[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Jack]

No. You copy the spell, and the copies go on the stack.
Happy birthday Rednihilist!

[rcwraspy]

Happy birthday, Red Nihilist!

I think Chandra's +1 is basically an "I get my Phoenix back" ability. The 0 will be the most used. But like Z has said, it's definitely a build-around ability.

You obviously don't want to drop her on T4 and then 0 because you're mana-less, so the soonest you do it is T5. Which means that's probably the top of your curve. Hellkite and Conscripts are great top-end while they're around.

She likely fits in that probably-bad haste build I put in the brewing thread.

I want to like the gauntlet (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1372651234) and I want to think it's a powered-down Shrine of Burning Rage. But 5CMC? Yikes. I'm guessing unplayable.

[Jack]

My thoughts on Chandra: There have been some very good points made in on the last page, but I actually think that her ultimate is very good. Unlike Domri's, where you need creatures to make it work, you can ult her on an otherwise empty board and usually win the game, given that you actually hit a spell that deals over 1 damage. The only problem is, as you guys said, that you don't want to tick her up every turn.

[photodyer]

No. You copy the spell, and the copies go on the stack.
Happy birthday Rednihilist!

I know the spell goes on the stack. I'm checking my understanding of the difference in wording between Chandra's 0 and -7; the 0 says "may play it this turn", which I believe means that you can choose to cast it according to normal spell rules (e.g., instants any time, other spells main phase only). The ultimate on the other hand lacks said phrasing, which I believe means that the spell chosen goes on the stack in triplicate directly after you activate the -7, exile and choose the spell. Thus, all spells are effectively sorcery-speed as you can only activate a PW ability main phase, correct?

[Jack]

I believe that you have to put them on the stack immediately, since they are copies and not actual cards.

[photodyer]

Jerry, I was basically thinking about how good warleaders helix+boros reckoner is against agro, but I didn't want to play blue so I started brewing Dega stuff, then Jacob Van Luwen wrote about it on channelfireball.com and it was basically what I was thinking of.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... nd-ghosts/

You basically stall the game, hit 5 mana, then play cards that win the game every turn.

I want to tweak it adding things like RR and varying up the removal suite. Either instant speed removal like tragic slip or maindecking some rolling temblors sounds ideal.

Got out and saw the list--I agree
wholeheartedly with with your comments and considered tweaks. The list looks awefully prone to flood and has no mana sinks...RR or DP seem natural in such a high-land-count, long-game list. I also think it needs some good ole black removal; Victim hits most of what I care about, and again Sever seems to make sense as you will have the mana to flash it back for value. Then again, the flashbacks don't play well with RiP so I may be talking through my hat. Tribute would likely be in my list as well given the local penchant for Bant.

What are your thoughts on Keyrune? It seems rather underwhelming without KWR beefing it up, though I get that the big takeaway is that you never want to miss a land drop.

[rcwraspy]

No. You copy the spell, and the copies go on the stack.
Happy birthday Rednihilist!

I know the spell goes on the stack. I'm checking my understanding of the difference in wording between Chandra's 0 and -7; the 0 says "may play it this turn", which I believe means that you can choose to cast it according to normal spell rules (e.g., instants any time, other spells main phase only). The ultimate on the other hand lacks said phrasing, which I believe means that the spell chosen goes on the stack in triplicate directly after you activate the -7, exile and
choose the spell. Thus, all spells are effectively sorcery-speed as you can only activate a PW ability main phase, correct?

I don't see anything on Chandra's card that says her ability can be played any time other than sorcery speed, so as far as I can tell your understanding is correct.

I'm hardly a rules expert, though.

[windstrider]

Chandra looks quite good, but she'll be a skill test card since she just can't be dropped into an existing deck. I like that you have to play the spells she digs out, so x spells can be cast using her abilities. Good stuff.

[windstrider]

With Chandra's 0 ability, if you exile a land, would you be able to play that land even if you already played one that turn?

[Platypus]

No. You copy the spell, and the copies go on the stack.
Happy birthday Rednihilist!

I know the spell goes on the stack. I'm checking my understanding of the difference in wording between Chandra's 0 and -7; the 0 says "may play it this turn", which I believe means that you can choose to cast it according to normal spell rules (e.g., instants any time, other spells main phase only). The ultimate on
the other hand lacks said phrasing, which I believe means that the spell chosen goes on the stack in triplicate directly after you activate the -7, exile and choose the spell. Thus, all spells are effectively sorcery-speed as you can only activate a PW ability main phase, correct?

I don't see anything on Chandra's card that says her ability can be played any time other than sorcery speed, so as far as I can tell your understanding is correct.

I'm hardly a rules expert, though.

Neither am I, but there's a difference between the wording on the second ability and the ultimate:

0: Exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.

The ability is played at sorcery speed as usual, but to me the card you exiled can be played at sorcery or instant speed, depending on type, later in the turn.

-7: Exile the top ten cards of your library. Choose an instant or sorcery card exiled this way and copy it three times.
You may cast the copies without paying their mana costs.

Again, the ability is played at sorcery speed, and the copies goes on the stack immediately.

[rcwraspy]

With Chandra's 0 ability, if you exile a land, would you be able to play that land even if you already played one that turn?

With the rules clarification to land drops coming in M14 I want to say I don't think so, but I honestly have no idea.

[photodyer]

@rcwraspy - It's not a question of when you activate the ability--that is definitely sorcery speed. Her 0, however, says after you have activated her ability (exile card from your library) you "may play it this turn". I'm 90% sure that this means that the spell--be it creature, instant or what have you--is subject to the normal spell rules as you do not have to play it at all. Her ulti, on the other hand, has no such qualifying phrase, which I'm pretty sure means you cast the spell copies immediately after activating the ability in either main phase.

@windstrider - I'll be damned...I misread that somehow to be "spell"; I believe your interpretation is right on as it says you can play "card", not "spell". Thus, there is no whiff assuming you have the mana for whatever spell you might turn, and you don't lose lands. Better than I realized at first!
However no, you cannot play 2 lands I don't think as rcwraspy points out.

@Platypus - we're on the same page!

[Platypus]

With Chandra's 0 ability, if you exile a land, would you be able to play that land even if you already played one that turn?

With the rules clarification to land drops coming in M14 I want to say I don't think so, but I honestly have no idea.

I'd say 'no' with or without the M14 land drop change. Normally you can only 'play' one land each turn, through various effects you can 'put' additional land into play (Farseek etc). But if you get additional plays, then yes you can play a second land through the ability.

[rcwraspy]

@rcwraspy - It's not a question of when you activate the ability--that is definitely sorcery speed. Her 0, however, says after you have activated her ability (exile card from your library) you "may play it this turn". I'm 90% sure that this means that the spell--be it creature, instant or what have you--is subject to the normal spell rules as you do not have to play it at all. Her ulti, on the other hand, has no such qualifying phrase, which I'm pretty sure means you cast the spell copies immediately after activating the ability in either main phase.

Yes, sorry, I'm with you on that. I only mentioned the activation of the ultimate as sorcery speed in order to answer your question of casting the triple
copies. Since it looks like they go directly onto the stack, and since her ability can only be played at sorcery speed, you're effectively playing them at sorcery speed (with the technical caveat that you're stacking possible sorcery spells on top of each other as if they were instants).

I'm sure we'll get a good amount of Oracle rulings on her 0 and her ultimate.

[windstrider]

Even if you can't play another land, you can hold it until the second main phase to play it, which can lead to some very interesting scenarios. Does he have a land or a Shock? Chandra is getting tricksy as she matures.

Chandra's 0 does say that you may play that card this turn. I really want a rules clarification regarding playing an additional land with her ability.

[DroppinSuga]

The way her 0 ability is worded, it certainly sounds like you could play a second land if that's what you draw.

[hamfactorial]

The 0: ability doesn't give you any "you may play additional land this turn" abilities. It just lets you exile the top card and play it this turn from exile instead of your hand. It doesn't say "without paying its mana cost" or anything else funny.

This isn't complicated, redbroz

[DroppinSuga]

Ham being all smart and shit.

[hamfactorial]

#ReadingSwag

[DroppinSuga]

#CaliSwag

[windstrider]

Here's the article with the rules changes:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... ature/248e

With the wording regarding Djinn of Wishes, I'm guessing that the answer is no since Chandra's ability doesn't specifically grant another land play that turn.

Edit: As Ham just pointed out.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So I'm pretty much the only one that hates it? LOL maybe I'm just bad at evaluating cards but I see this being the red equivalent of Gideon, Champion of Justice. We'll see.

[Valdarith]

So I'm pretty much the only one that hates it?

Yep.

I mean, I don't think this is Koth 2.0 or anything, but the new Chandra is pretty strong. I'm excited to try to build a deck around her.

[hamfactorial]

The new Chandra isn't a bad planeswalker, it's just not as all-around good like JtMS. She'll fit into a certain style of red deck, but won't be an auto-include if you have a Mountain laying on your desk.

[RedNihilist]

I guess we should have expected this - MaRo said that her abilities would feature something unusual for red, and seeing all the commotion I guess he managed to get where he wanted to.

I guess I don't like her too much as she's not explosive enough for an aggro deck (no Chandra Deck Wins), and that +0 ability doesn't support too well tempo/control decks, as they want to draw answers, rather than cards that you must play on the spot.

Could work in a red intensive midrangey deck, but I can't figure out HOW, atm.

[rcwraspy]

[deck]
Creatures - 23
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
3x Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4x Falkenrath Aristocrat
3x Thundermaw Hellkite
3x Zealous Conscripts
2x Pyrewild Shaman

Instants/Sorceries - 10
2x Pillar of Flame
4x Searing Spear
4x Shock

Chandras - 2
2x Chandra, Pyromaster

Land - 25
4x Blood Crypt
4x Dragonskull Summit
10x Mountain
4x Swamp
3x Mutavault
[/deck]

No 1-drops, but everything has haste. Chandra gums up the 4-spot with Exava and Falkenrath, but she doesn't necessarily have to be dropped on-curve. I'm a little worried about double red for Zealot and Phoenix, but there are 18 red sources and 7 non-red sources. Maybe with no 1-drops it can mulligan well.

[Link]

Well she certainly fits my style of dump my hand onto my table.

With a lot of good creatures rotating out, I rather have her 0 than Domri's +1. I don't think Chandra is quite as build around as its being made out to be, I think she IS just generally "good" for what red wants to be doing.

I think she'll be more of a staple at 4cmc than ogre battle driver will for red deck wins.

I hear people saying (like my friend last night who was bashing her) "no way to protect herself"

Excuse me? I know you're used to tamiyos, garruks, and jace's, but I don't remember ever giving a shit about "protecting" myself in red. Did Koth protect himself? Or did he throw 4/4 mountains at people and dare them to finish them off?

Chandra's potential to clear a blocker when she comes down, then potentially clear TWO blockers later (let's say the swing a resto at her to drop her to 2 to kill her in two
turns) then you untap and +1 whatever didn't swing just seems sexy as hell, ESPECIALLY with what our curve looks like:

Foundry Street Denizen, Short Cutter, Pyromancer, bunch of 1/1s, chandra's phoenix etc. those don't look like creatures that will fare well in combat, but ones that will rape face if they can get in swarm style. You're down two blockers and I've got 4 lil dudes on the field? Overload dynacharge, your math is off son.

thats' creature MUs (generally I classify decks into two types since my plan is to kill them every time:)
Type 1: people that try to fend me off with creatures.
Type 2: People that try to fend my creatures off with spells and wipes.

With some decks being a mix that leans one way or the other.

Against Type 1, I think chandra's good for what I said earlier.
Against Type 2, Chandra basically says "draw 2, play the 2nd one this turn or not at all" which is fine with me when in topdeck mode.

Ok I guess she doe encourage building around her, but its
POSITIVE encouragement. If her 0 encourages you to play cards that will ALWAYS be good instead of situational ones (see: Brimstone Volley, vexing devil), then that's good.

Will her 0 hit a shock you have to use? Yeah ok. That's STILL a shock you would've drawn a whole EXTRA turn later without her.

Then again, I guess its probably just style.

I suppose if you're a more "safe" player you want a planeswalker to "protect" themselves so you can use them more than once or something, and you DONT like drawing extra cards that you're "forced" to play because you have narrow answers or cards in your deck or something.

pfff.

Ninja: raspy that deck looks topheavy as hell and the mana base makes me want to kill myself.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

Unless a card/permanents ability says you can play a second land that turn you only get one land drop per turn, with the wording being as such that you may play that card, a second land would put you sol.

[rcwraspy]

Unless a card/permanents ability says you can play a second land that turn you only get one land drop per turn, with the wording being as such that you may play that card, a second land would put you sol.

Which lets you keep a land in your hand until after you activate her 0. Since you can play the 0 ability exiled card any time that turn (given its normal instant/sorcery speed), you can still drop a land from your hand later if you need it to cast the spell.

[LP, of the Fires]

PFFF. No way to protect herself? The way she protects herself is by your creatures KILLING your opponent in a non-trivial matter forcing your opponent to throw resources away or die. When the red deck is doing it's thing, your opponent will be under way to much pressure to be able to attack Chandra.

Also, in all this whoop la, I actually forgot mutavault was being reprinted. That oversight actually makes Chandra a LOT more exciting as where just freerolling threat density.

[rcwraspy]

Ninja: raspy that deck looks topheavy as hell and the mana base makes me want to kill myself.

Meh. Really just brewing. Could be crappy, I don't know.

But it's certainly not a sligh build or an AIR build with tons of 1-drops. It's not meant to be. It's meant to out-value your other stuff and be hasty as hell, which works very well with Chandra's 0 ability. If her 0 said "if it's a creature card, that creature gains haste until end of turn" then I'd change the deck up.

It's running 25 land so the 7 4-drops and 6 5-drops are more tolerable.

I don't know if the colors just don't work, though.

[photodyer]

I guess we should have expected this - MaRo said that her abilities would feature something unusual for red, and seeing all the commotion I guess he managed to get where he wanted to.

I guess I don't like her too much as she's not explosive enough for an aggro deck (no Chandra Deck Wins), and that +0 ability doesn't support too well tempo/control decks, as they want to draw answers, rather than cards that you must play on the spot.

Could work in a red intensive midrangey deck, but I can't figure out HOW, atm.

I would not be too hasty (aren't I punny)...I think she may fit exactly into "old school" RDW, and (not putting any words in his mouth) zeman also mentioned the possibility. As LK said, her +1 goes with creatures, and as
someone else pointed out, it is particularly handy for getting her phoenix back. Young Pyromancer pumps out creatures with the casting of spells, Battledriver can pump things up as they ETB, Mutavault doubles lands and creatures...and that's just what we've seen in this set so far. Add in a few more value creatures and a healthy dose of burn and you're on your way back to something approximating 20/20/20. Obviously we need more good, cheap burn, but we have a good start. My point being that I really think Chandra has the potential to support a range of deck styles. Wizards made it clear that this set was about giving Chandra her day, and I'm really liking the way things are coming together. The flavor cohesiveness is just cool to me as well...Chandra is really the poster child for all that is red.

[Nuwen]

n+1 hand size seems good and gets better as opponent's hand size nears 0. Anything that can fix hands and give a consistent deck even better odds seems worth it, imo (8 outs for lethal? 16 outs for lethal? Two chances on one turn seems valuable).

I think she'll "protect" herself by daring your opponent to spend a card or swing a blocker body at her. Shortcutter, haste, burn, evasion, overloaded pump, threaten can punish someone for pausing to kill a planewalker with survival resources.

[Christen]

2-1 in DGR draft tonight. Lost to a topdecked Skylasher when I had lethal on the field.

Also, I've done 3 live DGR drafts so far and I've always fallen on Naya colors.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (24)
4 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (11)
1 Devil's Play
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
3 Chandra, Pyromancer

Lands (25)
22 Mountain
3 Mutavault
[/deck]

[hamfactorial]

Disregard my last post, some Gatherer searching debunked my wild theories.

[DroppinSuga]

Ham, why haven't you had my love child yet?

[hamfactorial]

I only go for redheads and redthirsts

[Calamity]

[deck]
Creatures (24)
4 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (11)
1 Devil's Play
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
3 Chandra, Pyromancer

Lands (25)
22 Mountain
3 Mutavault
[/deck]

Really like the look of this list, off the top of my head I'd try hound of griselbrand over the riders

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (24)
4 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (11)
1 Devil's Play
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
3 Chandra, Pyromancer

Lands (25)
22 Mountain
3 Mutavault
[/deck]

Really like the look of this list, off the top of my head I'd try hound of griselbrand over the riders

Hellrider will do more damage over time than Hound here, and since you're running 27 creatures (including Mutavault) there's no reason not to play Hellrider. Hounds would be a sideboard option to
come in for Conscripts vs aggro.