[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

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[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

Postby Link » Wed May 01, 2013 5:44 pm

To differentiate the archetype that is more traditional Mono R splash green from my sledgehammer variant.

What is R/g Gruul Sligh?
This archetype forgoes any late-game strategy or plan by going under the opponent as aggressively as possible. What green adds to the list is all-star Flinthoof Boar, GCR to trample through threats, and CA Rancor. We also get decent SB options by splashing green.. Tomoharu Saito's 18-list started this particular sligh variant which can have hyper aggressive starts with Burning-Tree Emissary.

Other great primers for similar archetype::
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=602
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=625

[size=150:
1ywzi8v8]The Creatures[/size]
1 Drops
Arbor Elf: This is not a ramp deck. Don't be tempted by turn 2 Domri's or Wolfir Avengers. Ramp deals with tempo, but on his own Arbor Elf doesn't scare anybody. We need threats.

[card]Avacyn's Pilgrim[/card]: What did I just tell you?

Foundry Street Denizen: This guy has some potential in TurboGruul, but his 1 toughness really holds him back here. We can't afford to be playing cards that trade with mana dorks in our game plan.

Legion Loyalist: This is like above, he's too niche. Great enabler, great with Rancor, but on his own? Another /1 toughness.

Rakdos Cackler: Now here's a solid fighter. A 2/2 for 1, this guy is solid. An near auto-include in every deck that has red. He is mainboard potential for Ragehammer, wears rancor well, and is
key in having speed pre-board. Post-board he might come out against midrange match-ups where we have bigger baddies to play.

Reckless Waif: Too many slots for not enough juice. Can ruin BTE chains by making us not want to play them, and has a /2 backside. We want to avoid playing things that die to pillar post board unless they are REALLY worth it. Plus we have a decent game against control already and don't want to dedicate too much SB for it.


Stromkirk Noble: See Rakdos Cackler. Definitely important threat to have people sweating G1. Might be taken out Post-board as he can't swing past Augurs, Healers, or a lot of fatties on the draw.

Stonewright: This card has done a lot of work for a lot of people. In MonoR, Rakhammer, this guy is the go-to late game mana sink. The problem I have with him is his /1 toughness, AND the fact that we need to run some number of Temple Gardens if we want Reckoner.
Temple Gardens don't tap for R, which can limit the amount of "sinking" this guy does. This is for sure a card up for debate and further testing.
2 Drops
Ash Zealot: I hope I don't have to spend too much time on this card. First strike with Rancor? Enough said. If you're playing less than 4, it better be because you went the Experiment red route and not that you underestimate this card.

Burning-Tree Emissary: Don't underestimate the power of Gruul shamans. THIS is our form of ramp: accelerated pressure. The 2/2 body isn't always relevant, but dropping this and a Boar, dropping this and a Domri, dropping this and a hellrider... Acting as 4 extra green sources to fix our mana so we can keep very aggressive hands... The list goes on. This card is definitely a staple.

Firefist Striker: Suffers the same as Legion Loyalist and Foundy does. Great
card... with others. With enough haste, LM, and Boars getting his battalion is easy. However he dies to souls and mana dorks, so he usually is sided out G2. Great enabler to go around Smiters and Thrags though (not so hot against resto).

Flinthoof Boar: The card no one heard about outside of limited before Stomping Ground. This guy signifies everything we want out of our build, he is Gruul to the core. 3/3 for 2? Yes please. HASTE 3/3 for 3? Staple.

Gore-house Chainwalker: Now here's a card. 3/2 ahead of its curve? However it doesn't hold a candle to our Flinthoof Boar, and there's rarely room for both in a list. Tough cut, but he can't stay.

Gyre Sage: This card I'm on the fence about. It adds zero pressure when it comes down, its just a vanilla 1/2 body. It demands removal or bad things happen,yes, but most times its just going to slow you down, not your opponent. It can get
quite big with BTE+Boar->GCR, but that messes up your curve. This card is a bit too "rampy" for my tastes. If you want to play Increasing Savagery, there's a G/R thread made.

Lightning Mauler: BTE+LM is great, amazing. But without that? This guys going nowhere. Enabling other cards is great, but I rather have every card be a powerful card on its own in this deck. Less reliance on synergy, more reliance on cards working independently. Still, if you force removal around him against control, haste is the key to beating control match-ups. Definitely a goto card if you want to go "under" the meta, but he's not getting through even a lingering soul token. The fact that he dies to augur and trades with 1/4 of a lingering soul card is a huge drawback to me.

Mogg Flunkies: More reliance on others. Body is nice, drawback is huge.

Skarrg Guildmage: Going to copypaste what I said in the R/
g sligh thread. I think this guy is our stonewright. Stonewright requires two creatures to be effective, so you're extending your hand more than with guild mage by default. Skarrg is a threat by himself, he demands removal whereas Stonewright can often just demand you remove the soulbound creature and save on removal until you hit a board wipe. Stonewright turns 1 mana into 1 damage, very efficient, Skarrg turns 4 mana effecitvely into a 4/4 body, which is better on defense and is the same mana-to-damage ratio if only in increments of 4.

Giving your team Trample is just a bonus. Currently needs more testing as he has proven to only be better than Stonewright against control, but in a different way. Guildmage can come down after a boardwipe and do work, while Stonewright helps you not overextend with just two creatures before it.
3 drops
Borderland Ranger: 2/2 for 3? That sounds awful considering our other cards. Yeah but this guy
plays an important role. There's no greater pressure than curving out on time and before your opponent, and this guy makes it happen. I wouldn't run too many because he is only 2/2, but dropping him with a 4 drop you wouldn't other wise be able to cast is gravy. Also is the nuts when curving into hellrider.

Boros Reckoner: If there were ever a card that needed no help from other cards. This guy is power. Rancor hat him, trample with him, soulbound him to silverheart. Exponentially more powerful. Definitely a staple in some number here. Only draw back is he's slow and most people have cards to deal with him in their 75 at this point.

Crocanura: Interesting... card. Most everything else will evolve it, its not tied down with Defender either. Might have some potential, but there are much better options in the current meta.

Hellraiser Goblin: Nothing like saying every threat you have is going to
come swinging out the gates right? But he's a 2/2 and can allow your opponent to play around you easily when you're THAT predictable. Might get to see play after rotation with Raiders to improve our 4 drop.

Splatter Thug: Another card that needs to not be ignored. Definitely post rotation might have a spot. MORE first strike+trample shenagins? With a 3/3 body? Shouldn't be overlooked if our other 3-slot options go away.

Pyreheart Wolf: Great enabler for your team. On his own? At best swings for 3-4 with a rancor on him. Undying is very valuable against removal strategies, but I don't know if he's quite strong enough on his own. Could be better than Borderland ranger as a utility creature, depending on if you want evasion or CA. Definitely much better with Hellrider strategies than Hounds. Contests with Reckoner for the 3 drop. Reckoner is fine on his own, but slow and not resilient anymore. Pyreheart is great support for
everything you dropped before him, but is a weak 1/1 on his own.

Wolfir Avenger: Double GG cost is too harsh on this deck. This guy is for another deck altogether.
4 Drops
Archwing Dragon: If you really need someone going over the top each turn immune to sorcery, there's this guy. Not much synergy with Rancor's or other threats (unless you can cast rancor every turn as well, as a pseudo 5-drop), might not be that bad if its a control heavy meta.

Ghor-Clan Rampager: A solid card. Bloodrush mode is a threat everyone should be afraid of by now. His 4/4 body definitely makes the cut as well, trample is great too. A staple for this build, but 4 of might be too many, since he is lackluster against control and opens you up to 2-1s if not played properly.

Hellrider: Enough said? 4 mana is actually pretty steep for a sligh. Have
at least 2 of them if you run 20 lands, the full 4 if you run 22 lands. Run at your own risk for anything less.

Hound of Griselbrand: Undying is key against board wipes and MUs that try to get ahead by 2-1ing you. Can go toe to toe with anything mid range has to offer, and comes back stronger. With Rancor? Unstoppable. With GCR? Well I like to think of that as our Thrag+Resto combo, except 16 to the face is a LOT more fun that "I gain 5 bro" Has to fight with hellrider for a slot, but would definitely include if against Loxodon's and Thrags every night. Defintely SB material for sligh looking to have more resilience against control.

Huntmaster of the Fells: This guy... is value. Not power, not speed, just value. I don't know if he makes the cut here. Do I want to spend my 4th turn gaining life and having another 2/2 dude? Isn't that what BTE chains are for? Do I want to spend my 5th turn doing nothing so I can flip this
guy?

I don't think he's aggressive enough. I don't think he has enough rage in his heart to make the cut.

Thundermaw Hellkite:This guy is expensive. Saito greedily ran 3 in his SB of the 20 land version, and his philosophy (I think) is this: In games where you get flooded, you want maximum power for your land. That's where you need Hellkites, hwoever if you're not flooded, you should have enough gas to beat control anyway. You're definitely not casting them on curve in Sligh, but his thoughts are worth consideration.

Zealous Conscripts: Another solid 5 drop that is just too expensive Can steal planeswalkers and everything in between. A 3/3 body though is weak. Stealing something then Domri -2ing it is golden, but is it worth it?

Burn Spells+Clan Defiance
Taken word for word from Zemanjaski
X Cost Burn
[
card]Clan Defiance[/card]: This is Gruul style burn. Can create double as a blowout with Boros Reckoner to the face as a mana sink finisher, and also as 3-1 removal. Might be a bit too "midrange" for use in our decks however.

T1 Cost Burn
Electrickery: Brand new from RTR, this is quite a nice spell against decks with a lot of mana dorks or tokens. More of a sideboard card because it cannot burn the opponent out and will be dead against a lot of decks.
Geistflame: Always popular with Burning Vengeance players, Geistflame is one of the hardest working spells around. Unfortunately, it is better suited to decks with more mana and more time to use it - it just isnt high impact enough to warrant a spot in an aggressive deck. Could be considered for sideboard play, or maybe even as a singleton maindeck, although electrickery is possibly better.
[card]
Mugging[/card]: Our new 'shock' from GTC. Does not go upstairs. This is a problem.
Pillar of Flame: Normally Shock is not playable, but now is not a normal time. The zombie scourge is rife in the format, and Pillar of Flame is the very best card we have against that deck. Play 4, either in your maindeck or split with your sideboard. Also has upside against decks running Moorland Haunt.

Summary: Red decks should avoid running low impact burn spells. The idea is always to play high impact spells so that we can kill them with as few cards as possible (reduces the time for them to go bigger than us, increases our consistency, minimises dead draws). However, with Zombies being so popular at the moment, the common widsom is that a full four Pillar of Flame is necessary. Consider Electrickery as a sideboard card if tokens or mana dork decks are
popular where you play.

2 Cost Burn
Mizzium Mortars: While Mizzium Mortars is receiving a lot of rave reviews, do remember it is often a slow Flame Slash. Whether the card make the sideboard will depend entirely on what the critical number is in the format - are most creatures x/3 or smaller? If there are a lot of x/4s running around (such as Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel) then Mizzium Mortars will be worth some sideboard slots. Right now, with GW and UW being so popular, Mortars is very likely a solid maindeck choice.
Searing Spear: While terrible in any other deck, this sort of effect is the bread and butter of a red aggressive deck. When you need to top deck a win, this is the card you always want to be drawing. Play the full four.
Skull Crack: One of a handful of anti-lifegain
cards we were given in GTC. Actively good against Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation decks, very likely worth some number of sideboard slots just to combat those decks. Not good enough to maindeck because it isn't actually removal.
Thunderbolt: Quite a difficult card to evaluate in a vacuum. Last season saw the format dominated by Insectile Aberration and Restoration Angel, and Thunderbolt was an incredibly good maindeck card. This season we're not sure what will rise to the top, but at least the card is never dead. If not a maindeck card, then definitely a good sideboard option.

Summary: Every red deck shoul start with a full set of Searing Spear. Beyond that, make choice depending on what is popular in the metagame.

3 Cost Burn
Annhiliating Fire: A mix between Searing Spear and Pillar of Flame. The question for this card is, do you need an
extra few copies of either of those cards? If not, look elsewhere. Annhiliating Fire is just too efficient for consideration unless you really need (slightly worse) additional versions of either of those spells.
Brimstone Volley: While a powerhouse early on in the format, as defensive measures have improved, it has become less and less reaslistic to burn out an opponent. Consequently, there has been a strong move towards more creature heavy decks that can produce more damage over time, and to make space, Brimstone Volley has largely dissappeared from competitive decks.
Fires of Undeath: A Limited All-Star, Fires is probaby a little too slow for a Rakdos deck. But if you are really set on making the grindiest possible BR deck, this could be a good fit.
Flames of the Firebrand: This seasons Arc Lightning, Arc Trail, [card]Forked Bolt[/
card]. Probably worth a couple copies in the maindeck and maybe a few more in the board. What you expect to face will largely inform how many copies you are after, and what the correct split is between main and board.

Summary: Much like with creatures, red is pretty light at the three spot. The only real decision is how many copies of Flames of the Firebrand you want in your 75, and how to split them between your maindeck and sideboard.

Other Burn Spells
Bonfire of the Damned: Easily the best red card in the format, and maybe the best card in the entire format, Bonfire of the Damned is unfortunately just not that good in red decks :( The problem is that aggressive red decks run fewer lands, so the bonfire is inherently less powerful, and also more likely to get stuck in our hand. One thing to consider is that Bonfire is only going to be good
when we draw it. If most our our games go a maximum of 6 turns, the card is more likely than not going to be bad (7 starting cards vs. 5 draw steps). At the same time, for the versions running more land, this is definitely a card worth considering, though be sure to look at Mizzium Mortars first.
[card]Devil's Play[/card]: For those time when you want to just kill your opponent out of nowhere, there is this. Devil's Play is very slow, but I have heard it of been successful as a 1-of in decks with more land - sometimes you can just kill them in two turns with just this spell.
Thunderous Wrath: Much like Bonfire of the Damned, though the effect is even weaker. Does start to look attractive in a straight burn deck with ways to turn it on or discard it however.
Wrack with Madness: While it was amazing tech against last season's Phyrexian Obliterator, it really has no purpose in
the current metagame.

Summary: Well, these cards are all over the place. The standouts are the two red miracles - Bonfire of the Damned and Thunderous Wrath. They're usually pretty unreliable in a red aggressive deck, but if you make some deck building concessions, you might be able to make them work.
Sideboarding
Sam Black and AJ Sacher's teachings have led me to this:
Sideboarding at its highest level, is creating a solid 60 card deck EACH time you side board. You can't just take out random 1-ofs of cards and cram in relevant tech. You need to cut the weak aspects and add more relevant parts. In aggro, there are different types of boarding.

1. Transformational Board. This type of boarding includes taking out weaker 1-drops and cards (firefist striker) for cards that are stronger on their own and better for a long game (Thundermaw Hellkite, Ruric Thar). This type forgoes the "sligh" plan for having a longer more valuable game
plan that won't fold to the opponents SB plan of "stop them in their tracks and stabilize.

2. Augmenting Board. This boarding keeps you on the low and sleek curve, but it cuts the less relevant cards for cards that will augment your weaker creatures. For instance, instead of cutting Stromkirk because its bad against Boros Reckoner, you cut Mauler because the haste is less relevant in post board games, and you add in Volcanic Strength so your stromkirks can go AROUND Reckoner and continue to grow.

Relevant Sideboard Cards by rcawraspy
Mizzium Mortars - Realistically we're never using this for its overload cost. If the game's going that long, it's not in our favor anyway, even if we do clear their board. But having a couple of these against Augur, Resto angel, and some other x/3 or x/4 in the meta is nice.

Pillar of Flame - should be in your 75 somewhere. Many decks only run Spear MB, so this should likely be a
4-of SB. The best answer to Voice of Resurgence and great against other aggro decks.

Electrickery - decent early against Naya Blitz and one of the best ways to deal with an Invisible Stalker in those Bant Enchant matchups.

Flames of the Firebrand - a very undervalued card but oh so good against Naya Blitz and the mirror. Sometimes it's a more expensive Searing Spear, but every once in a while it's a 3-for-1. It's usually a 2-for-1, which is good enough in my book.

Domri Rade - the little engine that could. He laughs at Azorious Charm and helps us keep chugging along. Good for longer matchups and, as mentioned, especially good against UW/x decks.

SKullcrack - it's a trap! We rarely if ever want to be keeping mana open for this, and when we do it's just a guessing game. And the opponent has an equal opportunity to guess WHY
we kept mana up. Can help against opponents chaining Thragtusk or Sphinx's Revelation, but I wouldn't suggest it.

Volcanic Strength - great against any deck running mountains. Be careful of being 2-for-1'd, but honestly this deck doesn't care about that TOO much. It sacrifices that sort of play for burst strength. Bring in against Naya Blitz, the mirror, and creature-based RDW. Could bring in game 2 and side back out game 3 against Jund - they're often bringing in Tragic Slip which this gets past.

Ash Zealot - one of Red's best 2 drops ever, but can't be chained from a BTE. Therefore not a mandatory MB card for us, but can be tech in the SB against aggro and token decks. On the draw I'm not unhappy swapping 4 Stromkirk Noble for 4 Zealots.

Legion Loyalist - this isn't typically a 1-drop. You usually want to drop this then swing with
an army turns 3+ for a bit of a sorcery speed combat trick. Can be chained from BTE and is super relevant against tokens or other aggro (first strike and trample? yes please).

Madcap Skills - with Firefist Striker MB I don't think we need this any longer, but it's an extra blocking = bad effect. Super techy on an Ash Zealot.

Pyreheart Wolf - if Reckoner is MB, this should be a heavy consideration SB. Bring in against any deck that can give you a clogged board state.

Traitorous Blood - my favorite of the threaten effects for this deck, as the trample is super relevant and the double R is easy. You're bringing this in against Jund and Junk Rites mostly, though it can also be useful against "sledgehammer" aggro builds.

Against Naya Blitz: Pillar and Flames of the Firebrand
Against RDW: Volcanic Strength, Pillar, Flames
Against Jund Midrange: Volcanic Strength (
for game 2 only), Ash Zealot, Traitorous Blood, Pyreheart Wolf
Against Junk Rites: Pillar, Traitorous Blood, Pyreheart Wolf, Ash Zealot
Against Esper and Flash Control: Domri, Pyreheart Wolf, Ash Zealot
Sample Decklists
Recent
[deck="Donovan Harvie, 1st place PTQ]4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble

Lands (18)
10 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground

Spells (12)
2 Volcanic Strength
4 Searing Spear
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Mugging
2 Pillar of Flame

Sideboard
4 Reckless Waif
2 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
2 Thunderbolt
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Traitorous Blood[/deck]

[deck="Zach McKeever SCG IQ, 1st Place]Creatures (32)
4 Ash Zealot
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hellrider
4 Lightning Mauler
n4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
Lands (20)

12 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
Spells (8)

4 Searing Spear
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Mugging
Sideboard

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Boros Reckoner
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Triumph of Ferocity
2 Skullcrack
2 Blasphemous Act
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Traitorous Blood[/deck]

[deck="Fate's Top8 NC States Tournament]
35 Creatures
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hellrider

21 Land
11 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Temple Garden

4 Spells
4 Searing Spear


Sideboard
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Elecktrickery
2 Skullcrack
3 Domri Rade[/deck]
Last edited by Link on Wed May 29, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Postby Christen » Thu May 02, 2013 9:49 am

Graveyard hate doesn't fit the deck as it plays close to its mono-red roots. I'd rather play more threaten effects than grave hate.

I also like the split of Reckoners in the MB and SB. I believe we have already agreed that Reckoner isn't aggressive enough for this kind of deck. I would want to test Pyreheart Wolf in its slot. You can even chain a Pyreheart Wolf from a BTE without extra mana.
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Postby Link » Thu May 02, 2013 5:02 pm

I prefer Wolves myself somewhere in the 75 as well.

This list is one closer to I would run:

[deck]Mark Simard, 4th Place SCG IQ[/deck]

I really would miss Rancor's but I can see why people wouldn't run it. If you get green screwed with rancors in your hand... gg. 2-1 is a possibility as well, but not the main reason not to run it.

I really want to know how people SB in Skullcracks. Against people running thrags to stabilize? I've only run them against Turbofog, but I don't know if I would
want 4 slots dedicated in my SB to one match-up that isn't really that popular. My guess is I would cut Searing Spears for Skullcracks against life-gain, aka Junk rites.

I'd cut 2 skullcracks minimum for +1 Domri +1 Pillar.

I'd also probably move the pillar to the SB so I could have 21 land MB for more consistency getting hellriders out.

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Postby Pyreheart Bezerra » Thu May 02, 2013 7:27 pm

I would like to try the all in mono-red variant splash green as my sligh list in these colors. I like firefist striker in my block deck and zeman's idea of the most "cant block wont block" is just sweet.

Something like?
[deck=Pyreheart R/g Sligh]
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Stiker
4 Ash Zealot
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Pyreheart Wolf
3 Hellrider

3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Searing Spear

4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
12 Mountains
1 Hellion Crucible

Sideboard
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Traitorous Blood
2 Domri Rade
2 Volcanic Strength
2 Rolling Temblor/Blashpemous Act
[/deck]

This is just thrown together, but where I would start with this archetype. Then adjust based on my meta and how it fairs. I am curious to see if the speed this deck offers is enough to put it over the hammer version. I guess that is why Lightning Mauler
is so important, he has a lot to do with adding velocity to the sligh builds.

Edit: As for the crucible, there is not enough green sources here to get value out of Kessig and I feel like this build really needs a utility land and one more mana sink. I will see if this truly makes a difference helping to not lose steam or if I am better served with a mountain and possibly another stonewright.
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Postby Link » Tue May 07, 2013 11:21 pm

I'm trying to make rancor work in sligh just because I like the card too damn much.

IMO R/g sligh can go two ways:

"Suicide" sligh where you just throw your guys sideways and swarm them with LM, BVolley and no Ash Zealots

Pros: Explosive starts. Definitely punishes anyone with a weak hand or that stumbles. Fast and redundant
Cons: /1 creatures vulnerable to a lot of meta cards, Lingering souls, bonfire for 1, etc. Also even elecktrickery is seeing some lists now.

"Trample" sligh where you lean on stronger creatures and power through them. Leans heavily on rancor, GCR, ash zealot, Reckoner, and Stonewright against control.

Pros: More resillient. Doesn't fold to as many things as suicide sligh can. Better match-ups against midrange and junk rites (imo).

Cons: Weaker to control G1. Relying on enchantments (rancor) or bloodrush to put damage through gives you a weakness that can be exploited,
since you care about your creatures surviving. Also much weaker in the mirror so SB should have slots dedicated to that MU.

I think control is less popular than Midrangey decks, so I'm going with trample sligh. Or maybe its just more my style. Suicide sligh decks take a little bit less thinking and fold a little bit easier, they are pretty much what the MTG community sees as "RDW" and why they laugh at it. Trample sligh gives more room to outplay the opponent, imo at least.



Also I've started to learn to abuse skullcrack. Its just takes a LOT more thinking when using.

E.g.:

I can play a reckoner, or hold up mana for Skullcrack

or

I can haste out a boar for damage now, or hold up skullcrack.

Well, you have to do the math. Are you winning? Do you NEED more pressure? Will you be able to win next turn with the 8 point life swing, or is the decreased pressure not worth it?

Not groaning from the depths of my soul when a Rhox faithmender comes down is nice too. I at least
have more outs if I crack their +10 thrag. Also 4 mana is ideal, so no more 18/19 lists for me. 4 mana lets you bloodrush and hold up crack mana or what have you.

I'm also trying out "Armed//Dangerous" as a 2-of in the SB.


I only reccomend it if you're running rancors. Way too narrow otherwise (better off running BActs for Reckoner combo.)

Its taking the place of TBloods / BActs in my side.

Pros:
Is less narrow than BActs. Bacts are only good, in our game plan, WITH reckoner. Otherwise its dead against anything but aggro, and even then you should just be racing them better (and usually if you're losing you won't have the mana up to cast it in time without BTE.)
Arm/Dng is a finisher in combination with: Reckoner (4x) GCR (4x) Rancor (4x) Noble (4x) ok its not a finisher with noble but it really helps accelerate her clock because of the counter inbetween strikes.

That's 16 cards in my board that I can use Arm/Dng with.

Cons:
Literally useless if you don't have
creatures. Playing against control? Unless you can haste out a boar and play this for 5 mana after a verdict, well... its a SB card. Just don't bring it in against control. Also is sorcery speed, which makes armed bad without trample. Dangerous can make anyone absorb a ground stall, but its really only ideal with reckoner.

That's all I've got for today.

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Postby Link » Wed May 08, 2013 3:23 am

after more testing I'm falling back on staple threaten effect over Armed/D... another "post-rotation" card I suppose... Turns out stealing a creature is much more useful and harder to deal with han buffing your own creature. I blame Rhox faithmender having 5 toughness. Armed+GCR is still great, but its not enough to make the card reliable.

Dangerous is also great but like I said only "Great" great with Reckoner. Also had too many games where I didn't hit 4 land on curve to use it (and would've been better off as tblood.) Apparently the only 4 mana card that will ever make the cut in sligh right now is Hellrider or Aristocrat, and for good reason.

I keep trying to re-invent the wheel and the wheel keeps saying "I'm fucking fine, wait until rotation"

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Postby lorddax » Wed May 08, 2013 5:21 pm

I keep trying to re-invent the wheel and the wheel keeps saying "I'm fucking fine, wait until rotation"
This is usually where a lot of my brewing ends up. I think Gruul sligh is going to be very good in October when we lose some of the Avacyn cards that have been fueling our decks. Now if one wanted to blindly test the consistency of such a thing with not knowing any of the m14 or Theros cards, well that would be intriguing lol
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Postby Pyreheart Bezerra » Wed May 08, 2013 10:50 pm


This is usually where a lot of my brewing ends up. I think Gruul sligh is going to be very good in October when we lose some of the Avacyn cards that have been fueling our decks. Now if one wanted to blindly test the consistency of such a thing with not knowing any of the m14 or Theros cards, well that would be intriguing lol
Its called block constructed :tongue:
Anyways though, my mono-red in block is very fast. Basically looks like the suicide red lists, with foundry street denizin in place of noble. I could see that easily becoming Gruul in october, so long as we get a decent replacement for the check lands and flinthoof boar.
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Postby Link » Fri May 10, 2013 7:14 am

4-0 for first tonight

1 vs. B/u Zombies-not much worth mentioning. Out-dated deck is out-dated. I raced him without seeing a single pillar in both games for his messenger's, though I did have 3 spears G2 for his VNH and his zombie captain guy.

2. Naya Midrange
This. Guy. Famous for his graceless defeats, I made him rage like I manage to every week. He kept a shitty hand with sunpetal groves and arbor elves, and bitched about how if he had a temple garden he would've had AoS down a turn earlier and stomped me.

-4 Nobles
-4 Cacklers
-4 Rancor
+4 VS
+2 Traitorous Blood
+2 Pillar
+3 Skullcracks
+1 Reckoner
(I just realized how much of my SB when into that match-up...)


Play BTE+BTE into VS T2. I was doing this because I had another VS in hand and a boar, and I didn't want my boar mortar'd before I could pump it. He laughs cockily "LOL4TOUGHNESS BOOM MORTARS" when I enchant my boar with VS he
starts raging "WDF GETTING CHEESED BY A TWO MANA ENCHANTMENT." and "WHO SEES 2 VS IN ONE GAME?" was priceless.

Did I mention that this assclown swapped decks out just to play me?. Yeah. That's right, he was running fuckign possibility storm+curse of exhaustion horseshit, swapped it out for his naya midrange against me.

THEN he goes on in the next round back to playing his BS combo against my girlfriend, who ALMOST won with her grixis control list until an arbor elf became an AoS (literally his only out the turn before he died), and he starts laughing "hahehhaha i got revenge fro losing to your BF's VS" Most unlikable douche ever. Cheats at FNM with two decks FFS.

3. Aristocrats Act 2
even after he slipped my noble he just couldn't handle BTEs and Rancor. Pillar'd his blood artists (he had two out) and he just couldn't stabilize.

-4 Cacklers
-4 Rancor
+4 VS
+1 Reckoner
+2 Pillars
+1 Traitorous Blood (weird singleton to throw in, I
knew it'd be useless against sac outlets but I figured it'd be "pseudo" removal for falkenrath or just straight up steal a lone reckoner wall for game)

4. Bant Flash
Finals and a serious match-up. This guy is part of the GT team that goes to pro tours and stuff from last week. Luckily (well unluckily, she has bad luck in match-ups in games) my GF got paired with him round 1. She went 1-1-1 because of time, and I got to see most of his deck: Avengers, Advents, Dissipates, Snaps, Resto angels, azo charms, augurs, etc.

I won the diceroll, mulliganed a hand with hellrider, spear, GCR, land, and smashed him out hard with a cackler, cackler, rancor, boar hand. He was surprised that I hit him that hard after mulling, don't think he understood the point of mulling in aggro decks.

G2 he starts sideboarding heavily, I don't know if he's on the thragtusk plan though, so I leave out skullcracks. Can't have a dead card here

-4 Nobles
-1 Rancor
+3 Domri
+2 Tbloods (for those wurms)

His
hand he admits is "pretty trolly." And it was.

He azo charms the first thing, I throw down Domri +1, get it back. "Thats a stupid interaction" he' smad bro.

He azo charms a boar, I +1.

he throws down a resto angel though, and beats at domri. I'm fine with this because I got a rancor-d boar that doesn't have to trade with that resto angel.

He restos an augur (which I didn't spear, big mis play), and reveals a selesnya charm. There' goes my boar. Reckoners came down and were too slow as well.

I laughed about "aggro with CA" but the jokes on me, I end the game with 7 freakin cards in my hand. There was a turn where I had to spear his face on my turn just to not discard. I had more cards than mana to play it all. It ended because he had a THIRD resto angel, and he used a THIRD azo charm for lifelink, he gained 12 back up to 15 or 17, and there was no way I could race that in one turn.

G3 I take out Domris for my nobles again and want to kill him ASAP. Didn't
see a thrag so still not using cracks. Game plan goes off smooth (no hellrider) and I win just by having more dudes then he had Azo charms this game.

I also speared every Avenger I saw before I could block.

My spears were the real MVP of tonight. Would run 8 of them if I could.

This guy also traded my 3 promo pillars+skullcrack to fill out my sets... for a sacred foundry. It was a pretty dumb trade but I was like "hell I love my deck and the cards I'm playing matter more than the ones in my binder" so I went with it. He also had promo Spears in spanish, but he overvalued those and I couldn't trade for em =/

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Postby Link » Mon May 13, 2013 9:55 pm

Went up to 21 land for the 3 riders and streamlined my SB by taking out the MB pillars.

[deck]
31 Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Hellrider

8 Support
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear

21 Land
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
11 Mountain


SB:
4x Volcanic Strength
4x Skullcrack
4x Pillar of Flame
3x Domri Rade[/deck]

I want nothing but to burn out Naya blitz, VS jund and Naya midrange, stop thrags lifegain from stabilizing (rancor makes my threats strong enough that I dont carea bout thrags body).

Weakness:
No threaten. Might be a mistake, since I currently have no way of beating AoS except to get them in burn range before she comes down. Was considering cuttting a skullcrack and a VS for 2x Threaten effects. But I don't know what I'd take out in the rites
matchup for pillars AND cracks AND tblood. Just feels too diluted for me

alternative "3-ofs" SB plan+deck:

[deck]30 Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Hellrider

9 Support
4 Searing Spear
3 Rancor
2 Pillar of Flame

21 Land
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
11 Mountain

SB:
3x Volcanic Strength
3x Skullcrack
3x Mark of Mutiny
3x Domri Rade
2x Pillar of Flame
1x Reckoner[/deck]


Probably just going to run the latter so I have access to pillar G1. Means cutting a rancor from my list which was really, really hard. Also cut VS and cracks down so I could better deal with AoS (and a variety of other decks threaten is good against but life-gain hate isn't)

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Postby Valdarith » Tue May 14, 2013 5:07 pm

Fate, fix the primer. You have the 2 and 3 cmc spoilers wrapped in the 1 cmc spoiler.

As far as this archetype goes, I've been playing with it online a bit and have finally settled on the optimal configuration for a sub-20 land deck.

[deck]Creatures (37)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Pyreheart Wolf
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (4)
4 Rancor

Lands (19)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Temple Garden
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Ground Seal
3 Domri Rade
3 Boros Reckoner
[/deck]

The only contentious part of this list could be the two Ground Seal in the sideboard. It's only for Rites strategies and it has won me a couple of games, but an effective argument for Traitorous Blood could be made. Many Rites decks are mainboarding some number of
Acidic Slime and have a full playset in their 75. In this regard, they will likely use the ETB effect on the Ground Seal, but this DOES buy us a couple of turns. Traitorous Blood allows us to steal their AoS but if our opponent is sitting at more than 5 life this will likely be meaningless.

On the play, I'd say TBlood is marginally better, and on the draw, I'd have to go with Ground Seal as a cantrip and a pain in the neck for our opponent to deal with. Overall, I give the edge to Ground Seal in the Rites matchup. TBlood can come in against midrange strategies as well, but we already have Pyreheart Wolf, Boros Reckoner, Firefist Striker, Rancor, et al to deal with these strategies. I just don't think there's much room for TBlood as well.

As for the maindeck, dropping all spells but Rancor has made a big difference. The deck has a lot more fuel now and many more keepable hands.
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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 5:43 pm

Fixing it thanks.

As much as it would hurt me to drop hellrider... I've been doing too many shitty things to try to fit him in. going up to 22 land (flooding is auto-loss and it doesn't even increase your chance to hit 4 on time but by 10-15%). This is a list I can get behind, all the creatures I want, pyrewild for floods, rancor, gas for days, evasion over skullcrack to deal with thrag, etc.

4 land is just so hard to get to sometimes. Even at 21-22, hes great when hes great, but its hard to make him great sometimes.

Hopefully I can crack some pyrewilds at draft tonight.

Domri must be insane with 37 creatures vs. UWr

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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 5:58 pm

tormod's crypt can't be targeted by acidic slime profitably and you can play dudes the same turn? hmmm

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Postby Valdarith » Tue May 14, 2013 6:02 pm

tormod's crypt can't be targeted by acidic slime profitably and you can play dudes the same turn? hmmm
It's something to consider. That there's no tempo loss to play it is a big deal.
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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 6:16 pm

It also makes people play funny, like I had a guy once try to bait the tomrod by unburial rites'ing a lotleth troll... He then discarded an AoS.

I mean you can argue that they wouldn't be playing Unburial rites period with the ground seal, but the tempo loss is significant if they ramp up to a hardcast AoS because you played a ground seal for a turn instead of a dude or two dudes and a Crypt.

Since I don't own Pyrewild's, I have two reckoners MB and I'm adding two elecktrickeries to the SB. its good agaisnt Bantchantments, Mirror, Naya Blitz, Junk rites souls and dorks, etc. (I think its hard to race bant enchantments since youre NOT running skullcracks for Unflinching Courage, so your best bet is to 2-1 their rancors n shit on fenchin aces/stalkers)

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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 7:33 pm

oh wow.

WOW.

This build is sweet Vala

I made some more tweaks though:

No pyrewilds so I subbed Reckoner right? BUT reckoner wasn't where I wanted to be at MB. When you want to play him optimally, aka definsively with first strike mana up (4 mana total), you almost always want to play a hellrider and just race instead (G1 at least).

Put hellriders back in (2 of), currently testing what to cut 1 of down for for another mountain (1 striker atm, so he can come out 3-3 with VS in the mirror and 4 rancors out for 4 pillars, 4 cacklers+1 GCR for Reckoner and elecktrickery)

I realized the problem with my build above WASNT hellrider and not being able to cast him on curve, it was spears/pillars MB. I would have only one or two guys out maybe, having speared and pillard things or w/e, andthen Id NEED to cast hellrider on curve, but getting the 4th land is hand.

With this deck I've found I don't care if hellrider
is stuck in my hand because he ISNT stuck on T4. On t4 I stil have shit tons of gas, and when I finally do find that 4th land (t5, t6, t7), hellrider+Striker+Pyreheart wolf is DISGUSTING. Absolutely disgustingly unfair. As a 2 of I see him about once per match and he is pretty much a windmill slam finisher.


This is just against Naya blitz so far, the match-up I was worried about not having spears for. Going to test against some junk rites+UWr midrange (more popular than control now, aka no verdicts=swarm deckwins).

Not testing with shaman I don't have a well-formed opinion, but I think he was printed mono red for a reason. I think he's the new "stonewright" which R/g doesn't play anyway. I think shaman might be for a grindier red sledgehammer who DEFINITELY runs their spears and their burn.

I think for our "Gruul Zoo" hellrider has a much better place, as a 2-of at least.

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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 8:29 pm

cutting the 3rd pyreheart over the striker for the 20th land. Was seeing 2 pyrehearts a bit too often, and I rather see more strikers and it makes for more plays when stuck on 2 land.

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Postby Valdarith » Tue May 14, 2013 9:23 pm

I think 1-2 Hellrider may be alright. There have been times that I've had a clogged boardstate where Hellrider could have won me the game, and we don't necessarily need to be casting him on turn four. He could be a better choice over Pyrewild Shaman.
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Postby rcwraspy » Tue May 14, 2013 9:41 pm

Fate, a few posts up you have Reckoners MB and no Pyrehearts anywhere in the 75. How do you like Reckoner MB?

Personally I got tired of seeing him in my build. I really only want him if I'm on defense. Against a midrange build or a control build playing Augurs and Restos, I definitely want Pyreheart's evasion granting.

And often against Naya Blitz style decks I have the bigger critters anyway. I keep 3 Reckoners in the side and bring them in if I feel I just can't outpace what I'm facing, which isn't often.

I think your list also didn't have LMs. Which means no haste for Reckoner T3. The list has obviously been working for you, but why Reckoner over Wolf?
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Postby Link » Tue May 14, 2013 9:55 pm

I think hes more flexible than wolf because he can wall aggro and go on the offensive. Also since I wasn't playing LM, Wolves weren't really necessary because most things got into the red zone on their own with rancor, aka my creatures were being double blocked anyway. My game plan was just to have "value" creatures with solid support. So no x/1 creatures, and Reckoner is obviously more "solid" as a creature than wolf on his own.

It had issues against tempo strategies, and also could run out of gas in the mirror where I would run into games where I just didnt have enough removal to stabilize OR threats to race.

I'm definitely liking Reckoners in the SB and this new list now though. Even if it is more vulnerable to bonfires and electrickeries, you FORCE them to have it to stabilize or else it just mops up.

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Postby Christen » Thu May 16, 2013 5:08 pm

Full report on tonight's standard in my LGS

[deck]RG Sligh[/deck]

One thing I learned from this night is, you will need green sources every game. If your opening hand has no green sources, even though everything is playable, give it a second thought.

Round 1 - Junk Reanimator (2-0)]
Rites decks these days run Fiend Hunters and they can be a pain if not dealt with. The list I was playing against was running Blood Baron as well. The pilot was no pushover as well as Ive lost to his deck quite a number of times.

Game 1 - I was on the draw but I opened up with a good curve. He didn't draw too much creatures to defend himself. He did Fiend Hunter a Reckoner but I had 6 power on the board. I played everything I have not worrying about a hardcast Angel of Serenity since I have more than enough creatures to deal lethal even if he played a Thragtusk.

SB: -4 Noble, -4 Cackler, +2 Hound, +4 Mortars, +2 Pillar

Game 2 - I put in a couple of Pillars expecting Voice of Resurgence or a random dork kill that might be relevant. We both mulled to 5 and I kept a hand of Stomping, Mountain, Flinthoof, Ghor-Clanx2. I attacked as soon as turn 3, with a bloodrushed Pyrewild. Next turn, I attacked just to be met with a Restoration Angel just to be bloodrushed. Next turn, attack again and get flashed again so bloodrush. Next turn, I attack but he had his 3rd angel and I had no tricks. I drop a Reckoner. He topdeck Fiend Hunters the Reckoner and I drop Gruul War Chant. I attack next
turn with a hasty Ash Zealot intending to get back my Reckoner since I had a Pillar in hand. It turns out it was relevant after all. I got back my Reckoner only to be exiled by topdeck Angel of Serenity next turn. He doesn't attack because he was low on life and on topdeck mode. I drop an Ash Zealot and a Flinthoof Boar. He topdecks a Baron. I topdeck a Hellrider and it was game.

Round 2 - BW Zombies
The BW zombie list that acts close to an Aristocrats list running Bloodthrone Vampires, Blood Artists, etc. As true for decks running Gravecrawlers, it was weak on defense.

Game 1 - A 4-turn kill achieved with Stromkirk Noble opening ending with a Hellrider. Not much resistance.

SB: -4 Cackler, -2 Pyrewild, -2 Hellrider, +4 Pillar, +4 Mortars

Game 2 - He was able to stabilize early by killing my creatures asap. I didn't draw enough to prevent his double Messengers with Bloodthrone Vampire on the field and dropping a Vault of the Archangel to get away to dangerous life
levels (I got him down to 7 before stabilizing). I also wasn't able to get a green source on time to drop my boars and rampagers.

SB: -4 Mortars, -2 Pillar, +2 Hellrider, +4 Cackler

Game 3 - Basically, I want to go back to my game 1 list with a couple of Pillars to take care of early blockers just in case. Like game 1, he wasn't able to stabilize with an early defense and I got him down with a bloodrushed Ghor-Clan Rampager

Round 3 - Jund Midrange
The deck is the one that's been tearing up Standard lately. I knew that I had to have an aggressive start before the deck stabilizes.

Game 1 - He won the dice roll but started out slow. I had the perfect starting play, Stromkirk, to Zealot, to Flinthoof, to Hellrider. He didn't do much.

SB: -4 Noble, -4 Cackler, -3 Pyrewild, +4 Mortars, +2 Hound, +3 VS, +1 Domri

Game 2 - He made sure the early creatures I dropped won't be doing much. I got Bonfired twice and it was enough to get me down to lethal.

SB: No changes

nGame 3 - I started out again with a good hand that he wasn't able to deal with. He kept a risky hand that had Tragic Slip but no other removal. T2 BTE with Rancor, T3 Boar swing for 7, T4 Hellrider swing for 13.

Round 4 - UWr Control
This match is not really a good source of report since I was screwed both games.

Game 1 - I kept a Mountain x2, BTEx2, Ash Zealot, Reckoner, Ghor-Clan hand and figured I could build early presence to race. However, I didn't draw that green source early enough to drop my later draws. When I do drop my 3rd land, it got locked down by Tamiyo and I was stuck with Ash Zealot on the field and an Aurelia on the other side. It didn't last long.

SB: -3 Reckoner, -1 Gruul War Chant, +2 Hound, +2 Domri

Game 2 - I figured that I should cut down on the war chants since I didn't see too much creatures game 1. My starting 7 was Stomping, Cackler, BTEx2, Boarx2, Ash Zealot. It was tempting but I shipped it back. My next draws were sad, and I ended up
mulling to 3 because it was the only acceptable hand. Needless to say I lost that one too.

Analysis

Pyrewild Shaman didn't see too much play since it was just a 2-off and I only bloodrushed him once. I hardcast him once to block. You wouldn't be bringing him back into your hand too much depending on the matchup. It would be a good manasink later game.

Gruul War Chant is a card. I won games on the back of this card when it came down. Ash Zealot also becomes better. Angel of Serenity can't remove it like Pyreheart Wolf so that's a plus. The only real downside to it is the mana cost. It's pretty much a Pyreheart Wolf+Hellrider -3 damage. It doesn't replace Hellrider, but works very well with him in the field.

Further Modifications

So far, I don't see anything to be modified in the maindeck except for maybe cutting a card for an extra green source. Sideboard, I need to add to improve the
control matchup since I was having problems in siding in cards.

+1 Reckoner
+1 Domri
-1 Mortars
-1 Volcanic Strength

VS will not be too good against Jund Midranger for sure since they have access to the better removal spells so I cut it down to 2 cards. I'll be testing further and see where we could go from here.
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Postby Link » Thu May 16, 2013 6:01 pm

Im trying this out now with a guildgate (hate not being able to play zealot because of temple garden sometimes), -1 chant +1 rancor

Also don't own shamans so just 4 hellriders 4 reckoners MB.

Gruul chant already won me a game. Had 2 dudes out, they had 1. Slap it down, swing for moneys.

Plus this build has hounds in the SB again! HOW CAN I REFUSE?

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Postby Christen » Fri May 17, 2013 1:53 am

I might end up cutting a Pyrewild for a land since it only acts as an extra damage outlet.

I still don't want to cut Zealot. It's just too good even if you can't cast it off BTE.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 3:01 am

Cutting Zealot is idiotic and anyone that does it is being incredibly shortsighted.

I'm considering going down to three Rancor. I don't like seeing multiples. Also moved three Pillars back in after some thought. Between all the dorks, Naya Blitz, and Huntmasters, I feel like three in the main is correct.

I traded off my Hellriders a week ago but I'm considering getting two back to move maindeck. Might add a land as well. I have not yet tried Pyrewild Shaman but with Hellriser in the deck I don't think there will be room foe him.
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Postby Christen » Fri May 17, 2013 3:46 am

In my tests, 3 Rancor is good enough to see it in almost every game. Seeing multiples is only good if you have a threat in the field. What I'm debating is Kessig Wolf Run. For a low land list like mine, I got to activate it only a few times for the night (when I'm flooding). I also had to mull two hands because it was in my opening hand with only another colored source. I might just switch KWR to another Mountain or Gruul Guildgate.
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Postby Link » Fri May 17, 2013 4:53 am

I found KWR for even 1 or2 relevant, especially with hounds

its really bad with reckonber though on low lands

I'll post my list tomorrow, some logic in thekaufmann artjcle resonated with me

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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri May 17, 2013 7:45 am

[deck]
//Creatures
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Lightning Mauler

//Instants
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear

//Lands
9 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground

//Sideboard
4 Wasteland Viper
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 Mark of Mutiny
[/deck]

I'm not sure if I like this list or not.
Last edited by Kazekirimaru on Fri May 17, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Christen » Fri May 17, 2013 8:45 am

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like Firefist Striker over GTC in that list. Simply because it will screw up your opponent's blocks.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 3:58 pm

[deck]
//Creatures
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Lightning Mauler

//Instants
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear

//Lands
9 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground

//Sideboard
4 Wasteland Viper
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 Mark of Mutiny
[/deck]

I'm not sure if I like this list or not.
I am sure that I do not like this list.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 5:00 pm

Rolling with this now.

[deck]Creatures (35)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (6)
3 Rancor
3 Pillar of Flame

Lands (19)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Temple Garden
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
3 Volcanic Strength
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Domri Rade
3 Boros Reckoner
[/deck]

I've found that I need TBlood in Jund Midrange matchups much more than I need Ground Seal in Rites matchups. I went down one Rancor in the main because I didn't like seeing multiples in my hand. Also added three Pillar to the maindeck because I'm seeing so many decks with dorks, Huntmaster, Gyre Sage, Voice of Resurgence, etc and I want a way to deal with that in game one. It also gives me a good turn one play on the draw now that I have only eight
one drops in the deck. I'm also considering removing one Domri Rade in the side for a third TBlood.
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Postby Link » Fri May 17, 2013 6:16 pm

I.... cut Ash Zealot.

HOLD ON NOW. It was really fucking hard. Don't get me wrong, I've got a foil Ash Zealot and Chinese Rancors (which I cut because I really loved it with ash zealots), it was REALLY fucking hard.

Now before you tell me I'm a dumbass and idiotic, read this:

1. I did NOT cut Ash Zealot because I think she's bad. I didn't cut her because I was underwhelmed.

2. I did NOT cut Ash Zealot because her passive is "irrelevant" its far from irrelevant.

3. I STILL think Ash Zealot is the best 2 drop for Red. RED though, this is Gruul. I'd never cut her from a Mono red list

I cut her, because she's at odds with what the deck is trying to accomplish. Its like saying "why don't you have thragtusk in your Jund Smash build or Gruul Mirange build? ITS A SOLID CREATURE" your damn right it is. but its not what the DECK wants.

I read a lot of articles on deckbuilding, card choices,
etc. before making this decision. And even THEN I did one last bout of playtesting with the rancor version.

Let's start from the beginning. I'm Fate, and I tend to listen to what destiny is telling me:

One article I read about deck building was about "having a strong game plan." It specifically referenced R/g's game plan which was "to flood the board with creatures and then finish over the top with reach, hellrider and burn." That's our game plan, its solid, fast, and brutal.

Another article I read was: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26 ... t-Win.html yesterday.

The paintings are cute, but his friend is the true genius here, and he's as die hard of a Gruul player as I am (one of the guys at the LGS actually knew him and was at SCG Charlotte, so he told me he was a diehard gruul player). He had this sage
advice to offer:
Ash Zealot (can't Burning Tree Emissary into it and that card is the reason you're playing the deck
He was right. I wrote a damn article myself about why BTE is the nuts and makes this build. She's our consistent plan and we need to abuse ehr as much as possible.

But I was still hesistant because I love Ash zealots and I love my rancors. I pre-tested before the tourny against Jund. G1 I had won, G2 went like this:

I had an Ash Zealot with rancor out. I was gettin a little flooded. Remember what I said about reading destiny? I had both cards I was considering cutting. He lays down an olivia. Walp. I swing in with my "solid" ash zealot, but its not enough.

If Ash Zealot had been a hellrider (aka more hellriders for more consistent game plan of "flood then finish) and rancor had been a spear, spear olivia, abuse flood with hellrider, game.

Is it weak to say "well if tehse two cards had been this
and this i wouldve won" FUCK yaeh it is. But this is so specific, it was a sign. It was Zealot AND Rancor AND if they were the two cards I wanted to swap in for them, I would've had it.

It was Fate:

Then I went deeper. I knew there were a bunch of wannabes playing the same decklist that were just copy pasting it (some guy begged me for flinthoot boars. I laughed him off and said I got my playset for a buck, before you groupies drove him up to $3 per). Pillars MB is fine and good, but 4 hellrider were not. Neither was shaman imo, and I wanted MORE abuse of Emissary. Maulers are in. Mauler+1 drop on T3 is solid as fuck, mauler BTE is solid, at worst mauler to haste our reckoner is good.

This turned into another fated interaction: Round 1 was against human animator, an easy match-up yeah. I was on the draw, but had Noble, BTE+LM. If that LM was a pillar instead? He would've got his combo off because pillar would be dead.

Fuck the meta, having a strong game plan is key. The SB is for the meta,
my MB is as fast an as abusive of BTE as possible.

[deck]
[deck]Creatures (35)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Firefist Striker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hellrider

Spells (4)
4 Searing Spear

Lands (21)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Temple Garden
1 Gruul Guildgate (will become a templegarden when I can)
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Volcanic Strength
2 Skullcrack
2 Elecktrickery
3 Domri Rade
[/deck]


Running Elecktrickery over TBloods is interesting, but it kills lingering souls (which hose LM and Strikers), and the mana dorks that RAMP them to that angel. Also good in mirror (super popular), and against bant hexproof.

I played Hexproof, Naya Blitz, R/b Zombies after reanimator:

hexproof was tough. But things went as they should have, he had to mull both games to 6 because of consistency. I mulled G1 because my hand had GCR, Spear, Striker, land. Too slow. Got
down to a cackler hand and kept it.

He made a huge misplay:
Board was LM Cackler, I have in hand: BTE, GCR, GCR, Flinthoof Boar. He has a Invisible stalker suited up (no lifegain) and a Smiter out. I know I'm dead to another enchantment no matter what next turn, so I needed to figure out how to win in two turns. I realzied my best line of play was to hope for a topdecked land (was at 3) for double GCR next turn, and to BTE-> Boar this turn to suicide some damage through.

He doesnt block and goes "I got you on the backswing" flips over a selesnya charm. I say "no you dont, I'd be at 1" and point to my BTE that was hiding behind my attacking force. he swings with just his IS, he's on tilt now. I have him dead even if he exiles one bloodrush with selesnya charm, because I DID topdeck that land.


G2: Skullcrack saved me, enough said? He put it on his IS swung for 5 gained 5. I made a misplay the turn before by hasting out a boar and trying to firefist striker trigger his IS (
when I ahd a GCR in hand if he had blocked instead), but its hexproof... doh. He blocks the Striker, because he has a smiter in hand (but he's color screwed again, cause lol3 color decks). Swings back with life gain like I said. Turn after that I swing, blood rush for damage.

He puts on more pants, I crack because its not lethal, swing back for lethal.


Naya Blitz:
This guy was another non-aggro player wannabe, just playing ab orrowed deck. G1 I kept a slow hand, but didn't miss the pillars. My LM that would've been a pillar traded witha 2/2 champion anyway (block champion, spear mayor so they trade). G2 I side in the boat and destroy his mulliganed hand.

G3 I have two reckoners... he sided out frontline medics (lolwut) for boros charms... If the boros charm in his hand had been a frontline medic, I wouldn't have been able to race him. period.


Zombies:
THIS guy. G1 I crush him with double hellrider (good thing one wasn't an ash zealot eh) because he doesn't have eough removal for me.
n
THEN he offers for me to scoop to him so he doesnt walk with nothing and offers me 1st place prizes... No thanks lets see G2.

G2 I play super patient, baiting out all his spears, pillaring his early guys. He' stuck on Cavern-Zombies, swamp, mountain, with 2 VNH in hand. I bait his two spears with a boar and a LM, then BTE into VS on my hellrider (I swung with it for two turns to see if he had any left). EoT I spear him, he scoops.

Afterward he again tells me to scoop to him because "i get first either way" but the way he went about it was too shady for my liking. Plus it would fuck over the Bant hexproof guy out of 3rd who was chill and nice about my misplay with the Firefist striker (almost let me take it back but I said "nah you misplayed G1"), so I said no. He goes "next time I might not be so nice, I might not offer the split." ???? Didn't I just beat YOU? Bring it on, I come here to play to win.

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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri May 17, 2013 6:20 pm

[deck]
//Creatures
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Lightning Mauler

//Instants
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear

//Lands
9 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground

//Sideboard
4 Wasteland Viper
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 Mark of Mutiny
[/deck]

I'm not sure if I like this list or not.
I am sure that I do not like this list.
Okay, may I ask why? I'd love some improvement advice.
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Postby Link » Fri May 17, 2013 6:31 pm

I'll link you to the Green/R sligh deck I really liked, let me find it.

Well FIRST of all here's a Gruul sledgehammer deck that just placed:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/e ... 11syracuse

Hellkites, rancors for a good late-game, Ruric thar in the SB.

Pretty interesting.


ANYWAY:

[deck]7 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
19 lands

4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment One
1 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Slaughterhorn
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Vexing Devil
37 creatures

2 Fling
2 Revenge of the Hunted
4 other spells

Sideboard
2 Domri Rade
4 Mark of Mutiny
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Skullcrack
2 Volcanic Strength
15 sideboard cards
[/
deck]

This is teh deck I liked.

Using green gives you access to Revenge of the Hunter, a kinda underrated card.

Cut the Vexing devils obviously, don't care if it evolves experiment 1. You can throw in the rancors in that slot

But yeah its got some good ideas, using another good green creature (geist) which is better than Chainwalker in every way imo.

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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri May 17, 2013 6:43 pm

I like it. Slaughterhorn is a card I was on the fence about. Not sure how I feel about Fling, though. I've never seen it utilized well.

As far as Strangleroot Geist, well, the idea of the list was to not have any :symr: :symr: or :symg: :symg: , I believe. Makes them all work with BTE as well as keeping the mana tight. Playing :symr: turn one and :symg: turn two is a bit difficult to pull off. I'd like to cut some things for at least 2 Hellrider, though.
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Postby Link » Fri May 17, 2013 6:55 pm

Fling is actually really good with bloodrush for burst.

The fact that they can't stop it with removal is also pretty good.

I like geists because they give two bodies to put rancor on and are pretty sexy against azorius charm lists. Yuo might able to cut them for a few more firefist strikers though, or put geists in the SB alltogther

Hellrider is way too greedy in a list with green 1 drops ;P


You get a lot more cheap pump and fling finishers in place of hellrider as a finisher

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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri May 17, 2013 8:04 pm

Is having two red mana sources by turn four really that implausible with a list running thirteen red sources?
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 8:11 pm

[deck]
//Creatures
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Lightning Mauler

//Instants
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear

//Lands
9 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground

//Sideboard
4 Wasteland Viper
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 Mark of Mutiny
[/deck]

I'm not sure if I like this list or not.[/
quote]

I am sure that I do not like this list.
Okay, may I ask why? I'd love some improvement advice.
Only Gore-House Chainwalker and Flinthoof Boar evolve Experiment One to 3/3 (and Ghor-Clan Rampager comes down too late at 4cmc to be effective), you're running a red one-drop in a green-heavy one-drop slot, you're running too many land, and the sideboard is subpar.

If you're going to go green-heavy, you should definitely be running Stangleroot Geist. Flinthoof Boar should be out. You'd really only be splashing red for Ghor-Clan Rampager and Lightning Mauler and maybe even Domri Rade in the main.

[deck]
Creatures ()
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Wolfir Avenger
1 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (10)
3 Rancor
3 Domri Rade
4 Searing Spear

Lands (19)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Mountain
10 Forest[/deck]

At least here Wolfir Avenger and
an undying Strangleroot Geist trigger evolve Experiment One as well. But the whole reason to go green-heavy is for the fat creatures at the top of the curve. Take a look at my green-heavy Gruulhammer thread for what I mean.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 8:13 pm

Is having two red mana sources by turn four really that implausible with a list running thirteen red sources?
If you're not running a way to fetch them, yes. You won't be able to hit it consistently enough.
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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri May 17, 2013 10:22 pm

Alright, that list does look pretty snazzy. I'll concede.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 17, 2013 10:51 pm

Alright, that list does look pretty snazzy. I'll concede.
The more I look at it, the more I kind of like it. I really like Strangleroot Geist since he provides card advantage and you can run the full set of Rancor without fear of not hitting green mana. The only thing is that we have no Firefist Striker or Ash Zealot, but Fate wouldn't mind the latter.

I'd probably cut one Searing Spear, one Domri, and one Wolfir Avenger for two Pyreheart Wolf and one Rancor. It's not bad having multiples of Rancor in your hand when your predominantly green.
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