@NotARobot: I don't exactly recall, but I believe I took out 4 Shock and 4 Skullcrack (and some other stuff of course).
@Khaospawn: I never boarded in 12 cards before Shouta's list because I didn't want to tamper with my ability to burn out my opponent quickly too much.
The maindeck might only be three cards different, but not having Searing Blood says a lot about what you're trying to do.
Reckonver vs. Mortars is a significant difference. The prophetic flamespeakers, merely by being 3 more permanent bodies, grant you the ability to shift from relying almost entirely on limited damage to end the game to being able to slam a card off the top and ride away with it.
So playing an extra Chains, a Shock, and
Mortars says more than not playing Searing Blood? With the exception of Shock, all these cards are used to kill creatures. That's like saying putting garlic in an omelet instead of pepper is making a huge statement.
As for Reckoner, I like that he can be swapped directly for Phoenix when playing against little aggro. Mortars has nice synergy with Young Pyromancer though, allowing you to make some tokens, which is also good versus creature decks. I fail to see the significant difference and/or advantage.
Flamespeaker seems pretty cool. Not always reliable, but cool. I like that Chandra does the same thing pretty much without having to rely on connecting.
Brainsick, I like you, buddy. And I'm glad that you've found something that you like to play with and enables you to win. But the list he made isn't perfection that's set in stone. It can be better. Most of these cards in the deck perform the same role and function as other cards available to us. At the end of the day, choosing to argue over
things like Reckoner vs Mortars is like saying Vanilla is better than Chocolate. It's all delicious ice cream, know what I'm sayin'?
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:10 pm
by dauntless268
I love your posts, Khaos
I have exactly the same hard time as you have figuring out the intricacies of Shoota's sideboard, and what point is there in playing a sideboard that you don't fully undertand?
I do see a few points though, like the potential removal overkill that having access to CTTR, BL, Reprisal, MM and Fated brings. I personally do have 3 Reckoner in my board atm because Reckoner stops Red Aggro Decks like no other dude out there. I also like him vs. the Mirror, because I feel the creatureless plan gets somewhat weaker without having Access to Searing Blood. But I'm not sideboarding Reckoner in vs. Jund.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:46 pm
by Khaospawn
I actually like Shouta's list a lot, but I also like the 3/3/3 list that Zem pioneered (and "we" have helped fine tune) just the same. I firmly believe that no list is better than the other right now, just that some are better positioned at different times. There seems to be some misconception that just because Shouta Yasooka made a deck it has become automatically superior.
There are many ways to play Burn. The 2 drop slot says it all: Ash Zealot for pure aggression, YP$ for a tempo and control oriented approach, Eidolon for the devil-may-care and risk taker attitude within us all (also does a nice switch with Firedancer for Game 2/3), or no 2-drop at all for an all-spells approach.
All versions suffer from the weaknesses: our opponent's big creatures (or many little creatures), life gain, and Sphinx's Revelation. All decks exist in the same metagame defined by these 5 decks: B/x, U/W/x, Monsters
variants, Mono U Devotion, and R/x Aggro (Burn and Sligh). We all have the same tools. Some tools are just better at certain times depending how the metagame fluctuates. While Sligh is popular due to Mono U being played less, Boros Reckoner is better positioned. When smart players decide to play Mono U to beat the Sligh decks, Mizzium Mortars will become better than Reckoner for that little window before the meta shifts again.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:58 pm
by Elricity
Khaos, that's basically it.
I personally like the Shota list because it fits my playstyle of slowly picking my opponent apart. I find the 3/3/3 list has a weaker matchup against control, for example, at least with my playstyle.
I don't know who Shota is (is that his first or last name?) and don't really care to find out. I thought it was really strange until I watched him play the control round and figured out what he was up to. Then I tested it and was happy about it.
That's all.
You mentioned making changes to it. Z already made two which I happen to agree with and I'm still trying out keening over wear. What do you suggest? I could see a solid argument for dropping a reckoner for 3rd mortars.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:02 pm
by zenbitz
When smart players decide to play Mono U to beat the Sligh decks
I know this is not exactly the thread for this... but I have been testing this exactly match up a bit... it's hardly a slam dunk for mono-U game 1. You can board in Jace AOT but you still gotta get to turn 4. There are a lot of hands (without 2 drops) where you are just dead. And sligh barely cares about tidebinder mage. My estimate is that this MU is pretty close to 50-50.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:26 pm
by Khaospawn
Khaos, that's basically it.
I personally like the Shota list because it fits my playstyle of slowly picking my opponent apart. I find the 3/3/3 list has a weaker matchup against control, for example, at least with my playstyle.
I don't know who Shota is (is that his first or last name?) and don't really care to find out. I thought it was really strange until I watched him play the control round and figured out what he was up to. Then I tested it and was happy about it.
That's all.
You mentioned making changes to it. Z already made two which I happen to agree with and I'm still trying out keening over wear. What do you suggest? I could see a solid argument for dropping a reckoner for 3rd mortars.
My introduction to Shouta Yasooka
was during Modern Pro Tour coverage when he unveiled Eternal Command to the world. The man definitely has some credentials...
As for what I'd play, I usually never know what I'm going to play in Standard (Modern and Legacy is a different story) until I actually do. I'm dead serious. I mean, I know what deck I'm going to play, but as far as the sideboard and flex slots go, it all gets jammed together in the hour or two before I get to wherever it is I'm playing. I'm a paper player with about 4 different places to go for an event (whether it's a PTQ, FNM, Game Day, whatevs). For some places I'll know what the meta is like and for some places I'll have no clue. I know what cards i want for certain things and I've grown confidant (and comfortable) in my choices. I know what I want. I may not always choose correctly, but I still stand by my choices.
For example, a month ago for a big Game Day, I knew that I was going into a Monsters infested area
and I actually brought the old version of Boros Burn because I knew that version best. And it worked. Mostly. I lost in the finals in Game 3 vs Mono Green Stompy to a dumb decision on my end. But what got me to the finals was playing Spark Trooper and Blind Obedience. Shit worked, what can I say?
But if I had to go somewhere right now and play (or to FNM tomorrow), I'd take the 3/3/3 list featuring Young Pyromancer. As for sideboard, I'm debating on whether I'd want Reckoner in the board over Mortars...or even both. I'd play 2 Chandra and 2 Banishing Light for sure, plus the 4th Chained. The rest would come to me. Probably Eidolon. I know what works for me and what doesn't. I don't know if this even helps anybody, but you asked.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:39 pm
by Khaospawn
When smart players decide to play Mono U to beat the Sligh decks
I know this is not exactly the thread for this... but I have been testing this exactly match up a bit... it's hardly a slam dunk for mono-U game 1. You can board in Jace AOT but you still gotta get to turn 4. There are a lot of hands (without 2 drops) where you are just dead. And sligh barely cares about tidebinder mage. My estimate is that this MU is pretty close to 50-50.
True, but the surge in popularity of Mono U will really scare a lot of people off of Sligh. Unfortunately, there are a lot of fair weather Red Mages on this planet. For every Patrick Sullivan, Nicholas Heal, and Tom Ross, there are about 10 people who pick up a Red Deck
because it's the new hotness (pun intended) and then drop it just as fast when something else comes around.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:50 pm
by Elricity
Khaos, that's basically it.
I personally like the Shota list because it fits my playstyle of slowly picking my opponent apart. I find the 3/3/3 list has a weaker matchup against control, for example, at least with my playstyle.
I don't know who Shota is (is that his first or last name?) and don't really care to find out. I thought it was really strange until I watched him play the control round and figured out what he was up to. Then I tested it and was happy about it.
That's all.
You mentioned making changes to it. Z already made two which I happen to agree with and I'm still trying out
keening over wear. What do you suggest? I could see a solid argument for dropping a reckoner for 3rd mortars.
But if I had to go somewhere right now and play (or to FNM tomorrow), I'd take the 3/3/3 list featuring Young Pyromancer. As for sideboard, I'm debating on whether I'd want Reckoner in the board over Mortars...or even both. I'd play 2 Chandra and 2 Banishing Light for sure, plus the 4th Chained. The rest would come to me. Probably Eidolon. I know what works for me and what doesn't. I don't know if this even helps anybody, but you asked.
Thanks. I tend not to know my individual metas that well so I tend not to shift as much.
I tend to disagree that the cards function similarly but again, maybe that's playstyle. For example, I find shock and searing blood fundamentally different and even flamespeaker vs Chandra. There's a reason why I would play Flamespeaker against blue or red devotion and Chandra vs burn but never the reverse.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:09 pm
by Khaospawn
Khaos, that's basically it.
I personally like the Shota list because it fits my playstyle of slowly picking my opponent apart. I find the 3/3/3 list has a weaker matchup against control, for example, at least with my playstyle.
I don't know who Shota is (is that his first or last name?) and don't really care to find out. I thought it was really strange until I watched him play the control round and figured out what he was up to. Then I
tested it and was happy about it.
That's all.
You mentioned making changes to it. Z already made two which I happen to agree with and I'm still trying out keening over wear. What do you suggest? I could see a solid argument for dropping a reckoner for 3rd mortars.
But if I had to go somewhere right now and play (or to FNM tomorrow), I'd take the 3/3/3 list featuring Young Pyromancer. As for sideboard, I'm debating on whether I'd want Reckoner in the board over Mortars...or even both. I'd play 2 Chandra and 2 Banishing Light for sure, plus the 4th Chained. The rest would come to me. Probably Eidolon. I know what works for me and what doesn't. I don't know if this even helps anybody, but you asked.
Thanks. I tend not to know my individual metas that well so I tend not to shift as much.
I tend to disagree that the cards function similarly but again, maybe that's playstyle. For example, I find shock and searing blood fundamentally different and even
flamespeaker vs Chandra. There's a reason why I would play Flamespeaker against blue or red devotion and Chandra vs burn but never the reverse.
Standard is weird right now in that there are a plethora of removal options and answers, but they're very specific. There aren't many catch-all cards and there certainly aren't versatile cards like Path To Exile as universal removal spells. For example, nowadays Chained to the Rocks exists but it requires Mountains and it's an enchantment in an environment where enchantment removal is readily available to a lot of colors.
Reprisal is good for Obzedat and Polukranos, but not for Stormbreath Dragon. Mizzium Mortars is good for Stormbreath Dragon, but not for Fiendslayer Paladin. Chained is good for Fiendslayer Paladin and Master of Waves, but it's not great against Elspeth tokens. Banishing Light is great for Elspeth and Whip of Erebos, but a little slow against Sligh decks. Searing Blood and Reckoner are good
against little aggro, but not really great against Courser of Kruphix decks.
See what I mean? You got to have the right tools for the job.
I tend to lump things together at times. Little creature hate consists of YP$, Shock, Searing Blood, Reckoner, Chandra, and Mortars. Hate for B/x and Monsters decks include Banishing Light and Chains. You want Banishing Light and Chandra against Control.
The thing is, you want as much overlap in your collection of 'answers' as possible. Some tools perform multiple roles, some perform a single role (like Wear//Tear), and some allow you to change your entire strategy, such as transforming from a Burn deck into an aggressive creature deck utilizing Flamespeakers. It just depends on how much of these types of cards you think you'll need. Not expecting a lot of little Aggro? Don't play Seating Blood; those Shocks should be enough. Expecting a lot durdly type decks? Hell, play a transformational board with Firedrinker Satyrs, Spark Troopers, and Viashino
Firstblades.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:12 pm
by dpaine88
Man MTGO is awesome. Good quality practice whenever the hell I want. Gonna help big time in prepping for SCG Worcester.
Did 5 2-mans so far. Went 4-1 overall(losing game 3 on mull to 5 to triple Merchant =(
Beat 2 Mono Black, lost to 1 Mono Black.
Beat 2 Mono Blue decks.
Would anyone be willing to look at some of my matches if I was to record it?
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:29 pm
by Elricity
Would anyone be willing to look at some of my matches if I was to record it?
We could always use more!
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:40 pm
by rage_jl
@dpaine88 I would watch them. I enjoy the videos I learn a ton watching others pilot the same deck. When and what decisions are made and if they work out or not helps immensely. Most of us are only able to play so much so any additional schooling is welcome.
@Khaospawn The decision of how to fill those 3/3/3 slots and the exact compliment of the SB are hardest thing to figure out pre-event for me. I usually end up choosing what is most comfortable but it usually ends up not mattering too much after the fact. The core of the deck tends to perform well if you're nice to it in my experience.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:50 pm
by Khaospawn
@Khaospawn The decision of how to fill those 3/3/3 slots and the exact compliment of the SB are hardest thing to figure out pre-event for me. I usually end up choosing what is most comfortable but it usually ends up not mattering too much after the fact. The core of the deck tends to perform well if you're nice to it in my experience.
It's always a good idea to go with what you know.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:20 pm
by Whole
Stoke the Flames
So this was just spoiled. What do you guys think of this card over or in conjunction with Warleader's Helix? It can be free or cost about 2 mana with Young Pyromancer and hit Blood Baron/Stormbreath. But of course, it does not gain us life.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:23 pm
by Khaospawn
Stoke the Flames
So this was just spoiled. What do you guys think of this card over or in conjunction with Warleader's Helix? It can be free or cost about 2 mana with Young Pyromancer and hit Blood Baron/Stormbreath. But of course, it does not gain us life.
I think that as long as Warleader's Helix is an option, this card won't be considered until rotation. But that's like, my opinion, man....
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:28 pm
by BrainsickHater
I think it depends on the prevalence of decks that play Stormbreath Dragon. But it's likely going to be what Khaos said.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:42 pm
by Rhyno
Whoa, I think it's good.
I expect to be casting it for 2 or less against monsters variants and other removal light decks. I've found the board gummed up quite a bit. Tapping some Elementals to deal 4 and then alpha striking seems great.
This thing combines all the benefits of Helix and Mortars.
+ Non white for BB and Stormbreath
+ Instant speed
+ Can go to the dome
Worst case scenarios are you're casting a Helix without the lifegain or you're tapping 2 extra mana for instant speed mortars. I think the pros way outweigh the cons here. I do have a habit of getting excited for new cards though.
It's certainly worse at killing their T3 Courser and early weenies but hey.
I'll be testing 3 Helix/2 Stoke in the main first.
If they pass turn and you've got 4 lands and a Pyro, you can cast a 2 CMC spell, then cast Stoke for 2 and uptap with 4 power. Neat.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:22 pm
by rage_jl
YP is in the rotating core set and isn't spoiled to be reprinted as far as I know (I only look at mtgsalvation so I could be wrong).
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:26 pm
by Rhyno
YP is in the rotating core set and isn't spoiled to be reprinted as far as I know (I only look at mtgsalvation so I could be wrong).
M14 (and Ravnica) does not rotate until Khans releases. M14 and M15 will be in Standard together until then.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:33 pm
by rage_jl
Nice I didn't know that. I was on a really long sabbatical from the game (6 years-ish) and didn't know you could play both core sets together. I stand corrected.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:55 am
by BrainsickHater
Saw this decklist:
Dega Burn by planert41: 11-4 @ GP Chicago
[deck]
Land (22)
4x Blood Crypt
2x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
3x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
3x Temple of Malice
4x Temple of Triumph
There are LOTS of things I don't like about this deck, but I really like the Deathrite Shaman. Seems like Shaman provides so much extra damage we can just throw everything at the face and get there.
nEDIT: The more I look at this, the more I realize it's impossible to get deathrite to work with a Standard-format manabase
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:40 am
by magicdownunder
@Dega Burn: I sometimes struggle too hit 5 lands in a 25 land list with Scry, let alone 4 lands with 23 - so I'll imagine this is a paper only list since a competent shuffle will make you lose many games due to land variance.
@dpaine88: I'm glad your enjoying MTGO (and the fact that your doing well) soon I'll have even more buddies playing in MOCS events with me - Also I'll watch your videos if you post them.
Manabase
Why arn't I running Mana Confluence? This version of burn is almost a control deck with the number of removal I'm running in my 75 so I need a REALLY good reason to take all that pain
Why I'm I running 1 Temple of Silence and 1 Temple of Malice? 6 Scry lands = more choices which gives you more chances too either win or lose.
MD Removal Suit
Jund is
the current topdog online follow by Bx Devo and Ux Devo so not running 4x Chains and 1x MM would be silly.
SB
2 Banishing Light is a my answer against Ux Devotion (I know lots of you here believe the MU is a bye, but its one of the few MU which can just kill you if you don't have CttR or BL on the spot)
1 Reprisal and 1 Fated Conflagration are for all the Ghost and Monster decks (I wanted too go 2x Reprisal but I felt that I needed that 5th MM for SBD and BBV)
3 Mizzium Mortars a must have if your not on the Dancer package
4 Toil // Trouble, 2 Chandra, Pyromaster, 1 Mutavault are my preferred anti-control package
- - - - - - - - - -
I count the 1 Keening Apparition as my flex spot, still thinking about it.
Dega Burn by planert41: 11-4 @ GP Chicago
[deck]
Land (22)
4x Blood Crypt
2x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
3x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
3x Temple of Malice
4x Temple of Triumph
There are LOTS of things I don't like
about this deck, but I really like the Deathrite Shaman. Seems like Shaman provides so much extra damage we can just throw everything at the face and get there.
EDIT: The more I look at this, the more I realize it's impossible to get deathrite to work with a Standard-format manabase
Holy crap, 22 lands, 3 colors, and 5 drops. I'm so tempted to dismiss the guy as just running hot because at a glance the deck looks like a mess.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:35 pm
by BrainsickHater
The deck is definitely a pile, no doubt about that. I was entertaining the possibility that DRS was good enough to support a pile.
But I doubt it, the manabase is so awful becasue of him and I don't think it gets much better.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:04 pm
by Khaospawn
I wonder how that deck just didn't get eaten alive by Mono U and Sligh?
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:15 pm
by BrainsickHater
According to his reddit post, apparently Rakdos Charm.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:16 pm
by BrainsickHater
And I suppose the creatures don't hurt
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:27 pm
by Khaospawn
He surely must've been running hot in order to get 1 of 2 Charms to win Game 2 and/or Game 3 against those decks.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:05 pm
by Rhyno
He surely must've been running hot in order to get 1 of 2 Charms to win Game 2 and/or Game 3 against those decks.
Well he's going to side in Deicide to take care of that pesky Thassa which is apparently a big problem for Burn.
People in the /r/spikes thread are upset that zem didn't give his blessing to the deck like some sort of RW Burn Pope.
I've tried DRS before but back then I was running a very aggressive shell. The mana was atrocious. I'm hesitant to but I might give it another shot without all the junk
and just DRS.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:19 pm
by magicdownunder
Ya know how you guys are all loving Prophetic Flamespeaker vs Ux Devo and control right?
Why not just run Mindsparker in its place? The card is still decent if Jace or a Sheep get in the way since it can turn into a 1-sided Revel (yes, Ux devotion as well since they have been know too run a heavy counter and/or jace plan postboard).
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:34 pm
by BrainsickHater
I think I would run Mindsparker if I was playing a 3/3/3 list instead of a Shota list. I actually really like that card now that I look at it. However, in a Shouta list I think that Flamespeaker just does more of what you want to do. In such a list, I want a creature that can come down late and threaten to carry the game away, not a creature which adds on early pressure.
If I go back to a 3/3/3 I might try out the mindsparker though, I like the card a lot. I guess the big question is, "Is it worth paying 3 mana for?"
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:11 pm
by Khaospawn
Ya know how you guys are all loving Prophetic Flamespeaker vs Ux Devo and control right?
Why not just run Mindsparker in its place? The card is still decent if Jace or a Sheep get in the way since it can turn into a 1-sided Revel (yes, Ux devotion as well since they have been know too run a heavy counter and/or jace plan postboard).
MDU, you scallywag! That's an awesome suggestion.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:21 pm
by dpaine88
What are you guys using to record your matches?
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:26 pm
by NotARobot
IDK. Flamespeaker totally saved my ass last night in matchups against MUD and MBA. Once you start drawing cards with it you pretty much cant lose - mindsparker is nice, but it doesnt draw cards, which I feel like is the key thing about flamespeaker.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:07 pm
by BrainsickHater
IDK. Flamespeaker totally saved my ass last night in matchups against MUD and MBA. Once you start drawing cards with it you pretty much cant lose - mindsparker is nice, but it doesnt draw cards, which I feel like is the key thing about flamespeaker.
I concur.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:08 pm
by zenbitz
I was just thinking how poor mindsparker was the only one of the M14 Hate Rares to not make it into Standard decks.
Eidolon into Mindsparker into Burning Earth? LOL
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:11 pm
by dpaine88
Ok guys here it is.I recorded a match for you all.
I tried to commentate a little bit but sometimes I got caught up in the game.
Here it is! Please enjoy and leave any feedback-good or bad.
Yes, I know the yellow mouse tracker is annoying but it is off now!
Using MDU's exact list -- thanks buddy =)
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:08 pm
by Elricity
Ya know how you guys are all loving Prophetic Flamespeaker vs Ux Devo and control right?
Why not just run Mindsparker in its place? The card is still decent if Jace or a Sheep get in the way since it can turn into a 1-sided Revel (yes, Ux devotion as well since they have been know too run a heavy counter and/or jace plan postboard).
One ends the game if unanswered in two turns. The other does not. Also, one is more powerful against several more matchups.
- Also I'll watch your videos if you post them.
