[Primer] Boros Burn

[Purp]

God I better not play against Conley Woods bullshit again tonight

[TubeHunter]

Solution: play a real deck

[Purp]

I think we all have results that disagree with you.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Burn isn't a real deck. You all are just dumb.

You aren't a real deck!

[Khaospawn]

I am not sure if want to cut FDS yet. A t1 FDs into T2 Ash is usually an auto win vs control.

But it's a fucking terrible top deck after T2, and in this deck there aren't really any bad top decks other than that card...

I disagree, Keith. It's a must answer threat at any point in the game vs control and durdle decks. It's even better late game since you have all the manas to make him bigger. The only time I didn't like to see him was when there was an active Espeth pooping out tokens. But, hey, what are ya gonna do in that situation, right? At that point you just
want to burn them out before she ultimates.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Maybe it was just because I sided it vs Mono Black, but without any back up, he was poop. Just demon fodder.

[Khaospawn]

Maybe it was just because I sided it vs Mono Black, but without any back up, he was poop. Just demon fodder.

Oh yeah, against Mono Black, he's just meh. I didn't side him in against Black, ever. The thing about the Mono Black (and by extension the B/w and B/g variants), is that they just assume you're on little aggro and board in more kill spells - Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight. At that point, it's just even worse to have FDS in the deck.

I tried some weird stuff out against MBC decks during the PTQ. I did what Z recommended in those matches, -3 Shock, +3 Chains. The first time I played against Black, I kept Firedancer in the main for game 2, but I learned the hard way that it was just gonna die very easily. The next time I faced Black,
I boarded in the Chains like I was supposed too, but I also yanked the Firedancer and put in Spark Troopers. You just have to be mindful when you play it - preferable when they are tapped out after playing a fresh demon.

[Purp]

Spark Troopers vs Black seems bad.

-3 Shock -1 Mj -1 Searing Blood +2 Chains +3 Viashino Firstblade with new list is what I do.

[Khaospawn]

Spark Troopers vs Black seems bad.

-3 Shock -1 Mj -1 Searing Blood +2 Chains +3 Viashino Firstblade with new list is what I do.

Tell me why. Just declaring it is bad doesn't mean that it is. Please explain.


I wonder why you play the Firstblade in that match. It doesn't come out early like Zealot can, it doesn't have evasion like Phoenix does, and it can't kill a demon and deal a lot of damage/gain a bunch of life like Spark Trooper can.

[Purp]

Instant speed removal is why I don't bring in Spark Trooper. You are tapping 4 mana and hoping it gets through. Sure you could argue waiting for them to to tap out, which would be for a DD or Gary, at which point I'd argue Chaining the demon for 1 mana is a better and more efficient play.

Viashano kills everything in their deck except demon(combos niceley with searing blood on demon) the turn it comes down. Could be a matter of preference, but typically Mono B players put us on a faster aggro and board in more kill spells. Thus they are more likely to have mana up the turn you play Spark... and I have tested it plenty. Never have I wish I had spark trooper in. I think I am something like 9-1 vs mono b with this list in events not including Cockatrice.

[Khaospawn]

[quote="Purp » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:35 am"]Instant speed removal is why I don't bring in Spark Trooper. You are tapping 4 mana and hoping it gets through. Sure you could argue waiting for them to to tap out, which would be for a DD or Gary, at which point I'd argue Chaining the demon for 1 mana is a better and more efficient play.

Viashano kills everything in their deck except demon(combos niceley with searing blood on demon) the turn it comes down. Could be a matter of preference, but typically Mono B players put us on a faster aggro and board in more kill spells. Thus they are more likely to have mana up the turn you play Spark... and I have tested it plenty. Never have I wish I had spark trooper in. I think I am something like 9-1 vs mono b with this list in events not including Cockatrice.[/quote:
3r5so4um]
Instant speed removal affects Firstblade all the same. Saying something 'dies to removal' isn't s strong enough argument.

Agreed on that timing is everything when playing these creatures. You don't want to run Firstblade or the Trooper into a Black player with mana up. Personally, I've found that the best time to play the Trooper is when they tap out for Specter (works when you're on the play) or when they tap out for a demon.

With the Firstblade, if they take the 4 damage (say on turn 3 or 4), they could just as easily follow up with a Gary and then just block the poor Viashino all day. Granted, this is a 'what-if' scenario, but it's usually the fate of Ash Zealot sometimes after turn 3 or 4 - it just hangs back doing nothing until I can get a hold of a Searing Blood or something.

[Purp]

4 mana dies to removal vs 3 mana dies to removal is my argument, and I am sticking to it.

I am not saying you are wrong to board in spark trooper, but I think its unnecessary and can ultimately cause more harm than good in a matchup we are already favored in.

[Khaospawn]

4 mana dies to removal vs 3 mana dies to removal is my argument, and I am sticking to it.

Sounds to me like you just want to be ignorant and/or close-minded. But hey, to each their own. Who am I to tell you any differently?

But there's just one flaw in your argument: it's not just simply a 3cmc or 4cmc creature that 'dies to removal'. Each card impacts the game differently and you fail to recognize that. I believe one has better results with less drawback than the other.

Maybe you just play differently than I do. Whatevs. I just can't fathom why you can be so close-minded at times.

[Khaospawn]

Unfortunately, I don't think either one of us is 'right' either. There may be a better choice out there we haven't found yet. But overall, I think we're favored in the MBC match anyway. We're probably arguing over something as trivial as 'which fast food is better when you're drunk at 3 am.' You may be a Wendy's man to my Taco Bell.

Also, if my earlier post sounds harsh, that's not really my intention, but I'd be lying if most of it wasn't my first reaction to reading your post. I'm not going to edit it. I believe that honest assessment and words are for the good of everything.

[Purp]

Let's just agree that Mono B is easy as shit no matter how you board.

You do one thing, I do another.

[Khaospawn]

Let's just agree that Mono B is easy as shit no matter how you board.

You do one thing, I do another.

Fair enough, sir.

[Elricity]

Khaos, Spark Trooper can be awkward vs mono black because you only have 19 colored lands but need 3 colored mana symbols. First blade only needs two which means it's a more consistant drop on curve while they're likely already tapped out or needing to cast a kill spell anyway. Also, first blade sticks around and how often do you need the lifegain vs black?

While it depends on the config of the 75, I would always bring in firstblade first against traditional black devotion, at least on the play. If you're on the draw and feel you're going to be more on defense vs demon drops, I can see spark trooper maybe.

You may not like the d2r argument but d2r on turn 3 vs turn 4 is actually very relevant. We've never boarded in stormbreath dragons vs black after all.

[Khaospawn]

I would very much like some life gain after they've played a Gary or 2. Connecting with a Trooper after they've tapped out to play a Gray Merchant of turn 5 is pretty good.

[Khaospawn]

Besides, aren't we usually on the draw in Game 2 anyway?

[Khaospawn]

Also, there's no need to even bring up the dragon in the first place since (A) we're not playing it, and (B) whether or not Black has the necessary removal for Stormbreath in the first place, it could be chump blocked and killed by a Desecration Demon anyhow. There was never a good time to play Stormbreath against Mono Black, unless you were rocking the Nykthos Devotion deck in Game 1.

[Khaospawn]

Besides, Ericity, why you bringing up old shit? I thought this 'argument' was over?

[Elricity]

Because I think the general merits of the two should be discussed since they functionally are quite different cards. Wasn't lacking that discussion why the argument was dropped?

I have experience playing both vs black in the last couple of weeks and mostly, I want to see if I've been making correct decisions and, if I have, share them to help other red players.

My general gameplan is to try to get them back against the wall so that if they try to play demon or gary, it can't save them. I've played the slower burn version that tries to hold cards in hand versus black and from my experience, it's not as solid a game plan as wearing war paint and a kilt. Unless I'm missing something, that is the goal of Z's deck against the entire midrange field. Hence, my preference of firstblade over spark trooper vs black in a vacuum.

Edit: I need to actually proofread my stuff before hitting submit instead of editting 3 times
hoping someone hasn't read it yet.

TL;DR: Nothing personal, I'm just chatting and being opinionated.

[Elricity]

Also, while I'm on the opinion train, I actually like firedrinker satyr vs black. I'll take 3-4 to trade with specter and gary any day. I'm also mainboarding it though.

Then again, the mono black players I go up against go heavy duress/thoughtsieze sideboard instead of creature kill. I'm "that burn deck guy" at both my LGS so there's no real surprise other than deciding whether to go into Z mode or MDU mode week to week. If you're meta is drown in filth happy, then FDS gets far less good.

[Purp]

I dont like bringing in FDS anymore because I have already cut 5 cards vs black to bring in chains and firstblade... I want 4 of every other burn spell

[zemanjaski]

Ill type sonething detailed when I get a chance, but short notes:
- Viashino > Spark Trooper because it's cheaper and the 2/2 body affects their subsequent plays; they can't ignore it. If they leave a guy to block it your effectively removing a creature.
- main board isn't a word. Stop using it.

[Khaospawn]

I plan on playing FNM on Friday and there's a lot of Mono Black there (which explains why I win so often there ). I will try the Firstblade in those games.

You guys bring up good points, even though I do sound argumentative about it. I'm not completely convinced that Firstblade is completely better than the Trooper, but I'd rather try these things myself than to continue to sit upon my Iron Throne of Awesomeness.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one that cringes after reading the word "mainboard. "

[Self Medicated]

- main board isn't a word. Stop using it.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one that cringes after reading the word "mainboard. "

I always use "main deck".

[zenbitz]

I like the 2x Chained back to the main [strike]board[/strike] deck.

I am a uniter not a divider so what about 3 FDS, 2 VFB, 2 Sparky Lyle? I think there are some faster decks we will miss Spark Trooper against. But I don't have the mutavault-related mana issues, either. (yay?).

I am going to miss Toil//Trouble, though. Not enough to actually play it.

What is our board vs. UW control with the 3.0 list?
-2 chained +3 VFB +4 FDS -4 Searing Blood -1 shock?

And esper we have to be a little concerned with the bloody baron so:
-2 chained -4 shock +4 FDS +2 VFB Wait... searing blood without firedancer doesn't really help us vs. BBoV does it... We just have to 2-for-1 ourselves.

BW mid is same as MBD whatever that settles into.

[Jonnymagic]

I've liked having the firstblade vs mono b in the limited testing I've done after the PTQ -- and I'm the world's biggest spark trooper fan. Its an awkward card vs mono B in general AND they can sometimes board in lifebane zombie against us thinking we have some white guys. If they grab him on a zombie its a blowout. Mono B is all about ripping their face off as quickly as possible and saving that wonderful skull crack for gary if they don't duress it away like the jerks they are.

[Jonnymagic]

searing blood is actually not terrible vs u/w -- due to tokens and muta. They are (in my opinion) better than shock in that matchup. Shock is honestly only relevant as early creature removal (g/r elf and t2 pack rat on the draw type deals), and OCCASIONALLY to finish off the last 2 points of damage.

[Elricity]

- main board isn't a word. Stop using it.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one that cringes after reading the word "mainboard. "

I always use "main deck".

That's probably the correct term. Don't know where I picked up the other one.

Also, nothing wrong with sounding argumentative. Don't we all assume we're just debating points? I'd personally rather not have to throw in a
bunch of unnecessary pleasantries.

[Chma]

I quit standard completely after theros-standard stabilized. After watching zem on CBF I had to pick the deck up and give it a whirl. This deck is seriously the bee's knees.

That's all.

[Mr. Metronome]

I took the list from the CFB article to a local $1k, did alright with it. I went 4-3, with 2 of my losses coming at the very end.

I won vs Mono Black, Jund Monsters, BW Midrange, and Esper Control.

My 3 losses were GR Monsters, BW Midrange, and RDW.

BW felt like a pretty bad matchup with my board plan of -3 shock +3 chained to the rocks, given that the only creatures he actually played against me were Obzedat and Blood Baron...

Any better ideas?

[Jedi_Knight]

Coming from R/w and currently RB I am trying to get a hold of this when I have some time since the deck seems liek built on very solid foundation. But I must admit I am having terrible problems getting hold of how to play and when to go to the dome and when to trade. The ingame math here is much more complex than in the creature based decks since like zem said the dmg value of any spell is finite.

For now, I am getting about 50/50 against anything except GRx and UWx. GRx I got a hold of kinda, but the UWx matchup depends on constant pressure (once again just what was said in the article) which can present a problem if you play this deck for the first time... or at least first few games.

Learning how to play this is much harder than the other things being brewed here.

[Lightning_Dolt]

BW seems hard to me too. I don't like chains really since their creature base is:

Pack Rat (use burn)
Lifebane Zombie (use burn)
Desecration Demon (want chains)
Blood Baron ( must use burn)
Obzedat (must use burn / BO)

I don't think it has enough targets. Next time I play against them I'll be boarding in Firedancer and we'll see how that goes.

I also am having a hard time with why BO isn't MD? It seems like we want it vs everything.

[Lightning_Dolt]

This?

[deck]Creatures (8)
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments (4)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Blind Obedience

Instants(25)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

Land (23)
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Satyr Firedancer
4 Viashino Firstblade
2 Burning Earth[/deck]

[Lightning_Dolt]

Board count be +1 SFD, -1 VFB.

[zemanjaski]

I like that a lot, nice work.

I can reveal that I have played 51 games with my current iteration of the deck, going 62% Game 1, and 58% after sidebording; with a 58.8% win rate against the field. If we exclude GR Monsters, that climbs to a 64% winrate...

[zemanjaski]

I keep in 2 chained vs BW but don't bring in any more. Too loose against their creature base.

[Lightning_Dolt]

What other cards do you bring in?

Do you have a SB plan worked out for it?