keeping 3x YP$ 1x L-Strike?, 3x Land) and had ~7 land by the time he drew his third and had a hand full of gas. Was able to keep me off Pyros too. Bleh.
Match 3: Bye. Opponent never showed up.
Match 4: Junk, lost 0:2. Game 1 mulled to 5, drew well, couldn't draw better though. Game 2 I kept Temple, Shock, YP$, Jet, and some stuff and never drew another land. Life was 10 to his 30 (Whip + Reaper + Polukranos) and he dropped a BBoV. Woo! Dropped.

Bleh.

Thanks for the report! What would you think the metagame is in your area? Mine is fairly creature and agro heavy (very few control/mono black decks
running around, maybe 15-20% at most) - and for this reason i LOVED the idea to move the 4 satyrs to the board, and got to put the three reckoners main deck. it feels a lot like pre-boarding, but still having them in there for the games 2 and 3 you need them.

EDIT: Junk is stupid, they put an unflinching courage on a reckoner, and go into domri and start killing your stuff. stompy is always going to mess with you... it does me anyway

Brought this list to Wednesday Night Magic last night:

[deck]
Creatures - 16
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Planeswalker - 3 Thighs
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Instants/Sorceries/Enchantments - 18
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Boros Charm
1 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Land - 23
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
11 Mountain

Sideboard - 15
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Rod of Ruin
1 Assemble the Legion
[/deck]

It's a 4-round event and they give store credit based on record. $5 entry and I went 2-1-1 to get $6 credit.

Matches:
Round 1: Dega Midrange (Jay): 1-1-Draw
I win game 1, he wins game 2, we draw game 3. I ran over him game 1 but both games 2 and 3 we were both removing pretty much everything the other person cast. I should
have won game 3, though. There was a turn - probably his turn 7 or so - where he dropped Sin Collector. He had plenty of open mana and cards in his hand, and I had a YP$, Phoenix, and a 1-drop on the board. I cast a Boros Charm declaring all my permanents indestructible, since his life total was well above 10 and I thought I needed permanents. Well, he finished our draw at 7 life and at one point (well later, both hellbent) I scryed away a Lightning Strike because I thought I needed to stick a creature to win. If I had sent that Charm to his face I could have kept the Strike and won. 4+3=7, his ending life total. Lesson learned - shouldn't have played defensively.

Round 2: G/W Aggro (Max): 1-2 Loss
Another punt. Game 1 I punted, game 2 I won, game 3 he got the nut draw and won.
The game 1 mistake was really stupid. I was at 8, he was at 6, and I attacked. My board was YP$, a token, Phoenix, and Chandra. He had a 3/3 Fleecemane
Lion and Advent of the Wurm mana up. I figured he'd block my token with Lion and my YP with Advent, so I was concentrating on how to kill the Advent token. I thought - ok, YP does 2 damage, Magma Jet in my hand does another 2, and second main I can +1 Chandra to kill it and put him to 3 (he was at 6, Phoenix and +1 is 3). Magma on the Advent will let me scry into a win-con next turn. Well he didn't block my token with his Fleecemane. Which means 3 damage got through, putting him to 3. And I still stupidly Magma Jetted the Advent token and then +1'd to kill it. After everything was done I looked down at my life pad and saw him at 2. I said "fuck" out loud, he asked me why, and I said "if Jet to the face I would have just won." He drew Ajani, monstrous'ed the Lion, double strike and flying, and hit me for 8 - my life total. Lesson learned - do the fucking math. Don't get so stuck in a game plan assuming you know what your opponent will do.

Round 3: U/W
Control (Ian): 2-1 Win
Game 1 he mulled to 5 and I won fairly easily. Game 2 he got Elspeth + Elixir online. Game 3 My life total went 20-24 (last breath) - 22 (shockland). His went 20-18-16-12-2-0. Forget the details but it was over quickly. There was a turn in there that I had a good number of things on board, 2 Foundries untapped, and he verdicted - Boros Charm in response and I think I won next turn.

Round 4: G/r Monsters (Chris): 2-0 Win
Nothing to really say here. My life didn't change from 20 in game 1 and in game 2 Chained to the Rocks and Boros Reckoner just take over. I sided out 2x Chandra, but hit the last one left in the deck and it worked wonders for me. There was a turn where he had a monstroused Polukranos and a BTE to my Reckoner. I think I was at 11 and him 14 at this point. 0 Chandra, reveal Mortars. Cast Chained on Polukranos, Mortars BTE, swing in, and downhill from there. (though it was really the Chained to the Rocks that was the superstar here).

I really love this
deck. There are a TON of line of play decisions to make, and I clearly got a couple wrong in the first two rounds. People either put me on an aggro deck or the 8-creature Burn deck that's going around right now. Both are wrong, and I really like the middle ground that this deck has. It has a great matchup against small aggro strategies, does pretty well against control, and can hold its own against black-based midrange and green-based midrange decks.

I haven't played much against mono-blue devotion with this deck. My only outs to Master of Waves are 4x Chained and 1x Rod of Ruin. I was thinking of making some sideboard changes. Should I include some number of Last Breath? I was also considering Wear // Tear. For room I could drop Skullcrack altogether for a 2 LB and 1 W/T split. But that card is so good against MBD. Thoughts?

@Volition: WNM store is typically deck-of-the-week with minor tweaks. Haven't been there in a while before last night, but I saw lots of mono-B/Bg Devotion, RW Burn with 3-4 Assembles in the SB, some Esper and UW control (more UW), even saw the UG Flash deck that won a PTQ recently. FNM store is mostly homebrews with a few stronger decks (2-3 Junk+Esper players, lots of mono-red, and a few mono-U).

Update on Angelic Edict: played about 6 matches with it in the sideboard now and I'm not 100% convinced. I'm yet to use it on an enchantment or a creature where the exile effect would be relevant. It does get stuck in your hand sometimes as well, as 5 lands can take a while to hit.

On the plus side: it plays well against mid-range, where their threats are too big to burn out and you have time to hit that 5th land. It's also nice against red decks that side in peak eruption as an alternative to chained.

I think on balance it's probably not worth the slots, as I'm squeezed for space in the sideboard as it is. Any other options for dealing with Desecration Demon? (seem to lose to that card far too often at the moment)

Update on Angelic Edict: played about 6 matches with it in the sideboard now and I'm not 100% convinced. I'm yet to use it on an enchantment or a creature where the exile effect would be relevant. It does get stuck in your hand sometimes as well, as 5 lands can take a while to hit.

On the plus side: it plays well against mid-range, where their threats are too big to burn out and you have time to hit that 5th land. It's also nice against red decks that side in peak eruption as an alternative to chained.

I think on balance it's probably not worth the slots, as I'm squeezed for space in the sideboard as it is. Any other options for dealing with Desecration Demon? (seem to lose to that card far too often at the moment)

[card]Act of
Treason[/card]. Other than Chained, that is really the only option in R/w.

What specific problems are you having with the Demon?

Show us on the doll where the demon touched you.

Opponent resolves it, if I have a chained to the rocks then I can deal with it, otherwise I have to start losing creatures or suck up 6 damage a turn.

I've had situations where I have enough tokens and small creatures to keep it tapped until I win, but if it resolves on to a blank board (fairly common as we're trading 1:1 early on), then I have a problem.

Most cards I draw will just delay the inevitable (creatures, chandra, burn), I either need to topdeck a chained to the rocks or 2 lightning strikes. If I draw a land or a small burn spell (about 50/50 chance) then I take 6 damage.

the demon touched me inappropriately Khaospawn

the demon touched me inappropriately Khaospawn

We have group counseling in the Fires of Salvation Clan thread if you feel the need to talk about it. You may like it there.

Demon is not a card this deck has issues with. You have 4 Pyromancers, some number of Chained, 4 Phoenix, probably a bunch of one drops, etc. No need to add anything to deal with it, change the way you play.

[deck=MDU's PyroDragons Test One]Lands 23
11 Mountain
1 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
3 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Skyknight Legionnaire
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instants 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Enchantments 04
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion Initiative

Sorcery 02
2 Mizzium Mortars

Planeswalkers 02
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Last Breath[/deck]

It isn't Jan 4th yet so I have time for random testing, thoughts on the above list?

Why Skyknight?

Why Skyknight?

She has haste and she can fly which is good in a format dominated by the ground force, she may end up being horrible but testing will tell.

If only mindsparker had flying

I tried out Viashino Firstblade and liked it. I imagine Legionnaire would ha e better results against everything but Nightveil Specter.

@MDU - I don't see exactly what are trying to achieve with the addition of Skyknight, what match ups do you think the deck is bad in that the card improves?

I personally like 4YP and 4 FDS MD with a Mountain and another Dragon in the board That said I have the feeling that you will post good results with the list you've posted; I remember you posting good results running Haunted Plate Mail earlier in the season