Dies to Removal

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:10 pm**

You don't wear a bold tag here is my point. None of us do, even if we're staff.

Also, you're responding to an obvious troll with grenades. Do not feed trolls. Why do you think no one responds to KCW?

If you're not in the mood, pull a Sene and walk away from things or just don't respond to them at all. If your issue is it's hard to talk to people here because they're easily agitated... don't embody that by being the lit fuse (the part of the fire in this analogy is NoHomer's troll), because negativity and aggression breeds more negativity and aggression (re: my response and subsequent apology).

Like I said, I'm willing to be level headed calm and mature. Most people ITT are, even if a lot of their posts are jokey or tongue in cheek -- we're here to have fun. This thread and being serious and stabbing our dicks off with internet rage is not our MO.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:11 pm**

Sorry if it seems like I'm chiding you, I'm trying to be open and honest since like 3-4 posts ago I was dropping sacs of textual bile.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:18 pm**

I have a hard time taking The Guardian seriously after his imperious attitude and pot shots at the gutter in SYM back when the curse news broke.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:21 pm**

If Galspanic stopped behaving akin to a "Village Simpleton" maybe I'd feel less inclined to call him out on his passive/agressive ways. Except that everyone lost a crapton of time with his willing to "fix things" (like
calling back kcw to make "the last Gutter post(TM)")
what
use the search function
he never called me back for anything you idiot

use the search function

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:24 pm**

I think you are wrong. I am not trying to be an authority figure, and I can only assume you think because I wear a bolded tag, I believe that. I apologize if my actions may have not shown what I meant, or implied otherwise. I just wasn't in the mood to deal with someone throwing grenades, and I was annoyed that no one seemed to stopped him. To me, that felt like I was dealing with an entire hive mind, not a single person (I didn't look at his history like Shalako did, so I should have known better).

1- We don't stop people. Sorry?

2 - If you had bothered reading even the last couple pages of the thread you're posting in you'd have seen people asking Homer, "Who are you?" The sort of question that you ask a zero post
troll. Everyone else seems to be ignoring his existence, except for the person who thinks his trolling is grenade-throwing.

"Who are you?" WHAT A HIVE MIND!

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:33 pm**

I have a hard time taking The Guardian seriously after his imperious attitude and pot shots at the gutter in SYM back when the curse news broke.

The trick to reading those is to add "Manders wanted me to say:" at the front of all his posts.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:41 pm**

I don't think Gals and Nai are cowards. But they don't seem to be gluttons for punishment, either.

If you guys call down for a minute, I don't think you'll find TCM is being unreasonable here, at all.

If you're a mod on a forum, you don't punish people for behavior that took place elsewhere, but if you're deciding what to do about conduct that took place on your site I can hardly say it doesn't make sense to take behavior from elsewhere into account when deciding whether to let someone back in who might go on a rampage, and use whatever evidence (twitter, facebook, their blog, whatever) in making that decision.

I did that myself, as admin, and I'd do it again. You have a job to do - to protect the site from people who want to mess it up. If it's a good enough tactic for law enforcement, it's good enough for me.

Kpaca
and a lot of other people should never have been banned to begin with. I think that's pretty painfully clear. And I think that because that's the case, the behavior that's taken place since then ought to be ignored. It should not matter - the initial actions were invalid and that clearly and understandably antagonized everyone here.

But if I were focused solely on your guys' attitude alone, and I wasn't paying attention to how you guys came to be so (rightfully) PO'd to begin with - I'd be pretty hesitant about letting you guys back in too. Obviously, you guys are not happy about what's happened and you're not ready to forgive. That much makes sense - and it is something that's completely under your control.

Humiliating to cave in, when the initial bans were unjustified? Sure. But I take them at their word that they'd let you back in, if you weren't lashing out at most any staff member who comes within reach. If you don't want to bend the knee on principle, I can respect that. But at the
very least, if people want to have their appeals taken seriously, they need to chill out and quit taking the most pessimistic possible assessment of the staff at every turn. However bad it's been with them, and it's been pretty bad, it's not as bad as you guys are fond of saying it is. Like, they're not a cabalistic group of corrupt Bond villains, people. They're just a bunch of guys.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:48 pm**

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:50 pm**

Christ on a Bike.

@Harkius: Okay, let's play it your way. What act of supplication is the Gutter capable of that would 'Salve the wounds?

I think this would be better as an everyone question.

@Shalako: Forgiveness is very relevant here. Trust me on this one.

Oh I'm sorry.

I must have missed when you were shit on for months and realized that sometimes you just have to be the bigger person ; life is unfair and complaining about a problem you can't fix is useless.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:54 pm**

Hello Galspanic.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 pm**

I'm clearly willing to be patient and calm, but if you walk in here issuing orders and blowfishing online like that means anything, frankly you can go fuck yourself.

What timeline are you on Kijin?

Pen asked The Guardian a question.

Well, Talore was here and left, I can only assume he's unwilling to accept his own awesomeness... The Guardian? Care to take a crack at it?

The Guardian posted.

[quote="The Guardian » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:20 pm&
quot;]Care to rephrase what you want me to respond to? I don't quite understand what you are asking...[/quote]

Then this happened

Well, let's see.
1. The Gutter was originally banned because drama.
2. The time of drama is over.
3. Why keep the Gutter banned?

Well, let's see.
1. The Gutter was originally banned because drama.
2. The time of drama is over.
3. Why keep the Gutter banned?
I don't know. It has never been the policy
to randomly unban people when the feeling is that there were 'justly' banned. Constantly ripping on the staff here probably isn't helping, but only creating a very negative vision of what salvation would be like if you were unbanned. Just my theory on it though, I wouldn't begrudge most of you coming back.

Well, let's see.
1. The Gutter was originally banned because drama.
2. The time of drama is over.
3. Why keep the Gutter banned?
I don't know. It has
never been the policy to randomly unban people when the feeling is that there were 'justly' banned. Constantly ripping on the staff here probably isn't helping, but only creating a very negative vision of what salvation would be like if you were unbanned. Just my theory on it though, I wouldn't begrudge most of you coming back.
It'd probably help if you start pre-emptively banning people you see ripping on the staff on other sites too. That would improve morale.

TIK talks about how he wouldn't mind us coming back and then NoHomers flames him.

He's not coming into this with his gun drawn. He's going into a bar he knows hates his gang to sit down and talk a little and getting shot in the back.

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 pm**

A wild sene has appeared. Anyone has quick ball?

Posted: **Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:59 pm**

Ah missed stuff.

I'm an Assface Kijin.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:06 am**

Serious question scumbag, while I agree that some of the staff messed up last year (yes last year, not now, now is a lot better over there.) and I agree with you and Brandons way of moderating the WCT. Were are you getting the idea that "mods are corrupt " ?

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:06 am**

[quote="
I think you are wrong. I am not trying to be an authority figure, and I can only assume you think because I wear a bolded tag, I believe that. I apologize if my actions may have not shown what I meant, or implied otherwise. I just wasn't in the mood to deal with someone throwing grenades, and I was annoyed that no one seemed to stopped him. To me, that felt like I was dealing with an entire hive mind, not a single person (I didn't look at his history like Shalako did, so I should have known better).

The Gutter has never been a hivemind.

A better analogy would be that MTGS is The Roman Empire and MTGC is The Gauls. MTGS is far more of a hivemind and Gutter needs events to be prodded in a direction.

One of those events
was the bannings that lead to the equivalent of the Sacking of Rome because Rome didn't leave the Gauls alone even though they weren't bothering them.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:08 am**

You know the Gauls have a roomful of captive loot and women and they will burn it all to the ground and you fuck with them anyways.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:08 am**

...probably better not to ask for forgiveness and say, "I want to burn down your population" at the same time...

That's really common in negotiations

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:13 am**

You know the Gauls have a roomful of captive loot and women and they will burn it all to the ground and you fuck with them anyways.

Lolwut?
What weapons do you have, Shalako?

@Harkius, Shalako: I'm talking about the staff being the forgivers here. It disturbs me they're still wary of these guys, like they couldn't take appropriate action if need be; hence my attempt to get TheGuardian (and Talore, but that's beside the point) to open up... once staff sees that the Gutter has absolutely no power there's no reason to keep them locked away.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:14 am**

That was the Curse deal in the analogy.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:15 am**

You know the Gauls have a roomful of captive loot and women and they will burn it all to the ground and you fuck with them anyways.
Lolwut?
What weapons do you have, Shalako?

@Harkius, Shalako: I'm talking about the staff being the forgivers here. It disturbs me they're still wary of these guys, like they couldn't take appropriate action if need be; hence my attempt to get TheGuardian (and Talore, but that's beside the point) to open up... once staff sees that the Gutter has absolutely no power there's no reason to keep them locked away.[/quote:
198s5co4]
They hate us and think we ruin their site seems like a pretty good reason to keep us locked away.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:18 am**

That was the Curse deal in the analogy.

Lolwut?

That was suicide, not an act of conflagration.

@your later point: a central one, to be sure. What is your response to your allegation?

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:21 am**

@Harkius: Ah, but do you think that things can ever be the way they want for staff?

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:22 am**

Serious question scumbag, while I agree that some of the staff messed up last year (yes last year, not now, now is a lot better over there.) and I agree with you and Brandons way of moderating the WCT. Were are you getting the idea that "mods are corrupt " ?

Aside from the enormous sweeping drama problems that you apparently know about but aren't good enough examples to satisfy you (?), there are also minor flashes of corruption such as:

Implementing a thanks system and then telling users when they are being sincere, when not, and punishing them if the user's thanks has not been deemed genuine.

Refusing to let people nominate who they want for awards even when the category is appropriate, in the offchance the staff does not
find the nomination sincere enough, despite the subjective nature of the entire thing and the fact that humor plays a part in it for some people.

Telling MTGC to register an account on MTGS to come and talk and then banning the account immediately after an owner of the site creates it.

Building an invincible CI barrier around Teia where you cannot air your grievances about WCT/RLA without getting literally infracted if what you are saying is not what they want to be said.

Deleting damning posts and evidence.

Asking owners of other MTG websites for private information on users who may be registered at MTGS, so they can internet stalk them. Multiple owners can vouch for this creepy behavior.

I'm watching football, but I can keep going if you want.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:26 am**

ooh, how's the game going? I'm at work.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:27 am**

That was the Curse deal in the analogy.
Lolwut?

That was suicide, not an act of conflagration.

Naw. We had stuff they wanted us to do(keep a secret/not burn a roomful of loot) and decided to screw with us anyways. It's the dog bowl analogy again.

@your later point: a central one, to be sure. What is your response to your allegation?

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:27 am**

Questions that shouldn't matter to you if you want to go back to MtG Salvation:

"Why'd you fuck with us when we could fuck you back?"
"Why'd you assholes do this?"
"Why'd you take so goddamn long to fix it?"
"Why'd you treat us like RHSC?"
"Why are you guys such dicks?"
"Do you not understand that you were wrong?"

On some level, each of you needs to decide which you care about.

Option A:
Holding a grudge and acting like butthurt children.

Option B:
Maybe someday getting unbanned from MtG Salvation.

There's no Entwine on this, I don't think.

As far as the staff being the ones to forgive, you might as well let that go. If they do, they do. If they don't,
there's nothing to be done about it. If you want to go back, you're going to have to accept that you will be doing it on their terms. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying that it's fair. I'm not saying that it's the way that it should be. I'm saying, "That's the way that it is. Not accepting that won't really accomplish jack shit; it will merely prolong the inevitable." You don't have to listen to me, but I don't have a dog in this fight. If you want to go back, check the attitude at the door, and try to understand that things will never be the way that you want.

Or those of us who want to go back will try to get back, and we'll also keep talking here because it's an interesting and amusing conversation. It doesn't always have to be black/white life/death you know.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:30 am**

@Harkius: Ah, but do you think that things can ever be the way they want for staff?
For many staff members, they already are.

For others, this kind of nonsense needs to stop.

For others still, it's not that important.

So, the answer would be yes. But the people here are going to have to be the ones to make a change.

21-21 at the half

Dammit! That sounds like one to watch, too.

You think the staff are incapable of having changes of heart?

@Shalako: Then you're accusing the staff of what, exactly? Cyberbullying?

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:32 am**

William Henry Pratt, better known by his stage name Boris Karloff, was an English actor. Karloff is best remembered for his roles in horror films and his portrayal of Frankenstein's monster in Frankenstein

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:35 am**

Serious question scumbag, while I agree that some of the staff messed up last year (yes last year, not now, now is a lot better over there.) and I agree with you and Brandons way of moderating the WCT. Were are you getting the idea that "mods are corrupt " ?

I stand by my assessment that the staff is morally corrupt for these simple facts:

1) We were lied about the original shutdown of the Gutter (it was pinned by rianalnn on the gutter flaming a lurker -m000se- without prior provocation, leading him to ask foor his MTGS account deletion, when proof has been given that he outright flamed several gutter regulars and hence was unceremonially booted.

2) We were lied for months during the bogus gutter-
staff compromise discussions while people were waiting for Curse to give their opinion

3) the guttermod team was continuously harassed by the staff during this whole time (see the most creative suyspension/banning vote taking place in the Razzies subforums)

4) When some senior staff misunderstood that Curse wanted the Gutter gone but didn't wanted to be associated to this, some higher-ups took it into themselves to bait the guttermods and several regular gutter members into being banned (as leaked to me by a global/admin, again see the razzies thread), hence effectively turning the Gutter into a wasteland.

I would have never been capable of ddoing 1), 2), 3), 4) or 5) in good moral conscience and still be capable to look myself in the mirror in the morning, which is why I am calling whoever was responsible for 1-5 to be morally corrupt (note that I cannot give exact names, I lack some info to tie the remaining knots.

Also, this whole discussion with staff members like Sene borders on the
pathetic side because we are standing with this kind of message at this juncture:

"Yeah we may or may not have messed up (no according to Sene) but if you guys stop being mad because we messed up and apologise for being mad, maybe we will consider having some leniency on you guys"

which is totally delusional because the message should reasonably be

"OK sorry we messed up things, and sorry this meant you guys stayed unrightfully banned for months. We just reversed these decisions, our apologies. Btw, standard rules still apply and people who flame and disrupt the site are still being infracted, but I'm sure you guys will behave well now you're back, but still keep that in mind while you accept this olive branch, oh and welcome back"

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:37 am**

@Shalako: Rebuttal: Beware, for I am fearless, and therefore powerful.

Edit- Really, really good analogy, though.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:44 am**

Furthermore Harkius I expect to be unbanned regardless of what I say in this thread, because I was banned for an oversight and expect the iridium to do the right thing. Neither want nor need an apology, nor do I really hold any ill-will towards them despite all of this -- this website would not exist otherwise so I thank them in a small way for being so backwards -- although I will continue being my vocal self, such as championing that Teia needs to be removed from WCT in order for the last drama to lift off that website and moving it into a peaceful Curse Era. I'm not going to pull any punches on this website when I talk about things. People like Sene, Boubs, etc. are all good people in my book, and they will recognize that me answering peoples questions and engaging their bullshit does not automatically classify me as an enemy of the state. I'm involved, I cannot help that I am involved, and I have a desk-job and an iPhone
and choose to pass my time how I wish. Me posting is as sure as the day is bright.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:04 am**

all we have violated is a bunch of illegitimate bans.

Their sanctions are invalid

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:04 am**

Thing is...you've all (allegedly) violated the ban evasion rules so many times that unbanning one of you migh as well be unbanning all of you

I haven't.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:05 am**

And we all should be unbanned anyways, which is what we thought Boubs was trying to figure out.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:03 am**

Mmm. A lot of the stuff you've posted here directed at the gutter here sounds quite similar to things I've posted at the staff in the inbox, Harkius.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:01 am**

Good fences make good neighbors.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:48 am**

and whether I agree with you or not, Teia is apparenntly a sacred calf to the staff for whatever reason. (Probably in part becuase of who's gone after her.) it will only result in more ugliness.

ALLEGEDLY!!!

At first I thought it said scared... then I noticed sacred. They should never base a judgement of many on one sacred calf that is more guilty of wrong doing then the ones they accuse of the wrong doing.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:09 am**

The more I talk to them, the more it sounds like they're really serious about letting you guys back, if you didn't seem so much on edge.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:13 am**

Define on edge.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:32 am**

An Olive branch so we know we aren't getting screwed again would be nice and would erode the Jaded Edge likely.

Dies to Removal

Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)