Dies to Removal

I've spent the last hour doing day1 vote analysis

while I write a post heres a picture for you guys to look at:

I've been thinking about the way day 1 ended, specifically MoJo hammering raspy and then blocking my mail.

This is admittedly a bit WIFOM, since I screwed up by not verifying his ability. I assume it's real, but I'm not sure whether a mailblocker role is a town or a scum ability in this setup. I could see it being either faction, but my scenario assumes scum.

From a scum perspective, MoJo could have seen his buddy raspy at L-1 near the deadline, read my post stating that I was willing to hammer, and done so instead. By hammering him and immediately calling me out for delaying, it makes him look good for hammering scum, makes me look bad for not doing it, and gives him and his remaining buddy a convenient target for day 2. He's currently voting me, along with Red. It will be difficult for 2 scum players to get a mislynch without 1 being on the wagon, so watch closely as the day develops.

Why does me neglecting to test indicate anything other than I'm a dumbass? Please explain the scum motivation behind not testing your ability, if it was intentional.

I asked him to identify the scum motivation behind me not testing his ability. He's posted since then, but not replied to me. If I was scum with a mail-based ability, for sure I'd test it to see if he could stop me.

I'm still going to keep my vote on Jack since he's not doing anything, but I may switch to MoJo after an ISO re-read, which begins now.

Vote Wraith

time to go reading

Have fun. How is your read on Jack since you thought I made a "bad" vote?

leaning town. Your vote on him was bad, the reasoning was bad, I'm fairly certain I explained this. If I didn't, even though you voted him right after I did, I thought your reason was poor.

@Rez, Are you still interested in a LMD vote? Did you see a careful correspondence with RCW and LMD? Meaning they seemed to avoid each other? Same goes for Jack when i think about it. If you have any questions; I can answer them Friday night (posted before 6pm). I have to get up at 4:30 AM to be at the Lubbock testing center saturday.

I'm not terribly interested in voting LMD today, but I would listen to a case that takes into account things that happened at the end of day1.

I did vote raspy mostly just because his wagon was most likely get 7 votes. However, I think the only scum on his wagon would be found in the first 4 votes. The last 4 came in an hour before the deadline, so it would be a far better plan for scum to just wait for the day to time out rather than end it early by killing their teammate. A lynch wasn't inevitable, and I think mafia would have loved for the day to end with 6 votes on raspy and town not even getting so much as a word from him.

Tell me what you think about ham.

I'll be honest: I wasn't trying to squeeze anything from that post.

Now, I'm happy we're being on a rest from that rezombad vs LMD thing from Day 1, yet I'm still waiting for rezombad's motivation for his last vote on Wraith.
At the same time, I'd like Wraith to do a re-read on the last few posts from Day 1.

Vote hamfactorial

his serial killer thing bothered me and I wanted to see if it went anywhere.

unvote

someone who's less lazy than me should go back and see who was pushing the other wagon(s) over rcw.

I literally have not read anything this day so yeh.

see above image

unvote

The thing I don't get about Jack, Red, is that he switched from LMD to rcw when the wagons were 4:4. I don't get why he'd do that as scum.

so I'm town, Red can be town. C_P is duh!town. If Jack is town and Wraith is town Roleblocker and CM/MJ is town... that's an all-town wagon. the thing that's bugging me is why would Wraith randomly claim a roleblock early D1 if he was scum (probably a scum roleblocker if he was fakeclaiming).

I think scum HAS to be in Jack/Wraith... I like Jack's play a bit better but I'm hesitant to lynch Wraith tbh. Ugh.

Let's say it's an all-town wagon. Remaining players: rezombad, Dechs, ham, LMD. LMD was the counterwagon to scum... but LMD wasn't voting rcw yesterday? rcw also wasn't
voting, but since he's conf-scum I'm not touching that WIFOM.

Dechs replaced Suga, I'm getting newbtells from his slot now. I remember not liking Suga early yesterday, but Suga parked his vote on rcw D1 when he had the chance to join other wagons, yeah? Although, Dechs did move the slot's vote to LMD eventually... Argh.

And ham/rezzy I thought was townVtown. I remember ham being townish-self-aware and rezzy tunneling on ham doesn't seem like a good move as scum.

I'm actually stumped at this point.

But I think we actually hunt off-the-wagon today...

if scum has to be jack/wraith why did you unvote wraith and not revote jack?

pie I started to read your long post but then you started calling your own points WIFOM and I stopped caring.

The thing that's bothersome about ham's lack of mail is the disconnect seen here:

Easy enough to verify that ability though, thanks MoJo.

Rez:

I didn't test his ability, which was pretty boneheaded. I wasn't going to send any mail last night, so I forgot about the whole thing until you just mentioned it.

posts:

If nobody else votes for you and we go into tomorrow without a lynch, I won't be upset about it.

My list of townies includes C_P, Wraith (though one of these days he'll roll scum and next level us with crazy talk), raspy and rez.

Unvote
Vote LMD

Let's get this wagon rolling (again)

I'll cast the hammer vote unless we need raspy to answer other questions before deadline. Is he around? I'm on my phone so I don't see who's online.

You paint me as blatantly non-voting, while I was active and stated clearly that I would cast the vote with a half hour left.

Vote hamfactorial

for his double-talk and the disconnect between his words and actions.

I don't see it

I stated before that I didn't want a day 1 mislynch, asked for some input from the players on whether a no-lynch was better than a mislynch and everyone said that a mislynch was better. I wasn't suspicious of raspy, hadn't looked at him at all until the deadline, but was willing to hammer him, as recommended by everyone here.

Yeah, I fucked up by not testing MoJo's mail bounce. We've been over this, but still nobody has been able to show me why that is a benefit to scum.

If I was trying to hide, I'd say that I sent mail to io2 since he's not here to verify it. If scum, why would I admit to something that makes me look devious?

You went from willing to no-lynch to willing to hammer someone who was in your town pile without making a single post about them besides vaguely asking if he was around to no one at all.

And then you went from:

"Easy enough to verify that ability though, thanks MoJo."

to

"I wasn't going to send any mail last night"

to

"I screwed up by not verifying his ability. I assume it's real"

I already explained favoring a no-lynch. Choosing 1 post at the beginning and one days later does not damning evidence make.

I went over not suspecting raspy (which was clearly wrong, I don't claim to be a good mafia player).

I didn't plan to send any mail before MoJo used the bounce on me, so I forgot about it immediately. The deadline was right before lunch on a work day, so my time was easy to spend elsewhere instead.

Post 1 - Ham/LMD scum, CM/imopen town. Seems weird or arbitrary, but nothing much of note for the moment.

Post 2 / Post 3 - his reasoning for ham being scum is for spamming during RVS, which I think is more of a nulltell. He votes ham for being self-conscious in addition to the previous reasoning, which again I don't find a scumtell? I could see laying down the vote for pressure or for easy-to-explain reasoning.

Post 4 - "Yeah, vote stays" in
response to ham saying the RVS spam "might be, might not be" scummy. Not exactly helpful reasoning...

Post 5 - ham offers a counter, rez repeats himself. I don't find this to be a very townie way of going about voting here. It's kind of tunnel-y and comes off very forced.

Post 6 - ham comments that Z has been mad at rez for being terrible, an understandable comment regardless of alignment given that dealing with someone tunneling you is frustrating, I've been there. Saying 'way to overreact and then start mudslinging' is just coming off as using buzzwords to push a lynch to me.

Post 7 - interaction with rcw that is honestly kinda null.

[url=http://diestoremoval.com/
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2548&p=215460#p215460]Post 8[/url] - "Rev up those chainsaws" seems like an awfully defensive reaction to Wraith voting him. Not liking it.

Post 9 - content!

'Sarcasm is scummy' - it isn't. Also, I really don't get the logic here, it seems forced. Being sarcastic =/= being vague. I don't like this at all.
'It doesn't help catch scum' - neither does tunneling on one player? He switched his vote to Jack but didn't explain it (and switches back in this post).

'Slip?' - not liking the mention of this, especially given Wraith's post was at 3:30pm, and if this was anything near a serious suggestion it's terrible. Also, the explanation in parentheses throws me off. It's something scum like to do; explain themselves constantly when it doesn't really matter. rcw did it a lot, look at my 'case' on him and you'll
find a few examples.

His response to Wraith, again, overdefensive.

Now, he unvotes Jack. He voted him in a previous post I didn't link here, but I'm going to go back and check the context for that. Rez and Wraith jumped on Jack for a post about the game dynamics. Rez comes back 4 hours later w/ reasoning (Information Instead of Analysis), which I think is kind of a misuse of that word.

The thing I don't like is that he calls Wraith's vote on Jack bad, says he's pinging him but less so, but implies Wraith is scum with stuff like his 'slip' or Wraith's vote on rez. I don't feel right about this.

He keeps pressing ham-scum here and here.

[url=viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2548&p=216622#p216622]Post 10 - ham PBPA[/
url]

- Reasoning for thinking post 2 is scummy seems bad/forced.
- The asking-CM-thing... I don't know how Rez interpreted it like that, but he did.
- 'Why am I scum' is not necessarily indicitive of being worried how you look to others. Things like hesitance in voting are. Asking why someone's voting you is simply asking for reasoning, which to be fair, Rez did not give in his first post. Calling someone scum and then calling them scum for asking why is... kinda bad actually.

Stuff like this just continues, and is pretty much standard tunneling. But it feels to me like scummy, forced tunneling in a way and I'm not liking it.

My only other read that I care to have right now is LMD being kind of scummy and lurking hard. Ill work on a few questions for him later today to try to engage him depending on the responses I get from this post.

This pinged me though, in the vein of scum overexplaining like I said above.

I'm trying very hard to look at every
post neutrally but it's difficult. tl;dr is there's a lot of tunneling and seemingly forced logic going on with rez. I can't tell if that alone is town or scum, but I am getting some slight scumpings with how he's worded things, and some of his reads (calling Wraith scum yet null, his weird switch on/off Jack, noting LMD but not engaging, etc.)

More coming.

Post 11 - "Where's the scum motivation from me?"

Well, since you asked... I did say earlier I didn't see rezscum because he started a huge fight with ham and dragging yourself into town spotlight isn't always good.

However, when most of your case is based on your top scumspect being self-aware and defensive, questions like these seem hypocritical at best.

The scum motivation from rez is that he wants to jump onto a wagon to push a mislynch. Simple. Ham, assuming he's town since I'm assuming Rez is scum (this is not a fallacy, since we're talking about finding scum motivation), would be an easy target since he's being self-aware, joking about, etc. The logic rez is using is easy to push with, and he tends to use every single post ham has made and twist it to be scummy in order to hammer
the point home.

The scum motivation for acting as such allows the player to not comment much on any other ongoings and force a tunnel on his target. If the target gets lynched, it allows the player to 'collect' his reads and move on to another, either by doing the same thing, or faking confusion/uncertainty later and sheeping. This also distracts the town from hunting anywhere else if the player is vocal enough about his target.

The town motivation, conversely, is to continuously pressure one possible member of the scumteam.

Which side of the argument has more substance?

Post 12 - "I wouldn't be surprised if Red wasn't town" was the original post. Actually, the reverse of this is "I wouldn't be surprised if Red was scum.", and I don't like rez's attempt to 'fix' the 'double negative'. He continues in [url=http://diestoremoval.com/
viewtopic.php?p=217656#p217656]this post[/url] and it comes off as misrepping. I don't find that townie at all.

imopen calls rez out on this actually, if you read the surrounding context. I don't like the post in response to this actually, the 'don't respond to questions not being asked of you' comes off as 'don't expose that I'm using terrible logic' to me.

Didn't rez answer a question earlier directed at someone else and rcw called him out on it? Huh.

He then votes Jack and FoSes imopen, which I find incredibly defensive. Also not liking how he tunneled on ham all of D1. Then he moves onto Jack. Then immediately moves off and back onto ham. And then moves back onto Jack after the ham wagon starts losing traction... with bad reasoning and 'suspecting' the player calling him out on his shit.

Post 13 - "I FoSed you just to bait."

... Yeah.

Post 14 - "I like lmd for scum, and have since the first page"

I SWEAR TO GOD IF REZ FLIPS SCUM WE'RE RUNNING LMD UP A FLAGPOLE.* Wasn't rez not voting LMD or rcw at the end of D1? *puts on tinfoil hat*

"Ham is probably fine for now." - what?!

*he does vote LMD the second LMD requests replacement... that seems kind of odd if they're both buddies, so maybe nvm.

Post 15 - "I voted you back on p1 because you were pinging me."

rez explains his reasoning for calling LMD scum every so often, which actually explains nothing. "There are probably more than one scum so saying I can't suspect more than one person is nonsense. And saying reads
can't change is also nonsense." just seems like a defensive, accusatory response that doesn't really explain anything. Rez has never really said why LMD is scum, other than lurking. I don't like this.

He says he's gonna case LMD here. Waiting.

Post 16 - content!

Wraith and Jack thrown back into null. ham/imopen/LMD are null-scum.... and now Red is scum.

I don't know if I can make it farther, but maybe something later will make me think rez is town.

Here and here he goes back on LMD, still not explaining himself.

This post is funny with an rcw scumflip.

And I'd think that the night kill gives you just as much to go on as a mis-lynch. Just look at who the dead guy was most suspicious of.

[quote="rezombad » Mon May 12, 2014 9:57 am":
rsmfceiy]Allow me to ramble

Would scum kill the person that showed the most suspicion toward them or would they kill someone who was vocal against someone who is town?[/quote]

Am I even remotely going the right direction here?

I feel like I could go in circles forever.

If scum kills Rez and he's on LMD's case really hard, then it makes LMD look like scum. So scum wouldn't actually do that if LMD were scum, so that makes LMD look like town. But they'd know we'd be thinking that, so that makes LMD look like scum. But they'd know we might think that far ahead...

I just wanted to quote this given the rcw scumflip.

I didn't plan to send any mail before MoJo used the bounce on me, so I forgot about it immediately. The deadline was right before lunch on a work day, so my time was easy to spend elsewhere instead.

If your time was better spent elsewhere, why did you take the time to say you were going to test his ability?

-----

I didn't miss a question in there for me did I, Pie?

Post ??? - vote Wraith

because you mentioned a SK

Not because of his terrible push on LMD yesterday then switching to rcw last-minute? That's your only reasoning?

What happened to red being scum?
What happened to LMD being scum?
What happened to Jack being scum?
What happened to ham being - oh you're voting ham now. ok.

the pic doesn't do much but it's nifty. p.s. - Rez was voting LMD end of day, ignore my point earlier about him not voting either. my bad.

if scum has to be jack/wraith why did you unvote wraith and
not revote jack?

reading is tech. "let's say it's an alltown wagon". I'm assuming that no scum was voting rcw yesterday for the moment.

I'd comment on other things (and yeah, ham not testing MJ's ability is weird) but I'm worn out.

I didn't really ask you any questions that need answering, I don't think, but it is a big list of reasons why I think you're scum.

oh I guess that last post has questions.

I didn't plan to send any mail before MoJo used the bounce on me, so I forgot about it immediately. The deadline was right before lunch on a work day, so my time was easy to spend elsewhere instead.

If your time was better spent elsewhere, why did you take the time to say you were going to test his ability?

-----

I didn't miss a question in there for me did I, Pie?

testing his ability occured to me, I posted it, then forgot about it during the night phase.

I
promise you that if MoJo uses it on me again, I'll test the shit out of it.

Will you test it as intensively as BBBSG?

I doubt the game will go that many rounds, but I'll certainly stream the results!

Still don't see a reason to change my vote yet. Inflateablepie is on rez's case, but needs to posts a list of questions like he did with Rcw (clear and numbered). Jack really needs to scum hunt as his lack of town effort is noticeable. Same goes for MoJo.

Will be out till Tuesday morning as Memorial Day is a major holiday for my family.

I really don't need to post a list of questions.

p.s. - going to NC for 9ish days starting tomorrow. I'll try to keep up in activity but it will definitely be less than usual for about two weeks.

So the front half of this weekend has been really fun, and as a result I haven't had time to get to this game. I should get to my laptop sometime this evening.

Ham has been giving off strong town vibes lately, and the situations in pie's text walls last page seem a lot more possible if he's scum (or did I read this wrong?)

I don't think I'm following you: who should be scum?

Pie is surprisingly convincing. Ham's reaction to votes and scum suspicion has been much better than Rez's. They both still look a little suspect to me.

Is it possible the day 1 stuff between Ham and Rez was scum distancing?

Meaning that they're both scum? That seems kinda appealing to believe, but I just don't think Ham is scum.

I'm here - give me a couple of minutes to read through.

That's the kpaca smiley.

-Who is kpaca?

CM spot needs to give out an opinion or read as he was the hammer. Thoughts on Jack so far? Ham's strange admission of non-mailing (could be for fear of Red's claimed watcher ability). Is Red null, town, or scum to you? Why?

I think the CM slot should give a reads list in his next post. He replaced in a couple of hours before deadline and didn't really do anything except hammer rcwraspy.

These 2 posts show that MJ is using some ability to try and effect ham by mail. Is his ability really used via in
posting? Does it affect mail from AND to Ham? This seems odd to me and he has been silent since. Based on this, Ham seems to be the weaker vote as MJ has tons to explain. Red is pushing a Ham vote that he wants supported by my reads. That is scummy as shit to me when MJ was the hammer vote with very strong scum tells.

Hm, really? -I'm pretty sure that was a faked day action.

I'm pretty sure Wraith/RedNihilist is town on town, and we should get back on track.

I still have trouble believing Wraith is scum. -You make a good point about the vote analysis, but he has reacted so genuinely throughout Day 1 and has made an honest, active effort of scumhunting.

I view Jack hopping back on the rcwrasy lynch as a last-minute bus.

I agree with hamfactorial here. I think Jack should be the lynch today. -I'm pretty sure that everyone voting Wraith is town, but stop that. You guys are being bad.

Alright, I've read through, give me a moment to sort my thoughts.

READS

Cursed_Pride

Wraith223
Lord_McDonalds
InflatablePie
hamfactorial


Dechs Kaison
rezombad
RedNihilist

Mogadishu Jones
Jack


Wraith has consistent genuine responses and is actually trying to scumhunt. -Don't know why the wagon on him sprung up.

Lord_McDonalds was the counterwagon to scum.

Pie has been trying to solve the game since Day 1.

hamfactorial had townie indignation in #170. -He's been scummy, but my gut says that he's low hanging fruit.

Similar spot with Dechs. -He has a couple of posts that make me rub my eyes, but I'm willing to accept the effort he's putting in, plus #742 is probably highly paranoid town.

Need to reread rezombad, I listed his as town but I didn't put it in my
notes and I forgot.

RedNihilist and Wraith feel like town on town, and I'm willing to dismiss his claim as town after rcwraspy flipped a Wiretapper JoaT variant.

Mogadishu Jones - seriously, this guy has contributed absolutely nothing of worth since Day 2 began. -I already scumread his slot during the Night, and his total lack of content makes me comfortable lynching him.

I've been through why Jack is scum.

I recommend lynching Jack today. -I can case him if you guys want, but he's pretty self-explanatory to me.

Does anyone object to lynching him, or have a townread on him? -I will crush those into bits.

I'm pretty sure that imopen2 was killed because scum wanted a low info kill + to blend into the background.

-I took another look at rcwraspy's associative tells and rezombad and RedNihilist get bumped up a tier.

Cursed_Pride

Wraith223
Lord_McDonalds
InflatablePie
rezombad
RedNihilist

Dechs Kaison
hamfactorial


Mogadishu Jones
Jack


Game over.

Everyone please vote Jack in their next post. We're done here.

I'm sold.
Unvote
Vote Jack

Let's hang some scum.

So who's scum if I'm town? How does town benefit if I'm lynched and roll town?