Dies to Removal

This deck has been putting up some results over the past couple of weeks, including two different builds in the top 8 of the Pro Tour. I've been keeping an eye on this archetype since it first saw play in the SCG Open, tweaking a decklist of my own in anticipation of playing it in an IQ in two weeks.

For reference, here are the two PT decklists:

[deck]3rd place, Pierre Mondon[/deck]

[deck]5th place, Yuuki Ichikawa[/deck]

I happen to think Yuuki has the better build here. I like Thoughtseize in the main and can't imagine not having it in the 60. I'd personally run at least three but perhaps he's making a concession to the number of aggro decks he
expected (and there were a lot at the PT). I also really like Nissa since she works well with Courser. I'm not sure if Urborg is necessary here since there are times where it will help our opponent a lot more than it helps us. I'm also uncertain if the Elvish Mystics are necessary. I feel like running 25 lands is better than running dorks since it makes Courser and Nissa better plus you get to run more scry lands. I do like being able to cast a walker on turn three though.

Here is what I'm working on right now.

[deck=Valdarith's Jund Walkers]
Creatures (11)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pack Rat
4 Courser of Kruphix

Spells (24)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Putrefy
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Rakdos's Return
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator

Lands (25)
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple of Malady
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
2
Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Malice
2 Mutavault
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Magma Spray
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
2 Underworld Connections
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos's Return
[/deck]

Comments/critique?

Seems like mystic is a card you want.... proof being the two decks that top 8. Turn 3 Xenagos is the nuts.

I can't believe how much of an upgrade this is over the jund monsters deck

extremely resilient, tons of win cons, great removal and overall utility

Magma Spray is the nuts vs so many decks.

What changed to make this deck viable? Llanowar Wastes? Pierre Mondon wasn't even playing Garruk and Nissa. It's weird how all the cards have been legal, then this deck pops up in the last few months. Not complaining, Planeswalkers are sweet!

Having another untapped source in Wastes is definitely huge. It makes the mana better too. It allows you to skew the deck more toward black so you get more flexible answers like Abrupt Decay and Hero's Downfall maindeck.

I'm undecided on Mystic. On one hand it's nice to have a couple extra mana dorks but it also dilutes the power of the deck. The only three drop I really want to be casting on turn two is Courser, but Mystic also allows you to cast Decay or Mortars on turn two while playing a scryland.

I don't think Scooze fits with your G1 plan of either ramping into PWs or casting a million removal spells.

Neither does packrat, especially without card draw to back it up. Game 1 with walkers you're really trying to slam a bunch of card advantage engines on the board that a lot of decks have a problem answering effectively even if they're killing each walker as they come. I'm not sure 3 Chandra is really where you want to be either. It's a midgame card. I like 25 lands though, particularly if you're trying a singleton Garruk.

Pack Rat is out for a second Nissa. Just forgot to update the list. I really liked Mondon's 3 Chandra and it seemed to work well for him. Yuuki had Ooze in his board and it seemed to do work when he brought it in vs aggro decks. It's basically just another finisher that they have to answer that can also be played t2 for an early trade. Kind of a liability vs control though.

I don't mind Ooze in the board...

Yeah, ooze in the board is fine. In the main, it's got a high potential of being a bear.

I was thinking about Cleansing Control and how even the decks with heavy discard had problems beating the deck. The big problem was a topdecked Revelation. I have Slaughter Games to address this problem but it's worth noting that Sire of Insanity is better than Rakdos's Return in this matchup. I may go 1/1 here.

My list as it stands...

[deck]
4 elvish mystic
4 sylvan caryatid
4 courser of kruphix

3 thoughtseize
1 abrupt decay
2 golgari charm
2 dreadbore
3 mizzium mortars
1 putrefy
1 hero's downfall
1 rakdos's return
3 chandra, pyromaster
3 xenagos, the reveler
2 nissa, worldwaker
1 vraska, the unseen
1 garruk, apex predator

3 overgrown tomb
4 llanowar wastes
3 temple of malady
3 temple of abandon
4 stomping ground
1 blood crypt
3 temple of malice
1 forest
2 mutavault

Sideboard ( 15 )
1 thoughtseize
1 duress
3 magma spray
2 scavenging ooze
1 mizzium mortars
1 abrupt decay
1 golgari charm
1 hero's downfall
2 slaughter games
2 rakdos's return
[/deck]

Shoved in Mystics and found them to be good, but playtesting has revealed that the deck has similar issues to Jund Monsters as far
as drawing the wrong half of your deck. It's not quite as bad since you're playing a more controlling list but it's worth noting. I tested against Brave Naya tonight and split our 8 games despite my rustiness from not playing in awhile. I want a third Nissa. I'd cut Garruk but I expect a lot of midrange and Walkers at the IQ this Sunday and he's just a concession to that. Three Chandra has felt good but I could see going down to two since she competes with Xenagos at the four slot.

I keep wanting to go more aggressive with the decklist though. It must be the Kibler in me, but while playing tonight I wondered if a GR variant would be feasable.

[deck]
4 elvish mystic
4 sylvan caryatid
3 scavenging ooze
4 courser of kruphix
3 polukranos
4 stormbreath dragon
1 soul of shandalar

4 mizzium mortars
1 clan defiance
2 chandra, pyromaster
3 xenagos, the reveler
3 nissa, worldwaker

3 mutavault
4 temple of abandon
4 stomping ground
2 mana confluence
8 forest
3 mountain
[/deck]

We
lose the flexibilty of all the black spells, but get a more consistent deck with a much more powerful Nissa. Ultimate on Nissa is now a real thing, and we can reliably use her to ramp out big spells and abilities like Clan Defiance, PolyK, Stormbreath Dragon, and Soul of Shandalar.

[deck]
Creatures (12)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix

Spells (24)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Rakdos's Return

Lands (24)
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Malice
1 Forest
2 Mutavault

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Magma Spray
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 MIzzium Mortars
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ultimate Price
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos's Return
[/deck]

After getting a lot of games in with the deck this week, I think this is within a couple of cards of what I'll be taking to the IQ Sunday. I really just have to make sure the mana
base is good. During testing I felt like I should go down a scryland for an untapped source so I moved a Temple of Malice out for a Blood Crypt, putting me at eight scrylands. As it stands I may find myself wanting one more red source, so I may swap a Temple of Malady for a Temple of Abandon. The only other change I can forsee is swapping the Garruk for a fourth Xenagos since I found myself boarding the former out quite a bit this week, but that could just be because I was playing so many aggressive decks. He seems very good in the mirror and did pretty well against my Cleansing Control opponent in game one, but against decks like BW midrange and BG devotion I fear he might be a liability since those decks will be bringing in so much discard postboard.

I thought about Drown in Sorrow but I think Golgari Charm takes care of the decks where I really want that effect (Rabble Red). Drown doesn't do a lot against GW aggro since they play so many x/3s or greater alongside Voice, and it's a little too slow
against Brave Naya in my opinion. I think it's better to attack the smaller aggro decks with early disruption like Magma Spray, which also happens to be good against Burn.

Quick sideboard guide (mainly for my reference):

Burn
Out: 1 Elvish Mystic, 3 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Dreadbore, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Putrefy, 1 Hero's Downfall, 1 Vraska the Unseen, 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 4 Magma Spray, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Ultimate Price, 2 Rakdos's Return

Cleansing Control
Out: 3 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Putrefy, 1 Vraska the Unseen,
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Golgari Charm, 2 Slaughter Games, 2 Rakdos's Return

Jund Walkers
Out: 2 Elvish Mystic, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Putrefy
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Rakdos's Return

BW Midrange
Out: 1 Abrupt Decay, 2 Elvish Mystic, 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Ultimate Price, 1 Rakdos's Return

BG Rock
same

Rabble Red
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Rakdos's Return, 1 Garruk, Apex Predator, 1 Hero's Downfall, 1
Putrefy, 1 Vraska the Unseen, 2 Dreadbore
In: 4 Magma Spray, 1 Ultimate Price, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Scavenging Ooze

G/W aggro
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Rakdos's Return, 1 Garruk, Apex Predator, 1 Hero's Downfall, 1 Putrefy, 1 Chandra, Pyromaster
In: 4 Magma Spray, 1 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Scavenging Ooze

Brave Naya
same

Mono Blue
Out: 1 Rakdos's Return, 1 Garruk, Apex Predator, 1 Vraska the Unseen, 4 Elvish Mystic, 1 Xenagos, the Reveler
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 4 Magma Spray, 1 Ultimate Price, 1 Mizzium Mortars

Just a quick post on your request Val. I got 1st Thursday (25+ people) and FNM (42 people). Thursday I beat Mono Blue, Junk Midrange, BW Midrange, Mono Black aggro, and Naya Walkers. FNM I beat Rabble Red, Dega Midrange, Mono Blue, Brave Naya, GW Aggro, and Esper Control.

[deck]Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Vraska, The Unseen
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Xenagos, The Reveler

Spells
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Putrefy
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
1 Dreadbore
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Thoughtseize

24 Lands

Sideboard
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rakdos's Return
3 Slaughter Games
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ultimate Price
1 Doom Blade
2 Duress
[/deck]

First off, I wouldn't recommend my sideboard since it's made for my meta, which is all hyper aggressive aggro/green ramp/control with
very little anything else. Stormbreath and Anger were last minute inclusions that replaced Liliana and Ooze in the main and Magma Spray in the side. Overload Mortars was too slow sometimes against aggro and I needed something else for early boardwipe. Anger SAVED me in every aggro match up I had. As for Stormbreath, nearly half my matches were won with him along with Satyr tokens. Xenagos +1 helps me monstrosity earlier too.

I was lucky I didn't run into burn, while I was disappointed that I didn't run into green ramp when it's 25% of my meta.

You guys should play one pithing needle. Muta vault fucks with you hard.

Garruks a weird one. I'd likely prefer to board it since it's really slow and shines in certain matchups while being mostly awkward otherwise. I'd keep return in the board for similar reasons.

Mutavault is why I run maindeck Putrefy and Downfall and also why I run Magma Spray in the side. It's really not so bad when you start producing Satyr tokens and manlands or have a Mutavault of your own out. I tend to favor more proactive cards than Needle in this deck anyway.

Garruk is definitely the sore thumb of the deck. I expect a lot of midrange walker decks today which he does tons of work against, but he can be awkward game one against aggro.

TBuzz, what decks were you playing Anger against? I've thought about sweepers but my limited experience indicates that early interaction is what you really want. Your walkers will get you there after you stabilize, and you have Golgari Charm for the really fast decks like Rabble Red, mono black aggro, and white weenie/Brave Naya.

I also suggest Nissa. She's just insane.

Nissa is such a 4-of. She creates a subgame like Pack Rat, you kill the Nissa and lands or lose in 3 turns, tops.

Is the Mondon Nissa-less version still viable, or has the consensus become jam as many Nissa as possible? Do the two decks work from different philosophies and, if so, what are they?

I'm on the non-Nissa plan. Her forest untapping is useless here while making land creatures is bad in my meta. Green ramp can walk over 4/4s, aggro has a free turn to attack if you do it on turn 4/5, and control can board wipe.

As for Anger, it's for the increasing Voices and Fleecemace Lions I've been seeing in Naya in GW. It doesn't hurt that it hits nearly everything but FBW and Master in Mono Blue, while it kills all the mana dorks and draw engines in Green ramp. Golgari Charm does still help a lot though.

Came in 6th at the IQ, losing in the top 8 due to getting a bit unlucky against someone I beat in the swiss. Full report to follow when I get the chance.

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=250941#p250941:2ys2019a]TBuzzsaw » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:24 pm[/url:2ys2019a]":2ys2019a]I'm on the non-Nissa plan. Her forest untapping is useless here while making land creatures is bad in my meta. Green ramp can walk over 4/4s, aggro has a free turn to attack if you do it on turn 4/5, and control can board wipe.

As for Anger, it's for the increasing Voices and Fleecemace Lions I've been seeing in Naya in GW. It doesn't hurt that it hits nearly everything but FBW and Master in Mono Blue, while it kills all the mana dorks and draw engines in Green ramp. Golgari Charm does still help a lot though.[/quote:2ys2019a]

About the control thing: if they Verdict, you've just lost a land and can attack again with a 4/4 the next turn, if they Cleanse, you keep the land and keep up with the beats.

You're really handicapping yourself if you don't run Nissa. I've found the card to line up quite well against everything including green ramp decks. The only thing they have that can stonewall your 4/4s is PolyK. You just have to watch out for overloaded Mortars, but GRx mirrors have always been about who gets to overload a Mortars first so playing Nissa doesn't change that dynamic.

Nissa is at her best against control decks. You can land her on an empty board and they HAVE to answer her. Verdict the lands and she just makes another 4/4 with effective haste the next turn. Cleansing the Nissa and I'm still attacking with the 4/4s already in play. Verdict the lands when I have a Golgari Charm in hand and, well, you're dead son.

^

As I mentioned earlier, I made top 8 at a 40-man IQ, losing in the semis to the same person I 2-0d in the swiss in two very close (and unfortunate) losses.

For reference, my decklist:

[deck]
Creatures (12)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix

Spells (24)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Rakdos's Return

Lands (24)
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Malice
1 Forest
2 Mutavault

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Magma Spray
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 MIzzium Mortars
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ultimate Price
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos's Return
[/
deck]

Match 1 vs Brave Naya: He wins the die roll gets a bit of an awkward start with turn one scryland into turn two one drop, scryland while I'm sitting on a Golgari Charm, a couple more removal spells, and a Xenagos. He resolves a couple of Smiters which I remove, and I take over the game with Xenagos and a topdecked Nissa. I side in Magma Spray, Mortars, and Oozes and take out the less efficient removal spells, Thoughtseize, Return, and Garruk. Game two is a bit more uncomfortable as he pressures my life total with Soldier and Voice backed up by counters from Ajani while I have a Caryatid and Mystic in play. I deal with Ajani via Dreadbore, then play a Xenagos, make a token, and pass. He continues the offensive and I kill the Voice with blockers to set up my Scavenging Ooze the next turn. I play my Ooze, make a token, and pass because he's representing an EOT Wurm. He does so, then slams another Ajani, gives his Solider flying a double strike to kill my Xenagos, and holds the Wurm back to try to
save his Ajani. EOT I end up eating some dudes and making my Ooze very large while gaining a lot of life back, then Mortars his board and attack his Ajani. He sees the writing on the wall and concedes.

1-0

Match 2 vs Black Devotion: he ends up getting a game loss due to a deck reg error, so we move straight to game two with him on the play. I answer his turn two rat with a Mortars, and he plays a turn three Specter which I can't answer. I end up getting a Xenagos out and we're off to the races. He nabs a Dreadbore from the first Specter trigger, then a Rakdos's Return, so I'm on a mission to keep him off red mana. I get a Courser out and then a Chandra to really help things. He nabs a Llanowar Wastes and then a Caryatid while using Downfall on my Xenagos, then plays the Caryatid and passes. I attack with my Xenagos token, he blocks with Caryatid, then I Golgari Charm after combat to kill the Caryatid. Eventually he plays Desecration Demon which I've been holding a Putrefy for the entire time, and
I take over with the Courser + Chandra combo.

2-0

Match 3 vs GR devotion: I win game one fairly easily after getting out an early Xenagos and Nissa. Game two I have to mull to five but the game is very close. I end up punting when he Chords for a Stormbreath Dragon using an inactive Nylea to pay for it. I didn't catch this until the game was over and I would have been able to stabilize and win that game, but I recover in game three by being the first to get off his overloaded Mortars. There was an interesting decision I made in this game where I Thoughtseized turn two and saw Chord, Mortars, Nykthos, Forest, Mystic after he played a Forest on turn one. I chose to take Chord and hoped to dodge him getting three red sources and succeeded. I say this was interesting because I wasn't sure how many BTEs he was running (I never saw any the first two games) and playing one could have gotten him red from Nykthos, but as it turns out he was not running them.

3-0

Match 4 vs BW midrange: I win both games
in convincing fashion with pressure from Xenagos and Nissa backed by removal and Thoughtseize. There was a misplay I made in game one where I scryed Golgari Charm to the bottom and my opponent played Connections on turn three. I tell myself not to do that again because I know that's one of the defining cards of the matchup, but I win through it anyway.

4-0

Match 5 vs Burn: ID

4-0-1

Match 6 vs Black Devotion: opponent is in 4th and I'm in 1st. He wants to play it out. I draw the wrong half of my deck game one, seeing all four Caryatids and a slew of lands. Game two is a little more interesting despite my mull to six but he gets two Demons out and I could only answer one.

4-1-1

Top 8 vs BW Midrange: I have the 4th place seed and get a rematch against the BW player from match 4. Game one is extremely close with me getting a lot of 4/4s from Nissa, but he topdecks a Rat with two cards in hand and two Mutavaults on the board and overwhelms me as my Mortars comes one turn too late. Game two is
just a series of unfortunate breaks for me. I end up getting out Caryatid on two and he plays Rat on two. I Mortars the Rat, Thoughtseize, and see a hand with Sin Collector, two Demons, and two lands. I'm holding Putrefy, Rakdos's Return, and two lands, so I opt to take the Sin Collector, hoping to Putrefy one of the Demons and empty his hand with Rakdos's Return the following turn. He topdecks a Thoughtseize and nabs my Return for the ultimate in feelbads, and I draw a Mutavault for the turn, play it, and pass. Next turn he topdecks his second Sin Collector which I have to Putrefy in response. I get in for two with the Mutavault after topdecking Chandra and playing it. He plays his Demon and passes. I zero Chandra trying to find action but I never see it. He plays a second Demon (!) and I can't answer either of them.

Summary
Overall I was happy with my performance and felt like I played correctly in the final two games. That topdecked Thoughtseize followed by his second and last Sin Collector was
really unfortunate and I feel that was a very bad break for me, but oh well. Everyone gets runner-runnered sometimes.

If I had to change anything in the deck, I'd definitely take out Garruk for a third Chandra. As for the sideboard, I think three Rakdos's Return in the 75 may be overkill. Two is probably the right number. I'm not sure if 3 or 4 Magma Spray is correct, but I'm also not sure what other card I'd want in its place.

I'm just prejudice against elves.

I'm done with this deck now though. I've been playing something new every week since rotation is coming up. I liked it, but there's other decks I want to try out.