Dies to Removal

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:58 am**

I'm also a massive fan of the 6 scry land version, I've just lost one too many games (really really small percentage) because I didn't hit my white land which is why I upped the count into 12

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:38 pm**

I read Adrian Sullivan article and to be fair it seems like garbage to me. i respect him , but probably he never played nor tested this deck because it blaters about how cards like chained to the rocks are strange in burn and how he would just like to point everything to the face and win. Unfortunately, this is not modern or legacy burn and we need effective ways to deal with big creatures. We often act like a tempo deck if not like a control deck, while he seems to think that we should just race everything then maybe throw in perilous vault to deal with problematic permanents.
Plus, Aggressive mining is very bad in a deck where you need at leas 4 land to work properly.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:55 pm**

I assume he was asked to help sell copies of perilous vault or something. The card will maybe see play but I don't think as more than a 1 of due to the mana cost. Certainly not in burn.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:29 pm**

MDU, what songs did people complain about? They all seemed good to me.
I use too run lots off instrumental and classical pieces (non-vocal) (many of which are foreign) as a result I would get tons of "my ears are bleeding.comments" so I swapped back into hipsters/mainstream vocals songs which drastically reduced the hate mail (I also get some comments from the music artists which is always nice).

P.S. if more people
get active with the Youtube Filming scene we can create a circle and try and promote the website further which would be nice .
This is why I have stopped watching your videos

sorry, they are very informative but I can't stand that kind of music

I would love to hear some post-rock or something on your channel instead (I can heartily recommend the new Sleepmakeswaves but that would probably anger the cavemen that have been complaining to you so far...)

New artist discovered, thanks!

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:35 pm**

Granted his article was fairly dated. I do think it is interesting the idea of having no chains in Game 1. it's unclear how the meta will look but it is a nice thought. I don't dislike having both YP$ and Firedancer (probably MD/SB), it just means you could take out pheonix in the matchups where you are playing as control. However, I would be worried about not be able to apply pressure, so I do like having the 4th vault there (unclear whether that should be MD or SB)

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:48 pm**

I have been taking out Phoenix for SFD in the matchups where I they usually just block and get rebought. Seems to be working well. We definitely still want them in the 75 though. We do probably need Chains in the main deck. There are too many things that we need it to answer in game 1.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:39 pm**

I always sideboard out phoenixes against weenie decks but I have other creatures I'm bringing in that are strictly superior in those matchups. Doing that with dancers is legitimate. Let's you keep in boros charm vs random land/enchantment destruction which is nice.

By the by, I did finally get a game against mono black where I drew flamespeaker and lived the dream of drawing 2 cards, hitting mutavault plus helix, and drawing skullcrack the turn I needed it vs Whip. Draw 2, deal 8, gain 4 felt pretty good. He then untapped, killed it, duressed to see another speaker+land, then thoughtsiezed the flamespeaker, and I beat him to death with phoenix plus 2 mutavaults and then drew my skullcrack in time thanks to the prior "scry" 2 to stop lifelinked rats.

I need to keep better stats from my early testing on cockatrice though but I think i'm 4 for 5 on the card being good against black when I draw it. As you can
tell, I don't play a lot of games per week. Last week's DE was the first time both died to removal and I got stomped. The other time it just screened for vaults (which in hindsight should have been the other way around).

I think it got countered against UW today but it was the Planar version so it didn't matter. It's still definitely at its weakest here, no doubt.

Whether the new M15 cards push it out, I'm not sure yet but I'm trying this first:

[deck]
Creature
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Removal
4 Chained to the Rocks

Burn
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Stoke the Flames

Land

23 MDU's Mana base plus or minus a Guildgate and Forge

Sideboard

3 Boros Reckoner
1 Mizzium Mortar
1 Stoke the Flames
2 Pillar of Light
2 Banishing Light
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Wear // Tear[/deck]

I think the Hushwings are quite powerful but I'm just being cheap on MTGO since I expect
them to be quite expensive if they see modern play. They blank ETB effects against Bx, Gx, and Ux devotion strategies and against all 3, the 2/1 flier is very relevant. I could see swapping flamespeaker or reckoner with them here if I had MDU's budget.

I don't like dancers since I think my package deals with most creature decks more profitably but has more flexibility in all the other matchups without forcing us to keep in sub par spells.

Videos are uploading now, I'll link them tonight.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:53 pm**

Not quite sure Pillar is better than Reprisal. Exiling creatures only seems to be relevant with Whip.dec and Souls (which I don't think will see play)

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:55 pm**

Not quite sure Pillar is better than Reprisal. Exiling creatures only seems to be relevant with Whip.dec and Souls (which I don't think will see play)

Also vs Weird, Thassa, Courser or Gray Merchant.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:56 pm**

Not quite sure Pillar is better than Reprisal. Exiling creatures only seems to be relevant with Whip.dec and Souls (which I don't think will see play)

I think you're wrong.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:12 pm**

Doh, I just realized it said toughness.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:20 pm**

Doh, I just realized it said toughness.

Yeah, makes bringing in 2 against certain matchups a better idea since it hits double the cards reprisal does.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:30 pm**

it blaters about how cards like chained to the rocks are strange in burn and how he would just like to point everything to the face and win.

I keep seeing this opinion and I think it's the easiest way to tell that someone either hasn't played the deck or is playing the deck very sub-optimally.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:57 pm**

Turn 3 5/5's, turn 4 6/6 flyers, and pro-red token generators make it impossible not to run chains in a deck like this. The small critters have a hard time overcoming this unless you're playing an all in strategy like BossSligh and this isn't burn. I don't understand that opinion.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:16 pm**

So i understand how skullcrack is supposed to interact with pro red i.e. MoW, though my friend who's a lvl1 judge has said that at some large tournament a lvl5 judge ruled against it working so my question is does the judges decision affect any ruling outside that tournament or can i go about cracking skulls?

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:19 pm**

Nope, only affects that ruling. I highly doubt that a L5 would make such a ruling, especially since they only really come out for PTs.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:29 pm**

So i understand how skullcrack is supposed to interact with pro red i.e. MoW, though my friend who's a lvl1 judge has said that at some large tournament a lvl5 judge ruled against it working so my question is does the judges decision affect any ruling outside that tournament or can i go about cracking skulls?

Someone probably tried to target MoW with a red effect thinking Skullcrack would get around it. No lvl 5 judge is going to rule that a spell that says damage can't be prevented doesn't stop damage prevention. I hope.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:35 pm**

Went through memory lane reading the first page. Ahhh, the good times.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:56 pm**

Just had a guy quit on turn 3 of the second game of the last round of an 8 man after throwing around a lot of noob and scrub in the chat box because of playing burn. I had mulled to five as well. I laughed to myself and considered it a win against Naya Planeswalkers with the Ghitu bird token fella and Voice, which isn't necessarily a walk in the park.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:12 pm**

Turn 3 5/5's, turn 4 6/6 flyers, and pro-red token generators make it impossible not to run chains in a deck like this. The small critters have a hard time overcoming this unless you're playing an all in strategy like BossSligh and this isn't burn. I don't understand that opinion.

I remember Anthony Lowry making similarly dumb statements to the effect of cutting chains because it doesn't deal damage; except you know, it usually deals enormous damage.

People without relevant experience in the deck actually think it's a burn deck whereas from very early on we've said it's a tempo deck; chained is a pretty ridiculous tempo play.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:19 pm**

Agree, I respect Adrian sullivan as smarter then all of us, but chain is non-intuitively bonkers.

Having said that, he didn't cut the card completely, just relegated it to the sideboard which I guess is defensible for initial testing and I do think playing like, 1 aggressive mining in the board might be reasonable for long matches where you aren't being pressured(control) but chandra is likely 1000x better.

I do REALLY like how you get immediate value out of it and if you're seriously flooded, it's 4 mana, draw 4 at the worst which is a better rate then...probably anything in the last 10 years. The cute thing is it's very reasonable to imagine you have wear/tear in your deck after board and you can eventually just tear you're own card after getting retarded value out of it.

The tempo you lose probably isn't that big of a deal since if you're +4 cards, you're not really worried about giving control to much
time since you're still likely to be able to overload their mana.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:23 pm**

I love aggressive mining, but my experience is that you don't really want that effect until six mana in burn; but at that point it's hard to resolve and at all points previously it's substantially inferior to Chandra.

Worth testing though? Yes.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:52 pm**

You've become incredibly egotistical, beyond DtR and Reddit, you aren't shit. You seem to constantly be reminded that you are not as good as you think you are.
well technically Zem is not shit at DTR either as he has dropped public support for the site and tells me how lousy it is every time I talk to him on Skype, I don't use Reddit so I can't speak about that

now to be fair to Zem his country is small on the grand Magic stage...
but so too once was Canada and look at it now, perhaps the black magick bushland is next

a CFB affiliation is more than anyone on this site has going for them so credit is due where credit is due, but I am sure Zem is eager to prove himself with a top eight or a win in a pro event

and should that day never come DTR will not put its stingray barb through his steve irwin heart but rather we will let him keep on paddling back to the arms of that team we've never heard of and be glad for these occasional rude visits
To be fair, Zem did give us a lot of credit and recognition when he started with CFB. More than I think I personally deserved to be fair.

if's and when's

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:12 am**

Here's my videos from this morning. Resolution is still a bit eh. Youtube is supposedly editing it to get rid of the black box outline. Not sure why it did that this time. Also, more vulgarity! I was a bit tired this morning.

Match 1 vs Bg devotion. Not that it mattered because I didn't draw Flamespeaker, but Boros Charm is probably better here because of Abrupt Decay. Also, apparently I don't feel like playing my 6th land in game 2 for two turns...because!

Match 2 vs B devotion. I have an evil cackle over Flamespeaker. Not much else to say. This is why I play the card. Yes, this is usually how it plays out. I'm sorry I didn't adjust the volume of the Lavos song near the middle. I was rushing before I got out the door to work.

[url=https://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=impWGsZuQXk]Match 3 vs UW Planar Control[/url]. The game goes long because the guy puts stops in the strangest places. I continue cursing.

Match 4 vs Jund Monsters. Remember kids, don't drunkly throw lightning bolts against players who control monsters unless you have enough in hand to finish the player off.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:10 am**

All that gloating about Flamespeaker aside, curious if it mattered either way.

With charms, I charm him twice down to 10 that turn instead of the 12. Thoughtsieze takes him to 8 instead of 10 and then on my turn i draw a vault, lose a vault in the swing, bring him to 6 instead of 4. He slams Gary and goes to 10, I swing with phoenix, helix him to 4 instead of dead since helixing his Gary is a bit crazy with whip out. Next turn he whips his nightveil, swings and goes to 8, and steals my skullcrack with me on topdeck mode instead of him being dead.

That said, I understand if people don't like playing it because it has to connect until you get value and I admit that does make it higher variance without haste. See the counterspell vs flamespeaker game 3 when it could have been helix. Which walks into his dispel anyway. I know I say it in the video but I've grown to really hate helix in the UW matchup. It being an instant
doesn't really help the mana cost particularly when it's more vulnerable to all their cheaper counterspells. It might be different against the Dsphere version.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:22 am**

Turn 3 5/5's, turn 4 6/6 flyers, and pro-red token generators make it impossible not to run chains in a deck like this. The small critters have a hard time overcoming this unless you're playing an all in strategy like BossSligh and this isn't burn. I don't understand that opinion.
I remember Anthony Lowry making similarly dumb statements to the effect of cutting chains because it doesn't deal damage; except you know, it usually deals enormous damage.

People without relevant experience in the deck actually think it's a burn deck whereas from very early on we've said it's a
tempo deck; chained is a pretty ridiculous tempo play.

From what I can tell from some pro writing I read, they're pretty dismissive of calling it a tempo deck, aren't they?

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:12 am**

As a new player (1 year) who likes theory I have read many articles about "tempo" and there does not seem to be a true consensus on this. Mostly people agree that a "tempo play" is one where make a resource-neutral (or even negative) play that "nets" you time. TIme is expressed as either extra turns or extra mana (so chaining a demon = +3 mana).

In some sense - ANY deck that plays cheaper spells than the opposition is a "tempo deck". Some people consider mono-U a tempo deck because it plays lots of cmc 1 dudes. But obviously it does to a lesser extent than white weenie or sligh or RDW. By this logic - there are only 2 types of decks, tempo decks and attrition decks, but there is a sliding scale. I think you can consider ramping to be a tempo play (in the sense that mana==time), but I think people would look at you funny if you called monsters a tempo deck.

Certainly
the classic tempo deck is something like RU delver. Or at least that's what someone told me since I never played it. I don't see how the modern burn deck isn't a tempo deck. It's certainly not an attrition deck. Burn spells in general give you tempo by shortening the clock (going to the face). Super efficient spells like lightning bolt can obviously gain you mana/tempo as well. It's harder to get tempo off of a 2 mana burn spell, although combining it with a block or attack I think would qualify...

TL;DR: I don't know what the hell a tempo deck is. "Not Sphinx's Revelationl"

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:42 am**

Tempo is typically defined as landing some kind of early threat, whatever that is, and then using lots of cheap interaction to allow that threat to win the game. In this deck, that's mutavault, phoenix, or YP which uses your removal to finish 1 for 1'ing cards while they slowly beat you to death. Delver did the same thing using its signature card and likewise rarely won until turn 7-8.

Opposing this, are typical aggro to midrange decks like Mono u or Monsters which both spend most of their game just playing a diversity of redundant threats with, relative to tempo, much smaller amounts of interaction.

Control does it in reverse by playing a lot of interaction first in order to land a big threat later.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:09 am**

So I kept that hand we were talking about earlier, the on-the-draw-temple-plus-magma-jet-1-lander hand. Did not get there, mono blue opponent curves out and smashes me. He says, "if it makes you feel any better, I also kept a 1 lander." It did not.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:38 am**

I believe your chance to hit a land in 3 cards is only about 70%. It really depends heavily on the rest of your hand whether it is keepable.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:07 am**

Rest of the hand was fine. The 2nd land was 6 or 7 cards deep though, way too late. I'd keep the hand again, it's just annoying.

For reference, the hand was Temple, Magma Jet, Shock, Pyromancer, Phoenix, CttR, Lightning Strike IIRC

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:43 am**

Just had a guy quit on turn 3 of the second game of the last round of an 8 man after throwing around a lot of noob and scrub in the chat box because of playing burn. I had mulled to five as well. I laughed to myself and considered it a win against Naya Planeswalkers with the Ghitu bird token fella and Voice, which isn't necessarily a walk in the park.

I think I played against the same exact person (same deck and tons of rage). He started raging, so I trolled him a little, but he ended it with "I hope you die, karma baby, when it happens think of me." Here is the screenshot:

Anyways, has anyone been testing m15 cards? I'm
going to start with doing -2 Helix, -1 Mortars from the mainboard to test 3 Stoke the Flames (convoke burn). The number is likely to go down, but I want to draw it often to see how it performs.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:31 pm**

Last Time

I finally hit my 35 QP quota so I'll be taking a break from standard until July 30th (yeah.... I hit 35 much too early this season, burn is just really strong right now) I may still play it too vent once Modern annoys me too much

Anyhow I recommend the above list for people who are still play standard

I'll still be uploading my remaining footage which is just slightly more then a weeks worth (I'll also include a SB plan at the end (in about
another 1.5 weeks) so for now watch the darn games for the SB plan and like/sub).

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:35 pm**

Tempo is typically defined as landing some kind of early threat, whatever that is, and then using lots of cheap interaction to allow that threat to win the game. In this deck, that's mutavault, phoenix, or YP which uses your removal to finish 1 for 1'ing cards while they slowly beat you to death. Delver did the same thing using its signature card and likewise rarely won until turn 7-8.

Opposing this, are typical aggro to midrange decks like Mono u or Monsters which both spend most of their game just playing a diversity of redundant threats with, relative to tempo, much smaller amounts of interaction.

Control does it in reverse by playing a lot of interaction first in order to land a big threat later.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That is
not tempo.
But you did accurately define the true definition of what an aggro/control deck is. Delver is the best example of that - land an early threat, protect it with counter magic and tempos plays, and then proceed to win. Tempo plays are a way to gain incremental advantages in either board presence, cards, or time by keeping your opponent off tempo in a way that they're required to spend more resources than you to get ahead. For example, you opponent taps out to play a guy and you play Unsummon. You essentially Time Walked them. Another good example is when they aim a kill spell at your Snapcaster that's attacking and you blink it with a Restoration Angel. You've essentially caused them to discard a card, protected a creature, and advanced your board state.

You get better examples in Legacy, like with Daze and stuff.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:16 pm**

Just had a guy quit on turn 3 of the second game of the last round of an 8 man after throwing around a lot of noob and scrub in the chat box because of playing burn. I had mulled to five as well. I laughed to myself and considered it a win against Naya Planeswalkers with the Ghitu bird token fella and Voice, which isn't necessarily a walk in the park.
I think I played against the same exact person (same deck and tons of rage). He started raging, so I trolled him a little, but he ended it with "I hope you die, karma baby, when it happens think of me." Here is the screenshot: [
spoiler=][/spoiler]

Anyways, has anyone been testing m15 cards? I'm going to start with doing -2 Helix, -1 Mortars from the mainboard to test 3 Stoke the Flames (convoke burn). The number is likely to go down, but I want to draw it often to see how it performs.

I enjoy this.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:37 pm**

Tempo is typically defined as landing some kind of early threat, whatever that is, and then using lots of cheap interaction to allow that threat to win the game. In this deck, that's mutavault, phoenix, or YP which uses your removal to finish 1 for 1'ing cards while they slowly beat you to death. Delver did the same thing using its signature card and likewise rarely won until turn 7-8.

Opposing this, are typical aggro to midrange decks like Mono u or Monsters which both spend most of their game just playing a diversity of redundant threats with, relative to tempo, much smaller amounts of interaction.

nControl does it in reverse by playing a lot of interaction first in order to land a big threat later.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
That is not tempo.
But you did accurately define the true definition of what an aggro/control deck is. Delver is the best example of that - land an early threat, protect it with counter magic and tempos plays, and then proceed to win. Tempo plays are a way to gain incremental advantages in either board presence, cards, or time by keeping your opponent off tempo in a way that they're required to spend more resources than you to get ahead. For example, you opponent taps out to play a guy and you play Unsummon. You essentially Time Walked them. Another good example is when they aim a kill spell at your Snapcaster that's attacking and you blink it with a Restoration Angel. You've essentially caused them to discard a card, protected a creature, and advanced your board state.

You get better examples in Legacy, like with Daze and stuff.[/quote:
yxw1zlt7]

In other words, there are tempo plays but not tempo decks?

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:47 pm**

No there are definitely tempo decks. He was only saying that your definition of tempo wasn't exactly correct. You defined what a tempo deck wants to do, but not what the definition of tempo is.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:07 pm**

MDU, I haven't been playing 8 mans lately, quick question about Assemble.

Do you consider it good because Bg is way less popular than monoB or because you still think it auto wins vs. Bg with Golgari Charm?

EDIT: I'm going to be sad when rotation rolls around, I've become attached to this deck.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:16 pm**

Check out the big brain on Val! You one smart muthafucka, that's right! Thank for the clarification.

Elricity, Delver can be considered a Tempo deck, but it's really an Aggro/Control deck. A more traditional Tempo deck these days can be UR TempoTwin in Modern. It's whole plan is to counter and off-tempo the opponent until it's safe to combo off and win. When the combo plan isn't an option, it can flash in Snaps or Pestermites, make a tempo play, and then go on the offensive like an aggro/control deck would.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:17 pm**

Just had a guy quit on turn 3 of the second game of the last round of an 8 man after throwing around a lot of noob and scrub in the chat box because of playing burn. I had mulled to five as well. I laughed to myself and considered it a win against Naya Planeswalkers with the Ghitu bird token fella and Voice, which isn't necessarily a walk in the park.
I think I played against the same exact person (same deck and tons of rage). He started raging, so I trolled him a little, but he ended it with "I hope you die, karma baby, when it happens think of me." Here is the screenshot: [
spoiler=][/spoiler]

Anyways, has anyone been testing m15 cards? I'm going to start with doing -2 Helix, -1 Mortars from the mainboard to test 3 Stoke the Flames (convoke burn). The number is likely to go down, but I want to draw it often to see how it performs.

Wow, I read chat first but then reading the game history afterwards made it twice as funny.

>Thinks he understands the deck
>"Auto loses" to it because noobs

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn