Dies to Removal

Has he been lynched as scum in any other completed games?

Nope, I've been scum only in Fire and Ice.

I'm backing off because I think Rez is more likely scum at this point

-Even if you find that he's the better lynch, a vote on rezombad is effectively a no lynch vote - he hasn't sparked my ire, and there's no way a wagon will happen on him today.

Players shouldn't be particularly picky on who they lynch as long as the lynch has a decent chance that they flip scum. You should push on a wagon you believe to be on town, yes, but you shouldn't talk ourselves in circles arguing who is most likely to be scum (which we are doing right now).

I have no idea why players are getting off on him for the claim. -Watching mail is a fairly "scummy" ability (as scum won't need to send mail - they can communicate with each other) and I
could imagine it's a easy fakeclaim for a mail wiretapper or interceptor to make. His in-thread behavior is awful as well.

-Wouldn't surprise me if posts 450-460 is an implosion from RedNihilist.

Lynch Vote: RedNihilist

the thing about his claim is that it's something confirmable

last time I brought this logic up I got yelled at because "IT'S NOT CONFIRMED HE COULD BE SCUM LYING HURR DURR"

but yeah, he's either a town or scum watcher (dunno why scum random-role would claim watcher for no reason?) so he'll have to claim something tomorrow, which could be nifty.

I'll vote him if it gets too close to deadline but if there's any way we can get another wagon up I'd be happy with that (no imopen we're NOT lynching rez shut up)

"last time" being Theros Mafia iirc?

lynch rez, he's the only other viable option at this point

Make a case then.

raspy, are you scum with ham?

No.

Tell me something more about this, please.

Lolwut

Well, I've asked him if the both of him and ham are scum and he just answered "No".
I hoped in something more, honestly.
Have you ever worked with boolean algebra?

You should try not asking loaded questions.

Point taken.
Can I ask you, though, why do you think I asked him such a question?

So that if he answered poorly you could save your own ass. Because you are either scum or convinced that rcw is despite presenting no case.

Make a case then.

Irony, tells people to make a case on others, never makes a case on me

Answer my fucking questions.

oh you mean this?

So then why did you respond to:

Tell me about imopen

There are multiple questions, that's why I took the time to hit the fucking 's' key in my previous post.

So that if he answered poorly you could save your own ass. Because you are either scum or convinced that rcw is despite presenting no case.

There is no ass to be saved in my case, everything I'm doing is meant to be reviewed after my lynch.

*Back from work*

So, I'm at L-3 after imopen unvoted me.
Scum's plan at this time can either consist in taking this whole mess to day 2 without a lynch, or they lack the numbers to hammer me.
I stand under the assumption that CP is town (duh) and Wraith is as well, I expect scum team to be a 3 man team at least, and that means that if they wanted to mislynch me they could have done multiple times by now - but only if my wagon is clear of scum.

That leaves me with raspy and ham.

Now, let's go with a wild hypothesis:

vote hamfactorial

RVS vote. Ok.

so I count 4 votes on Ham? Is that correct? Mine was RVS but I'll keep it until Ham posts something town-ish.

He remembers us all his vote was RVS. He's troubled by the quick wagon.
He doesn't want to take back his vote straight away (it'd be suspicious), but he assures he will do so as soon as ham starts behaving "correctly".

Wraith, why is Ham hard to read? What posts are troubling you?

"Let's try to manipulate a confused, overactive town player and his view on ham."

(Yes, I'm keeping up with the assumption that Wraith is insane town.)

Good morning fellows. I've been reading along over the weekend, looking forward to what rez has to say about Jack. Any requests or questions for me?

Why are you sitting back waiting for people to ask you questions instead of asking other people questions?

It's like you've adopted the position of prey. Town are supposed to be HUNTERS!!!

"Come on ham, be more townish!"

My current thoughts are that Rez is either town or taking a huge risk if he's scum. Why would scum come out so hard day 1 and push a case like this? Day 1 scum usually like to lie as low as possible. So rez is either town who caught a scent (whether he's right or wrong) or scum doing a lot to act town, which is risky.

However, if I
think Rez is town that doesn't automatically mean Ham is scum. Rez can be wrong. But Ham REALLY has not been helping his case.

That said, Wraith and Pie seem townie to me so far, and neither of them like Rez's case.

@Ham: please do more to prove you're town or I'm re-voting you.

Now, what would be the point in instructing ham on how to come out of quicksand?

To which ham responds with:

Raspy:

I cannot prove that I'm town, but I'll make more effort to analyze interactions once the prods come back and result in words.

Regarding rez, I've decided that he's fallen victim to tunneling if he's town. Reading his PBPA suggests that he strongly correlates spam with scum, and his definition of spam is any post that doesn't help town. The first half of my posting history is pointless
nonsense during RVS, followed by passive aggressive eye rolling and hand waiving at him for pushing my wagon.

If he's scum, he's teeing up a good day 1 mislynch, because I'm newb and haven't presented anyone else as a more attractive target. When I flip town, he can simply say "I'm not scum, why would scum push ham so hard? They already know what the flip will be, no scum would take that risk" and challenge any other speculation as WIFOM.

Most of this game has been rez and I talking past each other, so there's plenty of room for scum to slip through cracks. The original trio I mentioned, pie + suga + Jack, still has barely made a peep.

The only thing I can do is say "hey, lynch the lurkers". I correlate scum with lurking in the same way that rez correlates it with spam.

... basically, he is self-aware as usual, and trying to please raspy. How cute.
After the storm has passed, he goes back to his active lurking mode, until:

Unvote
Vote RedNihilist

That's L-1, I want to see a claim.

Which is pretty nice by itself.
After that, he comes up with another nice stunt:

Unvote

"Let's act townish!"

That's why I unvoted after his claim. The lack of the word "town" in my role PM confused me at first, and I doubted that scum would know that.

Pedit: saw that "town" wasn't included in the sample PM as rez said.[/quote:
22hk5jkx]

"Ohmygawd, let's waste a post and look MORE townish!"

Rez:

I'd like to hear what you have to say about Red after the chemicals wear off. He's a promising suspect, and the stuff going on after his claim has been very interesting to watch.

Vote RedNihilist

"Now I can jump back on the wagon."

I'm having trouble (lozl, as usual, since I'm shit at mafia) figuring out what to do. I don't really feel good about lynching Red. I weakly suspect that he is scum, but also keep going back to the thought that a mislynch today puts us down 2 players tomorrow. In a small game, that makes me nervous.

C_Ps experience of Red as playing differently as town in a previous game helped me hold my vote on him last night. Today, Red seems annoyed with us but resigned to his fate. I behaved similarly earlier when I thought I was dead, and when I was the day 1 lynch in Ragnarok.

Has he been lynched as scum in any other completed games?

"I'm a n00b, I'm not sure he's scum, I don't want a myslinch, but my vote stays there because the confirmed town C_P said so".

My vote is still on Red right now, and it was on LMD before that. I'm asking for some input from my team, not trying to waffle my way through day 1.

Self awareness, trying to hard, etc etc
The bolded part
is fUntastic.

------------------------

Now, mislynch me how many times you like, I hope that after my Town Mail Watcher flip you guys will be taking these posts more seriously.

Red:

Hypothetical time. If I was up for lynching, what would a town flip from me tell you about raspy? You've highlighted a very suspicious looking exchange, so I'm curious how you interpret it if I'm town.

Operating under the assumption that a mislynch gives us more information than a no-lynch, I'm willing to take the noose instead. There's been so much back-and-forth on my wagon that it should be useful for something come day 2.

Would my town flip tell you anything unexpected about other players here?

I see what you're trying to do with that case, Red, but you're highlighting some pretty normal day 1 behavior. My interactions with Ham were simply my way of trying to clear him out of my "likely scum" pile. He's played this way in games where he was town before, so I wasn't very confident about his wagon. I was prodding him to do more so I (and all of us) could move on to a more productive wagon.

Red:

Hypothetical time. If I was up for lynching, what would a town flip from me tell you about raspy? You've highlighted a very suspicious looking exchange, so I'm curious how you interpret it if I'm town.

Operating under the assumption that a mislynch gives us more information than a no-lynch, I'm willing to take the noose instead. There's been so much back-and-forth on my wagon that it should be useful for something come day 2.

Would my town flip tell you anything unexpected about other players here?

Given that you've put me on L-1 and you're vote is still on me, shouldn't it be about time for you to discuss my being scum rather than ask me what kind of informations I would dig from your corpse?
Because, I have to remind you,
scum doesn't need to lynch for info - if you're asking what kind of data I'm expecting to scavenge from you, you're labeling me as town, and that doesn't make much sense from somebody who was willing to lynch me for not being town.

I see what you're trying to do with that case, Red, but you're highlighting some pretty normal day 1 behavior. My interactions with Ham were simply my way of trying to clear him out of my "likely scum" pile. He's played this way in games where he was town before, so I wasn't very confident about his wagon. I was prodding him to do more so I (and all of us) could move on to a more productive wagon.

Fair enough, but these posts are NOT interaction with ham, and I'd like to hear something better from you about them:

so I count 4 votes on Ham? Is that correct? Mine was RVS
but I'll keep it until Ham posts something town-ish.

Wraith, why is Ham hard to read? What posts are troubling you?

Why are you so troubled about what people thinks of him?

I see what you're trying to do with that case, Red, but you're highlighting some pretty normal day 1 behavior. My interactions with Ham were simply my way of trying to clear him out of my "likely scum" pile. He's played this way in games where he was town before, so I wasn't very confident about his wagon. I was prodding him to do more so I (and all of us) could move on to a more productive wagon.

Fair enough, but these posts are NOT interaction with ham, and I'd like to hear something better from you about them:

so I count 4 votes on Ham? Is that correct? Mine was RVS but I'll keep it until Ham posts something town-ish.

Wraith, why is Ham hard to read? What posts are troubling you?

Why are you so troubled about what people thinks of him?

These posts seem pretty self-evident, Red. Why are you fishing so hard?

I wanted to foster more discussion. More discussion leads to better reads.

I like Red's case (even if I think he's tunneling a bit) and the way he's trying to hunt for scum there... I don't like how he dodged the question in 500(502).

red is trying to contribute despite being at a high wagon close to deadline and he has a confirmable role you guys

even if he's scum we get info from his role unless you think he's Scum Not-Watcher fakeclaiming Watcher

can we find someone else to lynch today

- Not liking rez's post 493 but I have to remember he's town soooooooooooo bleh
- Not liking Lord-M's 494 or general lurkiness after his pressure died down
- Not liking rcw in general.

vote rcw

red, hop on.

p.s. - kinda wary about joining the wagon w/ Suga on it (still can't decide if he's town/scum) but hey maybe he's town and on to something

Red:

Hypothetical time. If I was up for lynching, what would a town flip from me tell you about raspy? You've highlighted a very suspicious looking exchange, so I'm curious how you interpret it if I'm town.

Operating under the assumption that a mislynch gives us more information than a no-lynch, I'm willing to take the noose instead. There's been so much back-and-forth on my wagon that it should be useful for something come day 2.

Would my town flip tell you anything unexpected about other players here?

Given that you've put me on L-1 and you're vote is still on me,
shouldn't it be about time for you to discuss my being scum rather than ask me what kind of informations I would dig from your corpse?
Because, I have to remind you, scum doesn't need to lynch for info - if you're asking what kind of data I'm expecting to scavenge from you, you're labeling me as town, and that doesn't make much sense from somebody who was willing to lynch me for not being town.

If I believed strongly that you were scum, I wouldn't bother interacting with you at all. I thought you were scum when I brought you to L-1, then your claim made me doubt that. Then rez pointed out the sample PM, so I put my vote back on you. Given that we're under a deadline and no-lynch has been accepted generally as bad, I'm going with it.

If nobody else votes for you and we go into tomorrow without a lynch, I won't be upset about it.

I just want to win, I don't care how we get there. If you're town, help me out.

I like Red's case (even if I think he's tunneling a bit) and the way he's trying to hunt for scum there... I don't like how he dodged the question in 500(502).

red is trying to contribute despite being at a high wagon close to deadline and he has a confirmable role you guys

even if he's scum we get info from his role unless you think he's Scum Not-Watcher fakeclaiming Watcher

can we find someone else to lynch today

- Not liking rez's post 493 but I have to remember he's town soooooooooooo bleh
- Not liking Lord-M's 494 or general lurkiness after his pressure died down
- Not liking rcw in general.

vote rcw

red, hop on.

get on lmd, dammit.

LMD isn't getting lynched today, you should already know that by now.

I like Red's case (even if I think he's tunneling a bit) and the way he's trying to hunt for scum there... I don't like how he dodged the question in 500(502).

red is trying to contribute despite being at a high wagon close to deadline and he has a confirmable role you guys

even if he's scum we get info from his role unless you think he's Scum Not-Watcher fakeclaiming Watcher

can we find someone else to lynch today

- Not liking rez's post 493 but I have to remember he's town soooooooooooo bleh
- Not liking Lord-M's 494 or general lurkiness after his pressure died down
- Not liking rcw in general.

vote rcw

red, hop on.

I think you're right
about the fact that maybe I'm tunneling a bit, I think I'll reread things over tomorrow (it's midnight here), but things makes too much sense in my head right now.
Why are you more suspicious of rcw rather than ham, though?

For now, Vote rcwraspy.

Red:

Hypothetical time. If I was up for lynching, what would a town flip from me tell you about raspy? You've highlighted a very suspicious looking exchange, so I'm curious how you interpret it if I'm town.

Operating under the assumption that a mislynch gives us more information than a no-lynch, I'm willing to take the noose instead. There's been so much
back-and-forth on my wagon that it should be useful for something come day 2.

Would my town flip tell you anything unexpected about other players here?

Given that you've put me on L-1 and you're vote is still on me, shouldn't it be about time for you to discuss my being scum rather than ask me what kind of informations I would dig from your corpse?
Because, I have to remind you, scum doesn't need to lynch for info - if you're asking what kind of data I'm expecting to scavenge from you, you're labeling me as town, and that doesn't make much sense from somebody who was willing to lynch me for not being town.

If I believed strongly that you were scum, I wouldn't bother interacting with you at all. I thought you were scum when I brought you to L-1, then your claim made me doubt that. Then rez pointed out the sample PM, so I put my vote back on you. Given that we're under a deadline and no-lynch has been accepted generally as bad, I'm going with it.

If
nobody else votes for you and we go into tomorrow without a lynch, I won't be upset about it.

I just want to win, I don't care how we get there. If you're town, help me out.

You could try to win by actually voting your strongest scum read.
Care to give us a list of who you would identify as town and who is probably scum?

Hypothetical time: if you were to be lynched and turn out town, raspy would shift towards the town-part of the scum-o-meter, because I don't think scum would have any good reason to keep you alive from a mislynch, because I don't see a misleaded ham being decisive in a pinch in later days (I'm being honest here, this is not meant to sound offensive), nor I think that raspy could be acting like that to purposefully get any kind of town-cred.

I could see scum wanting to keep an easy mislynch alive for later days if offered a better target, but I don't really see why scum should have felt threatened by my mediocre-self when the main focus shifted towards me.
If I were them, and I knew you were town, I would have just hammered you back then rather than bother searching for another non-threatening victim.

@Pie: I'll rephrase that -> why do you feel like hammering raspy is more urgent than voting ham?

Sure thing, Red.

My list of townies includes C_P, Wraith (though one of these days he'll roll scum and next level us with crazy talk), raspy and rez.

My scum suspects are Suga, LMD and Jack, who have done a great job of lurking all the way through day 1.

The nulls/undecided are io2, you and Pie.

I agree with you that scum would have just quicklynched me early, instead of trying to keep me around as an easily-confused puppet.

I've wanted to lynch LMD this whole time, but nobody else is on board and I lack the skills to case him properly.

Forgot to include CM in my null pile, almost forgot that he was even in this game.

So, from what I gather, Ham, Pie and maybe raspy and red would be willing to vote LMD. Can we make this happen?

I'd vote for him again

So, from what I gather, Ham, Pie and maybe raspy and red would be willing to vote LMD. Can we make this happen?

I'll need to re-read LMD before I'm comfortable voting him. I can do that tomorrow.

@Pie: your vote is on me. Any questions for me?

Why are you more suspicious of rcw rather than ham, though?

ham's self-awareness and attitude towards his lynch/wagon seemed townie.

why do you feel like hammering raspy is more urgent than voting ham?

already have a solid townread on ham. not-so-much with rcw.

@Pie: your vote is on me. Any questions for me?

/quick-iso

Here you clarify your hamvote was RVS. Why did that matter?
Here you ask Wraith to clarify why ham is hard to read. Why?
Here you ask about rez's reads on LMD and imopen. Why did you inquire about them and not CaptainMurphy and Ham?
Here you ask imopen and LMD about their reads. Why did you call them out specifically?
Here you say defensiveness is scummy. Why is being defensive scummy? Do you think a defensive attitude cannot come from a town PR?

Wow, I was gonna say I didn't have any questions. Glad I did that.

Saw some other stuff in there too that's making me lean scum on ya, but I'll wait for your responses first.

pie: isn't self-awareness something that scum do?

I'm no expert on what scum do

not sure if you're being a dick so I'll pretend you're serious: not necessarily. in fact, I'm more aware of doing scummy things when I'm town (and usually point it out).