Dies to Removal

Alright, I will role with ham being put on the back burner for DK to deal with.

unvote

I can support a Rez wagon as his rational makes no sense from a town perspective. Going after the known players is stupid as we have other players that are lurking hard. Right now, I am suspicious of LMD and Rez. LMD is stronger null and weak possible scum, but he is lurking hard as usual. Rez on the other hand is screaming scum tells and bad votes/reads.

I don't mind a vote against me or a read that I am not town. My issue is that Rez let ham go on his claim when ham brought nothing to the table. If Rez is scum; he has nothing to loose in supporting an unknown player as opposed to a known player. His options are limited with a town voting block to get misdirection in tricking town to Lynch town. Thus breaking up the town voting block is his only option with imopen2 and stardust (putting him town pile
after re-read) looking to be non scum team with Kaze. That leaves LMD and Rez in the serious unknown pile.

Putting on the pressure!

Vote Rez

Town, null, and scum list please.

Well, Red, you could try to night kill me multiple times and see if I survive. You and your gang up to the challenge?

This is an awkward tone to take with someone you're not voting - especially when you're not voting period.

Kaze defending Red, except that Kaze goes on to tally up another strike against Red in the following post. I think he slipped up here.

I defended ham last game
for no reason other than buying a friend. It paid off. Red is good at calling the scum team from last game, thus creating an Alliance with red is super smart. Don't forget, Kaze tried to buddy with me as well.

Do scum have day abilities? Cause my ability I stole from red is a day ability.

Kaze was buddying Red while simultaneously tunneling the fuck out of him? No. If this defense was aimed at a townie, it had no scum intent. Aimed at Kaze's scum buddy though... yeah.

Scum can have day abilities, sure. It's effectively a roleblocker that's actually capable of roleblocking any role instead of just active roles. Seems a perfect scum role given the game we're in.

Well, Red, you could try to night kill me multiple times and see if I survive. You and your gang up to the challenge?

This is an awkward tone to take with someone you're not voting - especially when you're not voting period.

Kaze defending Red, except that Kaze goes on to tally up another strike against Red in the following post. I think he slipped up here.

I don't see this as defense
at all. I see this as pushing Ham to vote Red and make good on his words.

No, because what's ham's response going to be? It's rare to see someone say, "Meh, sure, vote Red." Much more likely is some backpeddaly story about not thinking he's scum etc which just muddies the waters of the Red wagon in a big way. ham suspecting Red to be scum wasn't at all obvious - Kaze assumed that much.

But anyway, you up for shooting Red if we lynch rez today?

I'm not entirely sold on that idea. He's acting in a familiar way to me and I read his disable of me to be very town.

Actually let me think about that for a moment. Let's say Red is scum. Why would he disable me if he's scum? To prevent me from being a cop, which is how everyone read my claim. But it would also mean he couldn't use his faction kill (again, assuming a balanced game with only two scum). In that case, he could frame me by saying "I disabled Dechs and a NK didn't happen!" Maybe I ruined that by bringing it to the forefront right away, but he never talked about it at all to push the theory with the rest of you.

Then again, if Red really did think I was scum, then he shouldn't have just let that theory go altogether. I dunno, I hate this WIFOM crap. Someday I want to play as self aligned so I can finally say "both glasses were poisoned."

One other angle: Kaze was really pushing
the Red wagon from the start. It seems like one hell of a dangerous gambit because he might have ended up getting his buddy hanged. Maybe that's why he made such a flimsy case, though, and why he questioned me so hard when I put Red at L-1. Like a last minute defense as well as trapping me into looking as bad as I did. He also stated that it was a trap for anyone who hammered; stopping any town members from pulling the actual trigger.

I'm warming up to the idea, I guess, but it just looks very circumstantial. I need to go back over my reasons why I believed so firmly that Red was town and make sure they hold up.

In such a high powered game I wouldn't be at all surprised if the mafia could use their role and kill at the same time. That varies so much game to game that it's hard to say how Pie might be running this one.

As far as Kaze pushing Red, if you're gonna bus, bus hard. Everyone thought Red was town because of that. If that held to endgame, Kaze wins.

Ugh. I still don't like it. In the end, though, that's more evidence than I have against LMD. I was only considering LMD by process of elimination.

Well, we can talk for a bit. Red can defend himself. LMD can convince us that he's town. rezombad can do whatever it is rezombad does. If you're town, I can't really see this going any other way. LMD was too into Kaze to be his buddy. Red was too not-into Kaze to not be his buddy.

Red, yesterday you didn't want to lynch Dechs so that he could get a cop result. Why did you then decide to roleblock him?

I didn't really believe he was a cop, he seemed to anxious to get info on roles and things.
I STILL don't believe his vig claim.
I wanted to test him, to see if he would have come up with something made up for his lack of results.
To be fully honest, I submitted my action quite early (when he pretty much begged me for info on my choice) because he smelled fishy, then I just went with it rather than complain with Pie and asking him to retarget my action; I also thought - by the way my PM was worded - that he already knew he was being blocked by the time he had that exchange with you about the possibility of being blocked etc, so I really thought he was gambling by then.

TOO* anxious, FFS.

But then you didn't want to lynch him with me. Why? And if you were that sure he was scum, why didn't you go after him when Day 2 started.

You know me well enough to know that I'm NEVER fully sold on a read (except Wraith in the last game, but at times I had second thoughts on that as well), and I actually wanted to test him out.
It's not like I considered Wraith and Kaze too high on my T/S list either, I don't see why I should have went all-in so early in the game.

Idk what's been said the last 2-3 pages but I've been trying to catch up when I can..work is a cluster fuck right now.

1. I told you so re:kaze
2. DK's lack of ability to prove his claim is convenient, and yet somewhat believable...he never really said he was a cop, and the way he worded his claim struck me as odd at the time (protected from a cop???), but now makes sense with his full claim.
3. I don't like that stardust is trying to get everyone's full claim. You guys shouldn't be providing this much information for no reason. I am not sure stardust is town

You know me well enough to know that I'm NEVER fully sold on a read (except Wraith in the last game, but at times I had second thoughts on that as well), and I actually wanted to test him out.
It's not like I considered Wraith and Kaze too high on my T/S list either, I don't see why I should have went all-in so early in the game.

But if you're going to block him anyway, why is lynching him going "all-in"? It's not like he could prove anything before Day 2. I feel like you chose to go all-in when you chose to block him.

3. I don't like that stardust is trying to get everyone's full claim. You guys shouldn't be providing this much information for no reason. I am not sure stardust is town

With the exception of rezombad, everyone had already claimed when I asked them for the full claim. I just wanted it nice and neat so I could read it through since the beginning of Day 2 was such a flurry.

Looking forward to your catch-up.

I will try to do it tonight, but I might be super high and consequently somewhat paranoid. We shall see...

stardust: you are discarding LMD too quickly. i do not think there is nearly enough reason to call him town as you are making it seem.

all: don't trust stardust so much...he's asking for claims, directing PRs, and forgetting to follow through on rereads he promises (i remember him doing this in a previous scum game, but i can't remember which..). That plan may sound good but if stardust were scum, we'd be fucked.

anyone else think DK might be a self-aligned player who wins if he is lynched?

we should not spend any more time or effort trying to figure out how this game is balanced. we chose our roles and powers, there is not going to be a perfect balance. i would not be surprised if this game was 3 neutrals, 2 scum, 4 town. let's drop it, shall we?

What do you think of my case on Red, imopen?

You know me well enough to know that I'm NEVER fully sold on a read (except Wraith in the last game, but at times I had second thoughts on that as well), and I actually wanted to test him out.
It's not like I considered Wraith and Kaze too high on my T/S list either, I don't see why I should have went all-in so early in the game.

But if you're going to block him anyway, why is lynching him going "all-in"? It's not like he could prove anything before Day 2. I feel like you chose to go all-in when you chose to block him.

Seriously, I've chosen to block him because I wanted to cause some reaction from, how is that more risky than just lynching him and hoping to be right?

anyone else think DK might be a self-aligned player who wins if he is lynched?

I think it would make sense if he could win by being lynched first, does such a role (you win if you get lynched at any point of the game) really exist?
How would it be balanced with Survivors?

all: don't trust stardust so much...he's asking for claims, directing PRs, and forgetting to follow through on rereads he promises (i remember him doing this in a previous scum game, but i can't remember which..). That plan may sound good but if stardust were scum, we'd be fucked.

I really don't know.
I mean, on Day 1 I just felt like he was barning me hard, today after I said that such behaviour was troubling me he started casing me and publicly plotting my execution and swinging from "we're a good town block!" to "hey DK-that-everyone-considered-scum-till-a-minute-ago, be a good boy and shoot him" is somehow funny, but whatever.

On the same time, I feel like that the way he worked towards a scumKazekill on Day 1
clears him from being scum, I really don't see the point of bussing one's buddy THAT hard on Day 1.

I remember playing with him on Kaze n00b Mafia before, maybe that's the game you're referring to.

stardust: you are discarding LMD too quickly. i do not think there is nearly enough reason to call him town as you are making it seem.

all: don't trust stardust so much...he's asking for claims, directing PRs, and forgetting to follow through on rereads he promises (i remember him doing this in a previous scum game, but i can't remember which..). That plan may sound good but if stardust were scum, we'd be fucked.

anyone else think DK might be a self-aligned player who wins if he is lynched?

we should not spend any more time or effort trying to figure out how this game is balanced. we chose our roles and powers, there is not going to be a perfect balance. i would not be surprised if this game was 3 neutrals, 2 scum, 4 town. let's drop it, shall we?

- What reason do you think I'm scum, short of me lurking and not giving you the reads you want (whatever those may be) what legit reason do you have to think I'm scum?

- So, are we to point fingers at each other and various direction and try and all individually try and win the game, that doesn't work, the less the town is motivated towards working together, the easier it is for scum to win, stardust is pushing town towards just that

-..you have my interest if you can demonstrate why you think this

- agreed

LMD, what bothers me most about you is that you didn't hammer Kaze when you had the chance.

Also the idea that I win when I get lynched is ridiculous. No, I've got the same town win condition as the rest of you. I just understand that I don't need to be alive to win and if lynching me meant that you'd finally believe me and solve the game, then I was ok with that.

Such a role does exist; it's called a Jester. I doubt there's a Jester in this game, and if it's Dechs, he's not doing a very good job of it right now.

Seriously, I've chosen to block him because I wanted to cause some reaction from, how is that more risky than just lynching him and hoping to be right?

I'm not saying it's more risky, just that you let him live for a reason that you then blocked. Among other things, I don't like it.

Also, why would scumStardust start going after you when you say you used to suspect me a little? You thought I was town, I had Dechs pushing me to get both rez and LMD killed (followed by Dechs, presumably), and I changed that direction because I have no reason to suspect LMD. I do have reason to suspect you. Or did you think my case was bullshit? You could tear it down if you want to.

Seriously, I've chosen to block him because I wanted to cause some reaction from, how is that more risky than just lynching him and hoping to be right?

I'm not saying it's more risky, just that you let him live for a reason that you then blocked. Among other things, I don't like it.

You might have missed it, but Red said that he submitted his action to block me before he said the bit about giving me a chance to prove my role. So he knew I was going to be blocked when he said "give Dechs a chance." I'm not sure how to take that.

I mean, if he's town, he never trusted me to begin with and it was a legit trap.

If he's scum, then it was a good set up for a mislynch. He didn't push it hard enough for me to believe this.

I'm having serious trouble understanding what you want from me now.
I didn't "let him live for a reason THEN blocked him" because:
1) I submitted my action BEFORE his becoming a popular wagon;
2) having him enter Day 2 after being blocked could have lead to him trying to lie his way out things;
2b (alternative)) having him enter Day 2 claiming to have been blocked would have started some good actions by people willing to lynch him, and that'd actually provided something to work on REGARDLESS of the fact that we ended up lynching him or not.

Ok, I see it now. He had already blocked me. He didn't want to lynch me because that would mean his power had been "wasted." He wanted to get something out of it, and gave me the chance to lie my ass off.

That's town motivated to me.

"Why would scumStardust etc etc" is a bad question and you know that: I didn't call you scum and I actually said that your mood swings towards me feel creepy, yet I feel uneasy at calling you scum - why are you trying to clear yourself so aggressively?

I don't think your case on me was "bullshit", yet I'm not going to spend my life arguing with you on some point-by-point argument when I don't really need to - if you feel like cohercing Dechs into shooting me feel free to do so, I'll just flip Town Changeling and you'll feel stupid but that's how the game pans out, isn't it?

Yes, I suppose so.

You could have changed your chosen target yesterday. And I'm not trying to aggressively clear myself, just felt like your last post re: me was pretty waffly. Your use of the phrase, "On the same time" leads me to believe that the entire first paragraph is why you think I might be scum. It doesn't make sense and seemed like you were avoiding taking a stance.

Okay, so, you say you're town. What do you want to do today?

Why the preference to Red over LMD? I thought you were pretty convinced Red was town.

Careful DK, we don't know if stardust is town. He likes to court players and bend them to his will. I am still questioning whether the mod answered his request cause he took forever to respond to me. My message was first, thus how did stardust get his request in so fast. Could be nothing, but it is possible stardust is trying to lead
players into tunneling.

Yeah, we can be sure that Stardust is town. He asked for the extension and was the second vote on Kaze's wagon. It's not a bus, because the optimal scum play would have been to just Day end. We didn't have any wagons going that could have ended in a lynch fast enough. If Stardust was scum and if he asked for the extension to fool us, he would have still been better to push the wagon of anyone else, namely me. There were enough people willing to lynch me for sure. Especially with Kaze's strong ability, there is absolutely no way he was bussed by Stardust.

It's not hard for scum to do town things, him asking for an extension gets him easy town cred, especially if he already knows he's on to scum.
'second vote on kaze's wagon' doesn't mean anything.
TELL ME ABOUT OPTIMAL FUCKING SCUM PLAYS


EVERYTHING IN THIS POST IS WIFOM
GOD DAMMIT

NO ONE WANTS TO LYNCH NEUTRALS, EVEN THOUGH THEYRE NOT TOWN AND THEYRE POTENTIALLY PREVENTING US
FROM WINNING

GOD DAMMIT

ILL LYNCH DECKS, STARDUST, HAM OR WRAITH

@mod: votecount please

Alright, I will role with ham being put on the back burner for DK to deal with.

unvote

I can support a Rez wagon as his rational makes no sense from a town perspective. Going after the known players is stupid as we have other players that are lurking hard. Right now, I am suspicious of LMD and Rez. LMD is stronger null and weak possible scum, but he is lurking hard as usual. Rez on the other hand is screaming scum tells and bad votes/reads.

I don't mind a vote against me or a read that I am not town. My issue is that Rez let ham go on his claim when ham brought nothing to the table. If Rez is scum; he has nothing to loose in supporting an unknown player as opposed to a known player. His
options are limited with a town voting block to get misdirection in tricking town to Lynch town. Thus breaking up the town voting block is his only option with imopen2 and stardust (putting him town pile after re-read) looking to be non scum team with Kaze. That leaves LMD and Rez in the serious unknown pile.

Putting on the pressure!

Vote Rez

Town, null, and scum list please.

Then we have wraith over here, giving me shit for giving him shit for being neutral is fucking ridiculous, and he's not part of a town voting bloc because he's not fucking town.

Red, yesterday you didn't want to lynch Dechs so that he could get a cop result. Why did you then decide to roleblock him?

I really like this post

I'm having serious trouble understanding what you want from me now.
I didn't "let him live for a reason THEN blocked him" because:
1) I submitted my action BEFORE his becoming a popular wagon;
2) having him enter Day 2 after being blocked could have lead to him trying to lie his way out things;
2b (alternative)) having him enter Day 2 claiming to have been blocked would have started some good actions by people willing to lynch him, and that'd actually provided something to work on REGARDLESS of the fact that we ended up lynching him or not.

There's an easy way to check this

HEY WRAITH
can you message pie and try to cancel your disable or change the target?

I have no idea how to read that post.

rezmo, let's say there's 1 scum left and let's also say that both ham and Wraith are telling the truth. We're at 5:2:1 right now. We lynch a neutral and mafia nightkills a townie. We're at 4:1:1 Day 3. We lynch a neutral and mafia nightkills a townie. We're at 3:0:1 Day 4 (mylo). Why do we want to lynch neutrals again? We lynch serial killers, not neutrals in general.

Why do you want to lynch me? Why do you want to lynch Wraith, yet simultaneously trust him to give you information on Red's alignment?

vote Rez

There is no k in my name.

Well, not in my first name.

I have no idea how to read that post.

I do. It says "I'm scum and you should hang me."

rezmo, let's say there's 1 scum left and let's also say that both ham and Wraith are telling the truth. We're at 5:2:1 right now. We lynch a neutral and mafia nightkills a townie. We're at 4:1:1 Day 3. We lynch a neutral and mafia nightkills a townie. We're at 3:0:1 Day 4 (mylo). Why do we want to lynch neutrals again? We lynch serial killers, not neutrals in general.

See, I believe Rez is a smart enough town player to know that lynching neutrals right
now is a bad idea. You shouldn't have needed to explain the math behind it. He's purposefully pushing bad theory to buy time.

I also notice his tremendous attitude shift once he started getting attention from the town block.

Why the preference to Red over LMD? I thought you were pretty convinced Red was town.

Careful DK, we don't know if stardust is town. He likes to court players and bend them to his will. I am still questioning whether the mod answered his request cause he took
forever to respond to me. My message was first, thus how did stardust get his request in so fast. Could be nothing, but it is possible stardust is trying to lead players into tunneling.

Yeah, we can be sure that Stardust is town. He asked for the extension and was the second vote on Kaze's wagon. It's not a bus, because the optimal scum play would have been to just Day end. We didn't have any wagons going that could have ended in a lynch fast enough. If Stardust was scum and if he asked for the extension to fool us, he would have still been better to push the wagon of anyone else, namely me. There were enough people willing to lynch me for sure. Especially with Kaze's strong ability, there is absolutely no way he was bussed by Stardust.

It's not hard for scum to do town things, him asking for an extension gets him easy town cred, especially if he already knows he's on to scum.
'second vote on kaze's wagon' doesn't mean anything.
TELL ME ABOUT OPTIMAL FUCKING
SCUM PLAYS


EVERYTHING IN THIS POST IS WIFOM
GOD DAMMIT

It's not WIFOM at all. It's solid analysis. Stardust, if he was in scum, had the opportunity to gain his town cred with asking for the extension. That would have been enough. Then, I still had a vote and was scum of the day to most people. He could have put the second vote on me and got that wagon moving while getting rid of a claimed "cop" (at the time) but still cemented his town position. Stardust knows what he's doing; the optimal play there is to gain the town cred without hanging his bus driver.

Yes, I'm aware that Stardust in this thread even said that if you're going to bus, bus hard. If he is scum, then he's even cheekier than I was in the last game (well, maybe). I don't believe it. He's smarter than that and he's not nearly so brazen.

SO STOP YELLING
GOD DAMN IT
AND SPELL MY NAME RIGHT
GOD DAMN IT
FUCK

Seriously, that shit isn't helping at all.

Yeah. Definitely hasn't changed my opinion that rez should be the lynch today. Red's responses were okayish, but I think I'd still like you to shoot him instead of LMD (if rez flips town - seems a bit more likely now that you'll be shooting ham tonight instead). I want to nail this down 100% before ending the Day because I still don't trust you enough to make that choice yourself.

Everyone, what do you think of the plan to lynch rezombad today and have Dechs shoot Red tonight? Would you rather he shoot LMD? Why? Would you rather do something else entirely? What?