Dechs wagon has Red on it - my other scumread, and a neutral.
Red wagon has a townie on it and myself.
Never mind. Yeah. I'll stay here.
I didn't catch this before, but Kaze, what the hell is this post? You were super gung-ho about lynching Dechs even after his soft-claim (it's all you talk about for a while), then he calls you out for lying (since you'd never voted for him) and you drop Dechs entirely. The post before this one you said "You're right! :O and I had a reason for that. I think." talking about why you never voted Dechs. Elaborate.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:53 pm
by Stardust
So, I think Kaze is scum. Normally I would wait for him to respond to the questions I just asked him, but deadline's in two days, so we're doing this now.
Kaze
Kaze starts the Red wagon in RVS for fine reasons. Later says he was serious, which is probably true. Carries the wagon with more reasoning, though both reasons are just weak scum tells. He goes on to claim that hammy is the second scum and should be lynched Day 2. Just keep this in mind for later.
Next up, Kaze insults imopen for thinking Red is town while simultaneously calling Red town. All Kaze's reasons for suspecting Red to this point have been quite weak, so his resolve should be shaken, right? Nope.
Keeps right on pushing it, and continues to push against imopen later. This is why I want Kaze to case Red, because if he doesn't have anything substantial to justify his actions over these few posts, we've got him.
A weird thing here is that Kaze doesn't just push against imopen with regards to Red, but to hammy's slip as well. In the same post says the slip is nothing, but then also asks ham for more information regarding his plan (read: role?).
That same post kicks off Kaze's proper attacks on DK, though he doesn't go anywhere with it until DK starts to push against Kaze. That builds for a full page until finally... a votecount and both of them just drop it completely. I strongly suspect that Kaze and DK are the two scum. DK is probably a rolecop.
Back to Kaze, with Kaze defending me from Wraith. Some consider defense of another to be inherently scummy (I don't), but this is an interesting case. With how things ended up, this comment from Kaze really worked to solidify Wraith's scum read on me. Thinking now, it's obvious that it had to go that way. I think this is Kaze observing just how much Wraith loves conspiracies and setting him up to create his own surrounding my actions. That comment "Do you really think [blank] would be so [blank] as scum" is useless when directed anywhere else. So useless that I was surprised to see Kaze use the line. Thinking now about manipulating Wraith though, it's genius.
Kaze pushes Red some more, blah, blah, blah, then we get to the post that first caught my eye (when I responded with this post).
ok so wraith is town. there is way too much town frustration in his posts towards stardust. he had a legitimate question (considering how little of a case has been made against him during the wagon), and he didn't lose track of it which, although it was a simple question, is a positive sign in my book.
So you're for WraithTown? Awesome! We're making progress. Now if only we could sure up your compass as far as pretty much everyone else, your reads wouldn't be a peg above utter rubbish!
I mean, calling me scum for tunneling is one of the more hilarious accusations I've heard in a while.
Why do I "need to be lynched eventually anyways"?
This post just reminds me so much
of scumKaze in Boondocks. Condescending, dismissive, and calling scum reads on him a joke. The last is repeated later in his response to my calling him scum.
The next post bugged me too, saying that imopen had "Reads so bad, they can only come from town!" Given how little effort Kaze has seemingly put into other players in this game, I think this shows far too much confidence in his reads. Tunneling is one thing, but dismissing other cases entirely is when we cross the border into scum. Considering he has had townie reads from Red this game (and that I keep insisting Red is town (with Kaze apparently having a town read on me)), his blind confidence is definitely unwarranted and therefore much more likely to come from scum.
All in all, I'm now fairly confident that Kaze and Dechs are the two scum. I'm more confident that Dechs is scum (by a
fair margin, actually), but given his claim I'm okay with leaving him until tomorrow.
Vote Kaze.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:16 pm
by Dechs Kaison
I think this is hilarious. Kaze and Stardust are my biggest scum reads. Kaze and me are Stardusts biggest scum reads. So, out of the three of us, one is definitely scum. Obviously, it's not me, and I'm going to be able to prove it tomorrow (unless someone protects my randomly selected target or role blocks me).
The next deduction I have to make here is that I can't be right that Stardust/Kaze is the team because this is way too early for a bus from Stardust. So, what is he doing here? Well, he's effectively trying to start a new wagon. The best part of the case references Kaze's behavior in a previous game few of us have experience with and we're supposed to take his word for it. It's just a ploy, more misdirection. This close to the deadline he's not hoping for a mislynch, just a no-lynch.
Hanging Scumdust in two votes.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:44 pm
by imopen2
Unvote
Vote: Kaze
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:13 pm
by Stardust
...and I'm going to be able to prove it tomorrow...
I mentioned it in my Kaze case, but I should highlight this. Dechs has claimed a rolecop/cop combo. Such a role could be given to town, but rolecop is much more often a scum role. If Dechs is scum, he also has the benefit of knowing who is not scum, making the cop portion of his claim relatively easy to fake (especially if ham is the only neutral, as I suspect he is). Basically, he can prove he's a rolecop, but he can't prove he's not scum.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:14 pm
by hamfactorial
This is very interesting. I'm going to re-read on my lunch break and pay special attention to the Stardust-Kaze-DK interactions.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 pm
by Dechs Kaison
...and I'm going to be able to prove it tomorrow...
I mentioned it in my Kaze case, but I should highlight this. Dechs has claimed a rolecop/cop combo. Such a role could be given to town, but rolecop is much more often a scum role. If Dechs is scum, he also has the benefit of knowing who is not scum, making the cop portion of his claim relatively easy to fake (especially if ham is the only neutral, as I suspect he is). Basically, he can prove he's a rolecop, but he can't prove he's not scum.
How about you let me worry about what I can prove.
I'm certain that everyone will believe me tomorrow. You, however, are already trying to undermine my claim before I even have that chance.
Come on guys, just hang him already.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm
by hamfactorial
Something weird I noticed on my re-read.
Oh, and I'm careful because I have a legit useful to town power role and I'd like to use it at least once before I get hanged. I rigged my choices so I couldn't be a vanilla townie.
So I'm at four votes, I guess I should claim something.
Vanilla town with a two shot ability that is a perfectly reliable investigative power.
Like I said, though, I probably have no idea how to use it best. So, yeah. Go on. Hang me.
He rigged his choices so he couldn't be a vanilla townie then claims vanilla townie.
Still sorting out the Kaze-Stardust accusation storm.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:25 pm
by Dechs Kaison
Yeah, that was a misspeak. Notice I say "vanilla town with a two shot ability." It's just clear I have no idea what I'm talking about. Vanilla means no ability.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:27 pm
by Dechs Kaison
The choices I gave Pie were scum or power role. I wanted to feel like I could do something this game, so I rigged the choices to accomplish that.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:36 pm
by Stardust
Heh, probably everyone tried to rig it somehow. What power role did you give Pie?
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:40 pm
by Dechs Kaison
... the one I already claimed. Figured that was obvious.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:41 pm
by Stardust
And you included the "unless they're protected" part? Why?
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:44 pm
by Dechs Kaison
Because I have to target. The protection I'm aware of in a mafia game grants untargetable status.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:06 pm
by Stardust
Oh. That's not common. A normal Doctor will protect the target from kills, but they'll still be affected by everything else.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:23 pm
by Stardust
So is that actually included in the wording of your ability, or did you just assume that from some more generic wording?
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:07 pm
by RedNihilist
I swear I'll try to give a proper reread on this tomorrow.
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:37 pm
by Dechs Kaison
So is that actually included in the wording of your ability, or did you just assume that from some more generic wording?
Aren't you getting damn picky for someone with three votes and no claim?
I've played in precisely half a game before this (the one you're running right now). The wording on the one protection ability I've ever seen said that it made the player untargetable. I assumed that's how they worked.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:20 am
by Stardust
That didn't answer my question. I'll claim after one more vote.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:12 am
by Dechs Kaison
Yes I did. I just told you I made an assumption. My ability targets and I know shroud is a thing.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:50 pm
by rezombad
NOU!
I'm not scum, and I know Red's not on my team because reasons.
elaborate[/quote:
3f10ab3m]
nah
unvote vote hamfactorial
I don't buy it. If he was scum, there's no way he'd be dumb enough to slip like this. You can't even say WIFOM to it, because it's a terrible gambit.
Unvote
don't talk to me about people not being dumb enough to slip certain ways.
Right now I'm willing to lynch Wraith to test a theory, DK because the above post implies he know who is and is not scum, imopen because he isn't upsetting me.
I think that's good for now. ask me anything.
Vote Wraith
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:50 pm
by rezombad
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:55 pm
by Wraith223
NOU!
I'm not scum, and I know Red's not on my team because reasons.
elaborate
nah
unvote vote hamfactorial
I don't buy it. If he was scum, there's no way he'd be dumb enough to slip like this. You can't even say WIFOM to it, because it's a terrible gambit.
Unvote
don't talk to me about people not being dumb enough to slip certain ways.
Right now I'm willing to lynch Wraith to test a theory, DK because the above post implies he know who is and is not scum, imopen because he isn't upsetting me.
I think that's good for now. ask me anything.
Vote Wraith
After my first game as scum, do you think I would be dumb enough to pick scum in the next game?
What is your theory? Think you are taking advantage of the end game there, but maybe you are fishing for someone else?
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:55 pm
by Stardust
ask me anything.
I will ask you three things.
Can you explain that theory? I'm not convinced Wraith is town, but he's certainly leaning that way.
I don't see how DK's quote there implies he knows who's town. Reads to me that he's just doubting that ham slipped at all (though I have no idea why he'd take that stance when it's pretty clear that he did). Explain?
What do you think of Kaze?
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:56 pm
by Stardust
After my first game as scum, do you think I would be dumb enough to pick scum in the next game?
This is the worst defense I have ever heard.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:03 pm
by Wraith223
After my first game as scum, do you think I would be dumb enough to pick scum in the next game?
This is the worst defense I have ever heard.
What? When I made my request to the Mod; it crossed my mind that it would be an issue in this game. So lets play a game. Can you guess what has never happened to me in any mafia game. I chose my role around this fact.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:28 pm
by Stardust
Do you even understand how this game works, Wraith? You don't choose your alignment. The only way to do so is rig your choices so Pie is forced to lean a certain way, in which case you don't get to choose your ability.
Why would I want to play a game that outs power roles? Why would you want to reveal your role?
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:33 pm
by rezombad
ask me anything.
I will ask you three things.
Can you explain that theory? I'm not convinced Wraith is town, but he's certainly leaning that way.
I don't see how DK's quote there implies he knows who's town. Reads to me that he's just doubting that ham slipped at all (though I have no idea why he'd take that stance when it's pretty clear that he did). Explain?
What do you think of Kaze?
1. I think Wraith has a tell, and I'm not gonna say what it is until after he dies.
2. That's not what he said though.
3. Not much, I guess I could go read him.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:37 pm
by Stardust
1. This is a tell that he uses during scum games (and you saw it here), or this is a tell that he uses during town games (and it's not here)?
2. So what did he say? I already think DK is scum, but I'm just not seeing this.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:46 pm
by rezombad
1. This is a tell that he uses during scum games (and you saw it here), or this is a tell that he uses during town games (and it's not here)?
2. So what did he say? I already think DK is scum, but I'm just not seeing this.
1.It's something I noticed in gone postal and has happened in this game and not others.
2."If he was scum, there's no way he'd be dumb enough to slip like this"
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:47 pm
by rezombad
shit, clicked submit. I don't see the town motivation in saying things like this.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:56 pm
by hamfactorial
rez:
Is it an obvious tell?
Given his recent scum flip in Gone Postal, I'm less likely to be fooled by the "crazy Wraith he's so crazy" shtick and label him town by virtue of consistency. I'll take the possibility of him being scum seriously if you could point me in the right direction (without making it obvious to him so he stops doing it).
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:04 pm
by Dechs Kaison
NOU!
I'm not scum, and I know Red's not on my team because reasons.
elaborate
nah
unvote vote hamfactorial
I don't buy it. If he was scum, there's no way he'd be dumb enough to slip like this. You can't even say WIFOM to it, because it's a terrible gambit.
Right now I'm willing to lynch ... DK because the above post implies he know who is and is not scum...
I don't know who is and is not scum. My statement was Ham wouldn't say "I know he's not on my team because reasons" if he was actually scum. I had guessed that he was some kind of third party on his own, which his claim of survivor with hide ability makes sense with.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:20 pm
by Stardust
1.It's something I noticed in gone postal and has happened in this game and not others.
2."If he was scum, there's no way he'd be dumb enough to slip like this"
1. If Wraith flips scum later in the game, I would love to subscribe to your newsletter. As it is, I'm not going to lynch a town read based on meta. Maybe later.
2. Yeah, there's nothing to this. People say things like that all the time. Dechs is scum for lots of reasons, but this isn't one of them.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:41 pm
by Dechs Kaison
Dechs is scum for lots of reasons, but this isn't one of them.
Can you explain that theory? I'm not convinced Wraith is town, but he's certainly leaning that way.
I don't see how DK's quote there implies he knows who's town. Reads to me that he's just doubting that ham slipped at all (though I have no idea why he'd take that stance when it's pretty clear that he did). Explain?
What do you think of Kaze?
1. I think Wraith has a tell, and I'm not gonna say what it is until after he dies.
2. That's not what he said though.
3. Not much,
I guess I could go read him.
Nice try. The only person I know who can catch me in a lie is my sister. She can read a person good. I have triple trick her into a fork in the road decision of whether I am tricking her or tricking to trick her. She looses her shit when I do that.
I knew that Role in Gone Postal would upset this game, thus as you saw in that game, you know I plan out things way ahead in advance. Picking Scum in this game is suicide to me and would detriment to a scum team. Go ahead and read me again, but where is the evidence I am Scum as compared to others?
Now I can talk about other players from Gone Postal. Red is good, but really to aggressive to challengers. He could hide a scum agenda in this game with the aggression and it would be hard to call.
Rez looks like he playing pretty much the same>>>Town pile.
Ham is a serious toss up to me. I would
have lynched his ass in a heart beat if I was town in Gone Postal (needed to make friends). This game...I don't know now that I have played scum. I REALY don't like that he claimed Neutral. That is a gamble my gut has issues with.
DK is hard to call as his play style is only known to me by one game where we worked together(ish). This game has him in my town pile for being falsely demanded a role by stardust.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:43 pm
by Stardust
Just kidding. I was thinking about making a proper case anyway just in case I'm nightkilled and everyone forgets to lynch you somehow. So here. We. Go!
Dechs Kaison
Unvote - RVS just doesn't seem right.
Stardust - What role did you choose?
This is where it all begins. I didn't like this one for two reasons: 1) Asking for my role for no reason, and 2) Being uncomfortable about voting. Townies usually feel free to mess around a bit in RVS - even newbies don't worry about it even if they don't understand it. It's much more often the scum that you see being uncomfortable voting at random (voting no lynch, voting at random, that sort of thing).
Apparently he
asked me about my role "to start getting reads". It's no secret that this really bugged me, primarily because he didn't follow up in the slightest. Instead, he seems more inclined to throw dirt my way for dodging the question.
Then he votes Red with no explanation (putting him to L-1). Then he unvotes, apparently missing the entire conversation
between Red and me about how Red was at L-2 (ie: did Dechs read Red's posts before voting?). Then he revotes saying that "Anyone who lynches Red is obvious scum" which is not exactly a slip, but odd wording coming from a townie, I think.
Here's the deal: Someone has to get lynched for the town to actually have anything to go on. Even a mislynch helps because with a body we get a role PM and a wagon to analyze.
Right now you're at L-1. I don't think you'll get hammered because a hammer this quickly is just like waving a flag that says "I'm scum." It's a trap for the scum in this game.
Then again, you are at L-1. You're going to have to claim something. With any
luck, it's something verifiable, we'll all back down and look for someone else and figure out how to get you to verify your shit tonight. You need to be willing to claim, though. It shows you can commit to something and that's a town thing.
This post continues with that thought process. He's basically advocating for Red's mislynch, making it quite clear that he believes Red is town. In the same post, we see Dechs asking for Red's role anyway. Advocating mislynches for information is scummy enough, but this post goes a step further. The disconnect in Dechs' thinking is really obvious here.
Red cases Dechs. Dechs responds:
Those are actually very fair points.
But guess what; I'm screwed either way now. If I just rescind the vote again, then I look even worse. I have to commit to something,
somewhere, so how about this. Give me something and I'll pull my vote. I don't want a full claim, I just want to know what role and alignment combo you asked for.
Red has a good case on Dechs. This solidifies Dechs' town read and makes him want to unvote? Excuse me? Dechs isn't at all worried about about Red's alignment (I would say "anymore" but he never really was), he's worried about how he looks. Again he makes it clear he thinks Red is town. Again he asks for a claim anyway (backing off the full claim for reasons no townie would follow), but this time begging Red for something to make Dechs look better. Awful.
Unvotes a bit later and tells Kaze to fuck off because he's being manipulative. No mention of whether that makes Kaze scum though.
In the very next post, Dechs soft claims. He's at two votes. Townies can soft claim, but not like this. This is desperation. That desperation continues in his multi-post with him asking us to lynch him. Standard scum tactic, really, and one Dechs himself made use of in Gone Postal.
Votes Kaze which kicks off the little spat I highlighted in my case on Kaze. As I said there, neither of them ever revisit this despite having it come to no real conclusion. They are very likely scum buddies.
I'm bugging him for his full claim, he's reluctant to give it. This is odd considering he was so excited to give a partial claim - though not so odd from a scum perspective when you consider the fact that he's under less pressure now and feels like he has a better handle on the game.
Hey Stardust, can you give me a serious answer to my first question now that I gave you my full claim?
It's only fair...
After the full claim Dechs goes back to asking for my role. At this point he doesn't suspect me in the slightest (he followed me onto the Wraith wagon, in fact). So WTF?
Then we move on to neutral hunting (a strong scum tell), though he does actually have a reasonable argument to back this.
And finally to my wagon. I'm not going to recount the whole story, but suffice to say Dechs is coming on way too strong for someone who has repeatedly reminded us that he's a newbie. Reminds me of Gone Postal in the final days (now that I can reference that game).
So there you have it.
Thanks for making me do this, Dechs. This case is actually extremely strong. Strong enough that I think I'd rather lynch you than Kaze, despite the cop claim.
Unvote, Vote Dechs.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:55 pm
by Dechs Kaison
I get it. You're afraid that I am a cop and that I'm going to investigate you tonight. Fine. Hang me. When I flip town, you guys need to hang Scumdust.
NOU! 
