Rx Burn

[Khaospawn]

Kids these days.

[hamfactorial]

Top lelz

[Valdarith]

Tian's deck is a work of art. Some comments:

1) Someone mentioned Deflecting Palm being bad, but that was actually an amazing call by Tian with Amulet Bloom being in the room. It basically prevents the Bloom player from going off until they have a Pact of Negation in hand.
2) I've brought it up before, but Wear / Tear is not a card I want to be running in my Burn deck. Destructive Revelry is almost always better (like, 95% of the time better), and running one Stomping Ground to board it in is just fine. The two pilots that top 8d a Pro Tour seem to agree.
3) Kor Firewalker in your Burn sideboard is just gross.
4) As much as I love Lavaman, I can't justify him being in the 75. He's good against Affinity and that's about it.

[Valdarith]

AJ Sacher had a little bit to say about Tian's deck:

http://youtu.be/ppxtH4ydHLY

[Khaospawn]

4) As much as I love Lavaman, I can't justify him being in the 75. He's good against Affinity and that's about it.

Good enough for me!

[Aodh]

It just feels excessive. I'm wary of running a 20 CMC 2 burn deck. I think RBg is best for speed, or RW is best for consistency and really good mirrors.

[Khaospawn]

Consistency and mirror tech should absolutely be what you want right now in the current meta.

Besides, Boros Charm > Bump all day. With Swiftspear and company, the charm does major work by either buffing them or saving them. Also, 4 damage is huge.

[Khaospawn]

Although, i do understand the dilemma of having a high number of 2 cost spells. 18 seems to be about the most I'd want for game 1.

[Aodh]

Thanks! And I've asked this before and am still not convinced: how are these lists running Kor Firewalker on like 13-16 white sources? You're like 90% to hit WW by turn 6 or later (which is late) and they're not often free.

[Khaospawn]

I think I've only ever had one game where I actually couldn't cast my Firewalker.

[GoblinWarchief]

Again i encourage you to watch tian's burn mirror from the pro tour, where it appears clear that firewalker is not very reliable as mirror tech. I know, as khaos pointed out, that not always you take 6 to cast him, but if you are not taking 6 you are playing tapped lands that is a real problem in a match all about speed. Combine this with the fact that not always you are able to have 2 white sources, and that firewalker is even not unbeatable (skullcrack after he blocks), and i think you are better off running something like burrenton forge tender or rest for the weary. In the end, i think the best mirror tech is just play mono red so you don't lose life at all, and if you want play dragon's claw in side.

The possibility of going mono red is also why i don't like helix that much : i want to splash for powerful cards (boros charm), not to help me recover the life i lost due to splashing. Basically, the first helix you play is just no lifegain, because if you just played mono red you wouldn't have lost three life from fetching a sacred foundry. So i understand the argument : "since i am splashing for other things, i will play some helixes if i find room to recoup the life loss", but not the argument " i splash to play helix ". Not that anyone said this, it's just to point out.

The arguments about swiftspear in the junk matchup are valid and i agree if you choose her for these reasons, but i still think it's a close call between her and devil because in other matchups devil is always 1 mana 4 damages, and all in all devil turn one is better than swiftspear turn one in any matchup i think, while topdecking them in lategame is basically the same although sometimes your opponent won't have blockers ready for swift. I just think a lot of people are playing the monk because she's the new hot tech (not you, khaos).

Valdarith: i don't know about deflecting palm, amulet bloom can just cast hive mind and kill you without attacking.... i don't like wear /tear too because adding one stomping ground and 4 revelries is a high upgrade for a low cost. Lavamancer at the moment is very good only against affinity and infect of the top decks (plus random things like merfolk and any creature heavy deck). I like running him because, besides single handedly winning against some decks, he's never really bad : against any opponent, if lavamancer survives is 2 guaranteed damages every turn, and i like this effect since unfortunately we have no vortex in modern.

[Aodh]

I think I've only ever had one game where I actually couldn't cast my Firewalker.

Then your sample size is small or you've had lucky (read: unlikely) draws or long games. Frank Karsten's mana article suggests 22-X W sources to cast WW on turn X 90% of the time. With 16 sources, X is 6 (actually slightly bigger since fetching takes 2 sources out of the deck). This is simply too late in the game to actually be meaningful. I understand that KF is insane in the mirror (provided he comes early and you don't get shocked out of the game), but there's no way he's reliable enough without more sources.

[Khaospawn]

I think I've only ever had one game where I actually couldn't cast my Firewalker.

Then your sample size is small or you've had lucky (read: unlikely) draws or long games. Frank Karsten's mana article suggests 22-X W sources to cast WW on turn X 90% of the time. With 16 sources, X is 6 (actually slightly bigger since fetching takes 2 sources out of the deck). This is simply too late in the game to actually be meaningful. I understand that KF is insane in the mirror (provided he comes early and you don't get shocked out of the game), but there's no way he's reliable enough without more sources.

My sample size is based on the last 3 (or so) months of playing online (and a lot of it was against Burn decks and UR Delver/Treasure Cruise decks)....so I would think that's adequate. Sometimes the games did go long, but often times I would play KFW early enough to where it was a huge turnaround.

I honestly don't think its fair that you dismiss my testimony as me either being "lucky" or that I'm basing my conclusions on a small number of games.

[Khaospawn]

Aodh, do you actually have any results to share or do you just base conclusions on other peoples' articles? Honest question.

And to add on the KFW thing, Dragon's Claw is a perfectly reasonable substitution to play, especially since mana fixing is never an issue. It's just that since Boros Burn is already in White for Boros Charm, it makes sense to play a card with a higher power level then Dragon's Claw. KFW is able to attack for damage, the Claw can't. And when you're on the backfoot, DC won't always save you, especially if there are attackers already on the field (Which KFW can block profitably most of the time. Even if they Skullcrack, KFW reduces it to a shock and you'll probably still take out whatever attacker you're blocking.)

[Khaospawn]

The possibility of going mono red is also why i don't like helix that much : i want to splash for powerful cards (boros charm), not to help me recover the life i lost due to splashing. Basically, the first helix you play is just no lifegain, because if you just played mono red you wouldn't have lost three life from fetching a sacred foundry. So i understand the argument : "since i am splashing for other things, i will play some helixes if i find room to recoup the life loss", but not the argument " i splash to play helix ". Not that anyone said this, it's just to point out.

Helix is good not just for recouping the life loss from the fetching, but for killing X/3's. The Zoo decks right now are a real thing and the Helices functionally serve as additional Searing Blazes, albeit a backwards kind since you're gaining life. You say that the first one played more or less allows you to 'break even' and you're right, but each additional one you cast helps stave off death for a turn or more.

It's very hard for Mono Red to deal with X/3 creature aside from Searing Blaze. Sure you have Rift Bolt and Lighting Bolt, but you don't want to spend those frivolously on creature removal if you have too. Things like Searing Blood and Forked Bolt have gone down in value with the decline of the Delver decks, so Lightning Helix fills that role in the Boros Burn deck.

The arguments about swiftspear in the junk matchup are valid and i agree if you choose her for these reasons, but i still think it's a close call between her and devil because in other matchups devil is always 1 mana 4 damages, and all in all devil turn one is better than swiftspear turn one in any matchup i think, while topdecking them in lategame is basically the same although sometimes your opponent won't have blockers ready for swift. I just think a lot of people are playing the monk because she's the new hot tech (not you, khaos).

I've said it before that there is a huge difference in the games where you see Goblin Guide and when you don't. Swiftspear serves as Guides 5-8 most of the time, allowing you to keep more openers and makes mulliganing more forgiving. They also allow you to stick to the same gameplan against Rock decks, rather than having to board out VD in Games 2-3. They oftentimes just become Liliana sac-fodder (in the games where they let the VD live and don't take damage) or ScOoze food.

[BlakLanner]

Jim Davis took down a Modern Elite IQ with a Burn deck as well this weekend. Helixes main and Firewalkers in the side.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30 ... sites.html

The only thing that is stopping me from unquestioningly playing this deck is that I am intrigued by a Jeskai Pryomancer deck that I saw in a video on SCG earlier this week.

[Khaospawn]

I mean, at this point, players better than us are doing big things with Boros Burn and KFW/Lightning Helix. Two decks in the Top 8 of a Pro Tour is no easy feat to come by, and Jim Davis is no slouch either.

Even though I was very slow to jump onto Boros Burn until a few months ago, a lot of the things I've discovered on my own are being echoed in the lists that are performing very well. I take this is as some small validation that I'm doing something right.

[BlakLanner]

The more I look at things, the more I think I am likely to fall into the fold. Hide/Seek and Rakdos Charm are very powerful but I am not sure if I really need them. My earlier decisions might be biased by the fact that Scapeshift, Twin, and Storm are big in my area and those cards stop them cold.

[Khaospawn]

Yeah, those cards don't reliably deal damage. Sometimes Rakdos Charm does, but it's usually never what you want it to be when you have it. Also, smart Twin players can see it coming a mile away and will play around it accordingly (and by that, I mean you'll most oftentimes end up just smashing a Spellskite, which isn't a terrible option, but you get my idea).

[BlakLanner]

I think I was drawing too much from my Legacy sideboarding where my choices are more geared toward "this stops you from flat out losing the game".

This is where I will be assuming the Jeskai Pyromancer deck I am working on fails.

[deck]Burn[/deck]

The articles posted on SCG in the last few days hammered home the usefulness of Lavamancer. Infect and Affinity are on the rise as well in my area and it helps immensely.

[Khaospawn]

I still think the sceptre is too cute.

[BlakLanner]

It may be. I just don't know what else to put there since I hate Shard Volley. It does give me some extra play against the more controlling decks.

[Platypus]

This was an interesting read: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12354

Explains those Deflecting Palms. I played a RW Burn deck last FNM, got a 3-1 result. Lost to Affinity first match, won against a RW homebrew, some UR deck (maybe delver), and against GW Hexproof. There was a couple of times in the first and last match where a timely Deflecting Palm would have been devastating, and I'm definitely going to try a couple next time.

[Khaospawn]

It may be. I just don't know what else to put there since I hate Shard Volley. It does give me some extra play against the more controlling decks.

A single Volley has served me well. 1 means that its never an awkward draw.

Sceptre would maybe be okay in a world without a large percentage of Junk players roaming the earth packing Abrupt Decay.

[Khaospawn]

This was an interesting read: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12354

Explains those Deflecting Palms. I played a RW Burn deck last FNM, got a 3-1 result. Lost to Affinity first game, won against a RW homebrew, some UR deck (maybe delver), and against GW Hexproof. There was a couple of times in the first and last match where a timely Deflecting Palm would have been devastating, and I'm definitely going to try a couple next time.

That was a great article.

[Aodh]

I think I've only ever had one game where I actually couldn't cast my Firewalker.

Then your sample size is small or you've had lucky (read: unlikely) draws or long games. Frank Karsten's mana article suggests 22-X W sources to cast WW on turn X 90% of the time. With 16 sources, X is 6 (actually slightly bigger since fetching takes 2 sources out of the deck). This is simply too late in the game to actually be meaningful. I understand that KF is insane in the mirror (provided he comes early and you don't get shocked out of the game), but there's no way he's reliable enough without more sources.

My sample size is based on the last 3 (or so) months of playing online (and a lot of it was against Burn decks and UR Delver/Treasure Cruise decks)....so I would think that's adequate. Sometimes the games did go long, but often times I would play KFW early enough to where it was a huge turnaround.

I honestly don't think its fair that you dismiss my testimony as me either being "lucky" or that I'm basing my conclusions on a small number of games.

That's why I clarified that lucky means you got the good side of variance. I'm not dismissing your testimony, but it doesn't make sense. Karsten's article is based it off of many runs and it says that you should see WW on turn 3-4 less than 90% of the time. I'm not sure how much less since it's not quantified, but if you're hitting WW early in the game, then you're getting lucky, period. In 10% of games with 20 sources, you should hit WW on 2. The fewer sources, the greater this percentage is... It's as simple as that.

I only play modern every once in a while, and burn is my deck of choice, but that doesn't mean I can't contribute. Your deck needs to be on 18 out of your 19 lands or better to cast KFW early consistently. Going down to 13-15 is going to make casting KFW extremely unreliable. This is my concern, and it's mathematically justified, which outweighs anything anybody anecdotally opines.

I am swayed by the opinion that RW is the best burn deck because it's consistent and has Helix for the mirror, but KFW seems reckless in the stock lists.

Checking out the article now!

[Khaospawn]

Read articles, make haste!

[Khaospawn]

Is anybody sleeving up Burn for their Spring Modern States?

I know i will be.

[BlakLanner]

I did not know that Spring States was Modern. I don't see myself playing many other decks for something like that.

[Khaospawn]

There's both a Fall and Spring States for Modern.

[BlakLanner]

I don't recall a Modern one last fall. I do see both events for the upcoming one.

[Khaospawn]

I went to last Fall's.

0-2 drop to Angel Pod with a 4C Burn list, and then i changed decks before diving into a 40 person IQ and made it to the finals before losing to Affinity (and the only guy to beat me in the Swiss. I was playing a version of Levy's Molten Rain/Cryoclasm/Peak Eruption list, but with Vexing Devils over the Shard Volley. It was fucking awesome.

[Khaospawn]

I had a strange idea for a Burn list:

[deck]
Creature 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the great Revel

Spells 28
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skullcrack
4 Searing Blaze
4 Boros Charm

Land 19
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground

Sideboard
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Combust
2 Dragon's Claw
4 Lightning Helix
2 Deflecting Palm
[/deck]

It's just all of the greed. I'll try to test it in the next week.

[Khaospawn]

Or maybe I won't. I don't know. Lightning Helix in the main seems very good right now...

[GoblinWarchief]

Basically i believe in people's opinions in this thread more than most pro players opinions on burn, because a lot of people here are red players for life like me, while pro players usually jump on the red boat when it is good, and while they are very good at magic i don't think some weeks of testing can be compared to life experience. I also don't like a lot of burn lists i saw recently from pros, and/or i saw them misplaying hard while playing burn. Actually i quite trust in jim davis because he played goblins in legacy until it was remotely competitive, so he must be an intelligent person.

Anyway i will try and play a list similar to the stock one at the moment.... i just know that when i played with swiftspear and firewalker i didn't like them, but i will try again and see what happens.

Going the path of 3/4 color greed is always attractive but i really think more than 2 colors (plus a minimal splash for revelry if you want), is wrong unless the metagame has no aggro decks.

[BlakLanner]

I had a strange idea for a Burn list:


It's just all of the greed. I'll try to test it in the next week.

I don't think you can splash both black and green. The mana base just gets too painful and we get too vulnerable to LD. This is especially true if the Helixes end up in the sideboard to make it fit.

[Khaospawn]

Oh, you can definitely can splash for all that.



Though just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[BlakLanner]

Touche. I will amend my statement to say that I don't think it is wise to splash both colors as it likely makes for a weaker deck overall.

[Khaospawn]

Also...

Just so everyone is aware, the plural form of "helix" is "helices".

Let's be civilized mages here.

[BlakLanner]

"Civilized" mages who melt our opponents' faces with fire, lightning, and lava? Oh the irony.