[Primer] Jund Monsters

[Valdarith]

Bow of Nylea is another card to keep in mind vs Burn. It comes down earlier than Primeval Bounty and isn't terrible against mono black (gives your dudes deathtouch so you don't care about Demon).

[Pedros]

Yeah I am playing both in sb.

[magicdownunder]

Why are you scared of Burn? Just toss in your extra discard cards like (RR) + Enchantment hate like (Golgari Charm) and you should be set.

Bow is nice I guess for Gr, but in Jund you have so much better answers which can deal with a wider range of MUs.

[Valdarith]

I'm giving options on top of RR. Obviously RR is coming in vs burn as I noted earlier.

[Pedros]

Hard to decide which control hosers should be run.

Jund gives you:

Sire of Insanity
Ruric Thar
Rakdos's Return

Currently I run 1/1/2 split of them.

[Valdarith]

That's what I'm doing, Pedros. Gives me a lot of threat diversity. I also run a single Chandra in the side on top of my maindeck singleton.

I should probably post my updated list.

[Pedros]

I also run additional Chandra and Xenagos to compelement my post board 8 planeswalkers.

Alsp playgin with Putrefy's in md and sb and they are awsome as catch all instant speed removal to complement dreadbores.

Dont really get why decks like ths run abrupt decays in sb.

[Valdarith]

Abrupt Decay is a nice, flexible spell because you can bring it in against control to nab Detention Sphere, Pithing Needle, or Blind Obedience, vs aggro to kill a lot of things, and vs Hexproof to kill pretty much all of their enchantments. I highly recommend two in the 75.

My current list:

[deck]
Creatures (25)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (12)
3 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Domri Rade
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
5 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Rakdos's Return
[/deck]

Can't find a slot
for the second Xenagos, the Reveler in the sideboard. Only logical cut is Rakdos's Return since it shares a slot for the control matchup but I like RR for the mirror when I'm on the play.

[Pedros]

I played somehow different list, with 3 rampagerd, 2 polukranoses and 2 reapers as a creatures for my turn 4. We would need to think what combination of those is the best.

[Valdarith]

For my meta, Reaper and Polukranos only are best. Everyone and their mother is playing GR and mono red and 4x Reaper lines up very well against that kind of field. In an open meta I think your suggestion is fine.

[Pedros]

Ok so what are THE staples (or should it be A? ) of this deck.

Mana accel:
4 Mystics
4 Caryatids

Card Advantage:
4 Domris
4 Coursers

Evasive big beaters:
4 Dragons

Around 23 lands.

Most lists also run small beaters relevant late game (Scavenging Ooze, Boon Satyr are those type of cards)

I would want to build deck for current metagame. So hearing your thoughts for our options in slot 4, removal suite and sb.

[Aodh]

I don't like 4 Domri Rade in a 25-creature list, and Xenagos, the Reveler is way more powerful against MBD and on the same power level as Domri against UW(x).

[Pedros]

I used domri as a miniature fight club almots every time. He was awsome in that.

[LP, of the Fires]

Same Pedros. Plus Domri+courser is broken and the reason to play the deck.

Regarding the 4 drops, I like what Reid Duke said.

If you draw one 4, you want it to be either reaper of polukranos. If you draw 2, you want one of them to be a rampager. that and ghor-clan is great in the mirror for ending the game before someone overloads a mortars.

[Valdarith]

Domri has performed consistently in GR/Jund Monsters as a four-of in 25-creature list. His inclusion is a foregone conclusion at this point with Courser in the list.

Domri + Reaper is just silly. You can take down almost anything. I did it to a couple of my opponents at the PTQ and their frustration was evident.

I like Scavenging Ooze in the Jund lists because you run a lot more removal in the 75 than GR, so a late Ooze is much better than usual. With burn being a thing now, that's even more incentive to run him.

For removal, I like a 3/3 split of Dreadbore and Mortars in the main. Mortars can be a great card but is underwhelming vs mono black and practically dead vs UWx, so I move the fourth to the sideboard (or don't play it at all) to make room for the third Dreadbore.

Sideboard is a bit more tricky with this deck because you want to bring in good cards but you risk going overboard and diluting your game plan.
What I think are auto-includes:

1 Sire of Insanity
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Goglari Charm
2 Ultimate Price

What to fill with the rest is dependent on your maindeck. Some are starting to put 1-2 Abrupt Decay in the main which I think is fine. It's not a dead card in any matchup, but I think including it pushes you away from aggression and more toward a classical Jund Midrange deck like Reid Duke was playing in his latest video series.

[LP, of the Fires]

For people that didn't read the article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

[Pedros]

Right now as my removal suite in md I use:

2 Dreadbores
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Putrefy

last removal slot is either Flesh // Blood or Rakdos's Return. Currently I use Flesh // Blood and 2 Return's in sb, however can see playing 1 Return MD (same as Reid Duke) and more removal in sb.

Why Putrefy over Ultimate Price? Couse I dont like having completely dead removals in game 1. Ultimate Price cant kill mutavault, reaper of the wilds, boros reckoner, Rampager and lotleth troll from more notable cards. Plus having md out for more played weapons such as whip or hammer is important. Having instant spead catch all removal that doesnt care about regeneration is sth I can pay 1 more. I really didnt like Ultimate Price in any deck I played, and forced different type of removal. This deck generates tons of mana, so paying 1 more usually doesnt matter.

What I like in Flesh//Blood that it can be used as finisher or conditional
removal spell. Going with black I can use either or both side of it, it gives you additional options that arent dead vs control.

Rakdos's return is awsome vs some decks, quite bad vs others, thats why right now I am with Flesh // Blood.

So my removal suite I am going to use in md is:

2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbores
1 Putrefy
1 Flesh // Blood.

As for a sb Currently auto included for me are:

Sire of Insanity / Ruric Thar (dunno if we need both of them, but 1 of them is certainly 100%)
1 Chandra (additional to 1 in md for black and UW Control). Another card awsome with courser.
2 Golgari Charm (awsome vs UW control)

Similar to before, I dont really see why playing ultimate price over additional dreadbores or putrefy's. If you want another catch all removal go with dreadbore / putrefy depends if you want instant speed or not.

Those are my 2 cents, however cant understand why ultimate price in deck that have red (dreadbore) AND green (putrefy, abrupt decay) is forced so much.

nAnother cards to consider are Bow and Primeval Bounty as very cool 1 offs for sb, both are quite good vs any grindy matchups plus they generate life (ever got 4 life from 1 life? Awsome experience).

Other than that do we want to play thoughtseizes in sb? Reid Duke was playing 2 in the sb.

How do you like vraska? Planeswalker that is usually 2 vindicates seems awsome.

[LP, of the Fires]

The big appeal of this deck is the customization options available and the reason why I'd consider playing it. Time for detes.

Vraska is amazing and I like 1 in the 75, not sure main or side.

Regarding RR vs. Flesh/blood, I like RR more as it's never dead and good against almost every matchup.

Ultimate price is necessary to have in the 75 as another answer to master of waves I'd think. Yeah, polukranos does it, but PolyK is slow and can get blown out by rapid hybridization. Price does the deed cleanly.

My favorite tweak of Reid's was putting thoughtseize in the board and 2 is the perfect number. If my opponent can have perfect information, I want it too! It creates this weird game where in the late game, if you thoughtseize them and have had an active courser for a while, your both playing with your hands face up.

Xenagos the planeswalker is awesome because he's so good vs. control/mbc. He's pretty
underwhelming vs. burn, but that's why you have a sideboard.

[Valdarith]

Agreed that the 2x Thoughtseize in the board is nice. I wish I could find room in my deck for them. I'd want at least 3 in the 75.

[Pedros]

Putrefy also is answer to Master of the Waves.

[Valdarith]

It is, but 2 mana vs 3 is huge in a deck with 12 shocklands and 5-6 scrylands. You'll often want the effect earlier against a lot of decks. Sure, there are things it cant hit, but that area is covered by Abrupt Decay and Dreadbore.

[Valdarith]

Now that Blind Obedience is a thing and Esper runs black removal it may be time to say goodbye to Mistcutter Hydra. It's decent against mono blue but there are other things we can run in that matchup. Could it be that those are the slots for Thoughtseize?

[Pedros]

I dont think obedience is as good vs us as vs RB and burn, we have answer to it in decay / golgari charm. However combination of black removal and blind obedience makes hydra worse. However isnt the point to overload their black removal? Dragon and Hydra makes so they have kill them instant speed.

Also does everyone moved to esper? Now that burn become a real thing and being slower and taking more damage from manabase matters a lot?

How many creatures we should run to make domris +1 really good? I would love to go to somehow bigger jund version without mystics, with every other creature that is good (I hate mystics as they make mana strange with so many scry lands that are awsome with chandra, domri and courser).

This List made 3-1 in a daily:

[deck]4 Blood Crypt
2 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malice
24 lands

4
Courser of Kruphix
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Read the Bones
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Xenagos, the Reveler

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Slaughter Games
2 Ultimate Price
1 Xenagos, the Reveler

[/deck]

It is more similar to Reid Dukes Jund control than to monsters, however you see some interesting options: no polukranoses (all 4 reapers), no elves and no domris. MD Discards, more md planeswalkers and read the bones.

[Pedros]

Probably wrong thread but posting it here.

Talking about Junk Midrange by Reid Duke:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/cov ... ith_r.html

I am intrigued how to sb with this deck. Can you help us out? Especially Val as you have some experience.

vs Burn:

-1 Vraska, -1 Connections, -1 Read the Bones, -2 Hero's Downfall / Abrupt Decay
+3 Duress, +2 Sin Colector

Here I think playing 9 discrards spells is quote good (even thoughtseize as often you trade 2 life for 4). Possible leaving read the bones as 1 is ok sometimes, then cutting more spot removal. Dont know which is worse (downfall is harder to cast but can kill mutavault and spark trooper)

I don't think Burn will be boarding in creatures against you so'll
recommend

Out: 2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, 1 Vraska the Unseen, 1 Underworld Connections, 1 Read the Bones, 1 Hero's Downfall

in: 1 Golgari Charm, 3 Duress, 2 Sin Collector

Hitting Chains is quite important for your clock, and i agree you need some HDF for spark trooper

vs B/x Devo

+1 Dark Betrayal, +3 Duress, +3 Underworld connection, +2 Sin Collector
-4 Caryatid

I completely dont know what to sb out here other than caryatid, as he has access to no lifebane zombies. Cutting any creatures seems hard as only 14 non caryatid ones can attack.

Ghost Dads is quite bad in this MU as well, so they're worth cutting I like the SB plan here .

vs Esper Control

-4 Caryatid, some amount of abrupt decay / hero's downfall, but dont know how many as they are a way to kill planeswalkers and spheres. Another cuts would be
scavenging ooze and courser of krupnix, probably ooze.
+3 Mistcutter hydra, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Sin Collector, +3 Underworld, +1 Golgari Charm, +3 Duress

This one is tough, -4 Caryatid, -4 Abrupt Decay, -4 Courser of Kruphix and -1 Scavenging Ooze (maybe?) I like Ooze + Angel here.

vs Monsters
+1 Needle (planeswalkers), +1 Doom Blade
-2 Abrupt decay (not enough targets)

Agreed

vs Mono U
+3 Hydra, +1 Doom blade, +1 Golgari Charm (domestication, det sphere, removal for master)
-1 Connection, -1 Read the Bones, -3 some creatures (possible 2 oozes and 1 courser?)

Sb is really hard with this deck as you dont want to sb almost any creature as you have to win somehow.

Is Obzedat, Ghost Council good here? Maybe him and 1x Scavenging Ooze

- - - - - - - -

I'm not sure I gave you any good advice or not this SB'ing for Junk is HARD!![/quote:
3hapxgii]

MDU and Mine sb discussion.

[magicdownunder]

I am intrigued how to sb with this deck. Can you help us out? Especially Val as you have some experience.

I'll also love to hear your input Val (or anyone else) since I don't think i'm giving Pedro justice with my suggestions (I have 0 experience with monster builds).

[Pedros]

I just saw replays of Duke match vs Bw devotion.

He boards in golgari charms... and keeps his caryatids... Didnt see a single duress or sin collector...

[magicdownunder]

FOLLOW Duke's plan, I kinda understand cutting Duress and Sin since they'll mainly try and kill you with BBV so those 5 cards arn't doing anything for you.

Caryatids is DF protection + ramp, charm hits connection, Sin, LBZ and Whip

[Valdarith]

I'll have to reply when I'm on my desktop which could be awhile. I assume the list is from the Invitational because the link is broken.

[Tyrael]

Chris Vanmeter came in 4th today in SCG's standard open tournament with this list:

[deck] Jund Monsters[/deck]

Interestingly, he was running zero Reapers

[enmitee]

Going to add a little to this topic. Recently been playing this deck a lot and have been coming across the Mirror or the G/R variant. Man, the mirror matches are more grindy than the control match up. Anyway, I'm planning to change a few creatures for the mirror and the MonoB and B/W midrange match ups. I'm really not liking Polukranos, he hasn't really wow'd me in any of my match ups. Thinking of dropping 2 Polukranos for 2 Reapers. (2 Polukranos, 4 Reapers) and changing the 2 SBDs for 2 Underworld cerberus (2/2 split). The Cerberus seems really powerful in the mirror match up, and being able to fight pretty much anything the G/R/mirror drops is a bonus and can't be blocked by less than 3 creatures giving it a pseudo evasion.

[Valdarith]

Even though Reid's Junk Midrange deck is both in the wrong colors AND not a Monsters deck, I do think it's important to touch on sideboard strategy as requested by Pedros. Here is Reid's list:

[deck]
Creatures (18)
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Scavenging Ooze
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council

Spells (17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Read the Bones
1 Underworld Connections
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Vraska, the Unseen

Lands (25)
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Godless Shrine

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Sin Collector
3 Underworld Connections
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Doom Blade
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Golgari Charm
[/deck]

Being in the blind on Reid's suggested postboard strategy, let's give our best guess. I have avoided
reading Pedros's and MDU's commentary so we can compare notes afterward.

vs Burn: -4 Hero's Downfall, -1 Read the Bones, -1 Underworld Connections, -1 Vraska, the Unseen, +3 Duress, +2 Sin Collector, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Mistcutter Hydra.

If they are on the Young Pyromancer plan, Golgari Charm comes in. Pithing Needle names Mutavault. Thoughtseize stays in despite it feeling gross. We could argue that some should be cut for more Mistcutter Hydra, which is decent later in the game. Hero's Downfall is the obvious card to bring out, as it's terrible against everything but Mutavault which our creatures easily block.

vs Black devotion: -1 Read the Bones, -1 Polukranos, World Eater, -1 Sylvan Caryatid, -1 Abrupt Decay, +3 Underworld Connections, +1 Dark Betrayal

Having access to four Underworld Connections is huge. Polukranos is suboptimal against terrors and Desecration Demon. No need for Read the Bones when playing four UC. Cut one Sylvan Caryatid since it is low impact but you definitely want
three due to the mana requirements of the deck. One Abrupt Decay comes out for one Dark Betrayal.

vs Esper control: -2 Polukranos, World Eater, -4 Sylvan Caryatid, -4 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Hero's Downfall, +3 Duress, +2 Sin Collector, +3 Underworld Connections, +3 Mistcutter Hydra, +1 Golgari Charm

Polukranos is bad vs control. Caryatid is bad vs control even though it helps the mana. Ooze is REALLY bad since we run less than 20 creatures and Esper runs 0-4 postboard. Cut one Decay since we are bringing in Golgari Charm. Cut one Hero's Downfall since we're bringing in Duress and Mistcutter Hydra. To be honest I'm not a fan of this deck's position against Esper. I think Jund Monsters does a much better job of combatting it, especially postboard.

vs GR/Jund Monsters: -2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Doom Blade, +1 Pithing Needle.

Abrupt Decay still hits Domri, Courser, and Ooze so it's worth keeping a couple in the deck.

vs Mono blue: -1 Read the Bones, -4 Scavenging Ooze, +3 Mistcutter
Hydra, +1 Doom Blade, +1 Golgari Charm

Board out Ooze to mitigate postboard Domestication, bringing in Mistcutter Hydra in its place. Read the Bones is a little too slow for my taste in this match. Bring in Doom Blade for the extra terror. Golgari Charm deals with Master of Waves, Bident of Thassa, or Domestication.

[Purp]

I played right belong side Reid this past weekend in the Invi, he had Golgari charm and Doom blade vs burn not needle and hydra. I actually watched him Regen his Ooze to stop searing blood dmg. His opponent was so salty.

[Valdarith]

I don't like Doom Blade in the matchup, but I do like Golgari Charm.

[LP, of the Fires]

While removal is bad, you still want it because the whole goal is to soak up damage. Needles not really where you want to be I don't think since it's mostly a do nothing.

We're not esper here. Courser of Kruphix can block.

[Valdarith]

I can see an argument for Doom Blade over Pithing Needle considering it takes care of Mutavault as well as Ash Zealot.

[Pedros]

Spark Trooper is why doom blade is important