Dies to Removal

German is the language of hate

And fire is the language of love so it all evens out.

Fire isn't a language

Fire is what comes out of my ass after eating Taco Bell.

So basically, when I sling Bolts at people, I just imagine myself as a big German-speaking monkey throwing Taco Bell shit at another person until they die from it.

I prefer Pillar over Mindbreak Trap because it's useful in multiple matchups. Trap is only good against combo. I always favor flexible options, especially in a deck like mono red where options are generally limited.

Seems the list above didn't run Grim Lavamancer because he didn't run fetches, and not that he consciously decided to build his deck around not using Lavamancer. I feel that decks running him are superior to those that don't, and furthermore I think it helps to run 12 creatures to increase the number of creature threats that must be answered in the deck.

On a personal note, I ordered
foil Bolts, Fireblasts, and 12 matching FAL Mountains last week. Getting closer to an iced out Burn deck that I'll rarely pilot! Still need three foil Goblin Guide, four Eidolon (man, did those shoot up quick), three Sulfuric Vortex (those got printed in foil in Conspiracy), four Rift Bolt, four Lava Spike, and four Searing Blaze (the last three are pretty cheap). Hopefully the Onslaught fetches get reprinted in Khans so those are easy to acquire in foil as well!

I have extra foil Rift Bolt and Lava Spikes...

We may talk soon...

I prefer Pillar over Mindbreak Trap because it's useful in multiple matchups. Trap is only good against combo. I always favor flexible options, especially in a deck like mono red where options are generally limited.

Seems the list above didn't run Grim Lavamancer because he didn't run fetches, and not that he consciously decided to build his deck around not using Lavamancer. I feel that decks running him are superior to those that don't,
and furthermore I think it helps to run 12 creatures to increase the number of creature threats that must be answered in the deck.

On a personal note, I ordered foil Bolts, Fireblasts, and 12 matching FAL Mountains last week. Getting closer to an iced out Burn deck that I'll rarely pilot! Still need three foil Goblin Guide, four Eidolon (man, did those shoot up quick), three Sulfuric Vortex (those got printed in foil in Conspiracy), four Rift Bolt, four Lava Spike, and four Searing Blaze (the last three are pretty cheap). Hopefully the Onslaught fetches get reprinted in Khans so those are easy to acquire in foil as well!

I have extra foil Rift Bolt and Lava Spikes...

We may talk soon...

The burn i use is full foil and full promos (of cards that can have either option)

)))

Now you think you're better than us? Big whoop, wanna fight about it?

family guy is so good.

Hello Gentlemen.

I've read through the thread, thought I'd give my two cents, and bravo to my fellow Red mages for keeping the fire alive.

Now what would make this thread greater? More pictures of course. This is how you ball.




Yes. Those Legacy Mountains are sharpied. That's how us true ballers on a budget get down. That dual land of yours just got caved in by a marked basic land from 1994. The decks featured there are Purphoros EDH, Boss Sligh, Fanatic Mono Red, RW Yasooka Burn, Pauper Goblins, and Legacy Burn. Note the Russian Dragon Mantles, Japanese 4th Edition Lightning Bolts, Plethora of Foils, Zendi Halo Mountains, and of course the ubiquitous alphabetized box of Red cards. Ah, sexytime explosion. Make your opponents feel you coming my friends,
and prepare the car fire for them to burn in.

I've played a lot of Legacy in the past including Burn in big tournaments, but for the last few years my focus has been mainly Standard. I did well in a Legacy tournament last night losing in the Finals with Burn, and Khaospawn + Zemanjaski mentioned DTR many times so I figured I'd try to contribute more. I'm going to go over my thoughts on the deck I played last night which is similar to what you've been discussing, because I'd like to get even more interplay going here on card discussion and have some specific questions.

The deck I played -

Burn by Forrest Ashmore (9th Place SCG Portland Open - You're all familiar as you've discussed it, I only swapped out the bridges for riders because I'm too poor atm)-
[deck]Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Enchantments
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
3 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4
Rift Bolt

Basic Lands
20 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Searing Blood
2 Smash to Smithereens[/deck]

Maindeck

Goblin Guide - A given four-of.

Eidolon of the Great Revel - I mean, he's already become one of my favorite Red cards in literally every format outside of Pauper and EDH. I think he single-handidly gave Burn players a much better percentage against many combo matchups along with giving an incremental advantage against grindy creature matchups like Delver and Stoneforge decks. A lot of you on here were talking with worry about Flame Rift alongside of him. Don't worry my dear friends, You can take the burn when you can dish the fire out faster. I think Flame Rift is perfectly fine in this deck alongside of him. I think a lot of people undervalue how important Flame Rift is. One of you mentioned the fact that Burn is a combo deck on here, and it's important to
remember that point. You will certainly have games where the card is awful, but that goes for many of the cards in your deck and any combo deck.

Sulfuric Vortex - Vortex is always an interesting card for Burn. Its seen swapping in and out of many lists, and largely the metagame will determine its usefulness. Legacy though is about as wide open as it comes with regards to metagame, and it's especially local-based considering that people make large investments into the format and can't hop decks easily. Personally, I think Vortex couldn't be stronger, and while being three mana will always suck, its effect on the game is stronger than anything else you can do. The truly hurtful cards, as many of you have been discussing, are Batterskull, Jitte, and other cards that pull you out of a game. It's great against non-interactive decks like Miracles and Lands because it fights them along a different axis forcing them to come up with answers that go against what they were expecting or that require them
to double-tap their resources. Creatures function along similar lines to those decks as well which is why Eidolon is so fantastic right now in my opinion. For Vortex, I like the 2-of in this maindeck, and have a half a thought to bring over the third from the sideboard, but these lists are so tight it's hard to cut cards.

Fireblast - Truly the glue that makes Legacy Burn work. In a format where a card like Force of Will exists along with other incredibly unfair things, us Red mages need some weaponry of our own.

Lightning Bolt - Yes.

Price of Progress - A lot of the talk about this card here is deserved. Too many Legacy players IMO just auto-comment that it's a given, so I'm glad to see that you guys are actually debating it. I think the reason it gets shoved as a 4-of in so many lists is that it's good against a great portion of the field and against popular decks that are a struggle sometimes to deal with. BUT, I'd really like to see this slot at least playtested with more. I actually
thought about running Skullcrack in this slot last night, which I saw one of you bring up as well. I think the raw power loss is a bit much to lose out on this spell, but I think it's one of those slots where the status-quo of "well someone better than me has tested everything already" is bullcrap. It can have its moments, against decks limited with basics, stuff like 12-Post (which I played last night), and just overall fine in general, but there's no reason to do a round robin of cards here and gather some statistical data. I don't mean you hop off the forum one night and hop on the next day. I mean like a 100 game sample or two. One thing in particular I always like to do in testing is mark cards that I'm considering for other things, it helps me keep track better than my terrible memory and it makes you focus on those game states better. It's a card that people actively play around, so I feel it should be actively tested.

Searing Blaze - Having this maindeck seems largely due to
the popularity of Delver and Stoneforge decks. It's probably the right decision, considering that the metagame is more creature-y and less combo-y than a few months ago, but the numbers will probably have to fluctuate rapidly based on results. I don't mind x3 Maindeck, but I don't support the x4 action. It's dead against a fair number of decks. Forrest's 3/3 split with Blood is perfectly reasonable to me.

Chain Lightning - Next.

Flame Rift - It's one of the few cards that gets around targeted problems like Leyline and it's pure efficiency at 4 damage for 2 mana which is what this combo deck relies on. I think this has to be a 3 or 4 of, and to me it's a matter of time put in with the deck to understand that. One of the posters here asked about that, saying if mileage would help understand it better and in my opinion yes it will. There are correct times to play and not play this card, times to not get frustrated when it isn't appropriate, etc. I rarely side it out, although there are
occasions, because it's rare outside of combo that another deck is racing faster than you.

Lava Spike - Honestly, as efficient as this is, Lava Spike is one of the cards that I take out a fair amount. It's another pure efficiency spell, but it can't hit creatures and it's less damage than Flame Rift. Yes, I realize Flame Rift damages you, but 4 vs 3 is a big deal in a deck counting to 20. There's something to be said for chaining one mana spells in one turn though too. Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not advocating to take Lava Spike out "all the time", it's very good in this deck but it's a consideration at times to remove.

Rift Bolt - I misplayed this last night and was kicking myself, forgetting in a crucial moment that it was CMC=3 instead of 1. Always have loved this spell though, it's a great "play around things" card. Most of the time it's one of the first spells you want to jam, but there are options in different games. The importance of turn playing I
think is hyper-emphasized in a fantastic article by our hero P.Sully here if you haven't read it -
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/stan ... eport.html

This one too-

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/stan ... eport.html

20 Mountain - I personally like running x8 fetch better, I just haven't been able to afford them again. I sold about 10K worth of cards 4-5 years ago and haven't been able to fully build back since then. Buddies of mine can lend them, but I prefer not to borrow when I can avoid it. Thankfully last night this basic-count worked fine, and obviously it took Forrest to a nice finish.

Sideboard

Ensnaring Bridge - This to me is the best choice because it stops
just about any of the big creatures that Show and Tell or Sneak Attack would drop in play, but it's a permanent which they can deal with. I mean, those kind of matches are just really bad to begin with, so there's not much you can do. I was playing Ashen Rider last night due to budget reasons, but in the past have played Bridge. The Ashen Rider thing is cute, but I feel like there's something I'm missing that can be played around with it. I imagine most S&T opponents are prepared for this too, so it's always worth some research to see if something else provides curious value.

Relic of Progenitus - I'm with you guys on this boat. I'm glad that Khaospawn brought up that the reason it seems to be played is due to a trend from an SCG Indy list, because I personally haven't logged enough games to understand why this is #1 right now. I love the incremental value it provides against Goyf and Deathrite decks, but I feel a bit worried against Dredge and Reanimator with this card. I also feel it'
s wildly incorrect to not include any graveyard hate as I've seen some of the lists around here feature. Unless your metagame is just extremely abnormal, you're usually bound to run into something that requires some intervention. The graveyard is another axis which is at opposition with normal lines of play, so I think anything going on with it is usually the equivalent of broken. I personally have used Faerie Macabre back in the good old extended days, but I agree with some of the posters here that I wouldn't side it in against Goyf decks, nor Tormod's Crypt, so maybe that's why Relic is present. There is also credence to the point that the "graveyard" decks don't always go off turn 1, but the combination of a slow graveyard hate spell along with only two copies is a bit irksome.

Vexing Shusher - I really want a third Shusher in the board, possibly a 4th. Miracles is popular in my area and is popular in general at the moment, and you really need this piece to fight them better.
Depending on build I don't think the matchup is that bad, but it's also not great, especially if they get their pieces online early. This card was also instrumental for me in fighting RUG Delver at SCG Opens, despite the fact that it's killable. There's just a number of places where he's useful and where his ability is more relevant than a 1-time Pyroblast that doesn't give you repeat use nor damage.

Pyrostatic Pillar - I think having x6 of this effect in the deck is honestly really sweet since this whole format revolves around 3 CMC or less, but I wonder if there's room to shave x1 of them for something else since the numbers are so tight. Seems like it's possible despite this being a good card against so much.

Searing Blood - Honestly despite what naysayers might say, I think this card is a really nice sideboard. It's honestly better in quite a few situations than Searing Blaze (although not on the whole) and it's a card I'd much rather have against Delver than Pyroblast or REB.
Anyone who's played Standard or Modern with this card knows how absolutely absurd it is, and not having to have landfall (especially in Forrest's non-fetch version) is fantastic. I saw a lot of the lists on here ran 4 Blaze and 4 Blood, but in a format as open as Legacy I don't believe that you have the room to make this concession. x6 of a great card is already enough to see multiples or see it with regularity.

Smash to Smithereens - I think everyone on this forum has made the relevant points about this card. It gets around Chalice for 1, it actually functions as a burn spell when it comes in to replace one, and you rarely need to kill a large amount of artifacts except against matchups that you already have a good grip on.

I'll try to get back at any comments as soon as I can, it's hard for me to find time but I like this forum a lot. Good work guys and girls.

Excellent post, redbro!

To bring back the grave hate discussion, I noticed that Oops All Spells was in the Top 8 of the Open where Forrest's list came from. That's definitely a matchup where you want the Macabre instead of Relic.

Just an observation though.

The burn i use is full foil and full promos (of cards that can have either option)

)))

Me too, with textless lightning bolts.

You guys are gay homosexuals. I suspect that all of this talk of promo Lightning Bolts is just some underground slang for penis.

I have 4 penises, and they go upstairs for 3.

AND they look fabulous.

Better double sleeve that shit.

IT is

Anyone grinding Legacy burn online (do they even fire)?

How is burn faring for you guys, is burn easier to play in legacy then it is in Modern?

I do when I get around to it. I tend to do very well as long as I don't die on turn 1-2. I wouldn't say it was easier or harder, just different. There is less lifegain and more ways to fight it. You need to be much more wary of free spells in Legacy, so our lines differ a good bit. You will likely do fine once you get used to the meta in either format since you played so much in Standard and a bit in Modern.

I'm mainly playing in the TP room (RL is making grinding really tricky right now) but Burn is great fun to play in Legacy and I've found the players INCREDIBLY friendly and helpful. Borrow the deck for a bit if ya like and have a play

Burn in Top 8 at SCG Worcester.

[deck]Creatures (11)

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)

12 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn

Spells (29)

2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens

[/deck]

Firedancer. Damn.

Sooo many differences in this build. Wow. I like the manabase.

The pilot is 13 years old! And Patrick Sullivan gave him a pep talk: Kill your opponent with Burn!

Kid is 13 and dropped Ross Merriam with those Firedancers. He might be on to something. We might want to recruit him.

Kid is 13 and dropped Ross Merriam with those Firedancers. He might be on to something. We might want to recruit him.

He's done better than me.

Love how Cedric called him the Young Pyromancer lol

And the poor kid gets dropped by naturally drawn one-of Batterskulls each game. Heartbreaking.

He's basically running Firedancer instead of Searing Blood. I don't know which is better.

It depends on how much time you have. Firedancer is reusable and lets your Searing Blaze kill most Tarmogoyfs, but takes longer to set up. Blood is fantastic against things like Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman where they have to die immediately. I know he brought it in against Elves and had great success with it. It would also likely work well against Goblins. I think it is too slow and vulnerable against decks that have Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt though.

What I mean is that I don't know which card increases your percentages the most across the meta in postboard matches. It's obvious that Firedancer is the better card in a matchup where you play control, but is it actually necessary? In the matchups you'd want this card (Elves, Goblins, Maverick, D&T, etc) is having Eidolon not enough? My initial opinion is that a deck with Eidolon in the 75 just wants to get 'em dead and that makes Searing Blood the better choice.

I am inclined to agree. However, he had both Eidolon and Firedancer in that deck. Since he already has Searing Blaze, it may be correct to play Firedancer if you are expecting a "fair" meta. He had no graveyard hate in his sideboard so I assume that is how he found room.

I am inclined to agree. However, he had both Eidolon and Firedancer in that deck. Since he already has Searing Blaze, it may be correct to play Firedancer if you are expecting a "fair" meta. He had no graveyard hate in his sideboard so I assume that is how he found room.

The only problem with that is that there is a tension between Eidolon and Firedancer. He certainly wasn't boarding out Eidolon for Elves, so what was he taking out to make room for the Firedancers? Maybe the Goblin Guides? That would be the best option in my mind because you need to keep the spell count high for Firedancer to remain an optimal choice.

I would expect that he cut the Guides as well. They almost never get through blockers anyway unless you have already been clearing his board.

Idk how these decks can beat a Leyline of Sanctity without flamerift

With Eidolon, I have found that I have an easier time against Leyline since it often hits for more than 4 in longer games. Granted I also run a few more creatures than average with Keldon Marauders and Vexing Devil to assist.

And the poor kid gets dropped by naturally drawn one-of Batterskulls each game. Heartbreaking.

Idk how these decks can beat a Leyline of Sanctity without flamerift

Might see play in all of 5% of Legacy decklists?

Top 5 decks running Leyline: 12-post (1.59%), NO Depths (0.95%), Manaless Dredge (0.63%), Affinity (0.63%), Nic Fit (0.63%).

Source: mtggoldfish.com

INB4 paper meta different than online meta. My point stands. The above five decks are not major players in the paper Legacy metagame.