Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Second Harkius]

Because why be direct when you can bloviate your way to a heightened sense of self importance?

[Nai]

When admins who banned a bunch of users come and register on a new forum founded by those users with the intentions to justify their actions to said users, it really makes you wonder if those admins needed those users more than those users ever needed them. I mean, normally when people chase demons away they don't go hunting for those same demons immediately after.

Because one of the users over here specifically asked for me by name and asked a question. I thought it would be nice to answer it.

Have fun with your site, guys.

[Second Harkius]

Where was this level of directness months ago?

[Thrillho]

Nai, you are literally on a website where you can talk to me directly and I see you on AIM every day yet hilariously you have not attempted to contact me from the period before I was banned until the moment of this post, and even in your posts ITT have attempted to talk past me.

It makes your appeal here seem disingenuous at best.
edit: sarnath'd

Where was this level of directness months ago?

[Second Harkius]

Your post addressed him specifically by name so he will return to answer you.

[Nai]

Where was this level of directness months ago?

I've always been as direct as I can be.

If you're talking about Curse specifically? They asked us to say nothing. Repeatedly. Nothing about the sale, nothing about them in relation to the Gutter. Given that they were going to be the new owners, we thought it best to listen.

And Kijin, what would you like me to say to you? Before you were banned, I was about to contact you guys. I was asked by GR to let him do it instead, so I said yes. He thought the news would be better coming from him. After your banning, there was nothing for me to say.

So I'm not sure what conversation you were expecting on my part.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Wait, you admit to telling him to tell me about curses ultimatum. But didnt tell me that it was still super secret. Holy fuck Nai are you serious. And then I was banned for asking about it? Are you fucking kidding me right now? This is a fucking travesty.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Are you fuckng kidding me? Im getting unbanned right?

[Yannaria]

Nai you crazy for that one

[Mogadishu Jones]

Nai, the ultimate impossible troll.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I mean Nai, I don't know what else to tell you. You task GR with telling kpaca and kijin that the Gutter has to go, after I warned the Gutter about the impending sale to Curse and how the gutter is incompatible with their "ideals" or w/e, and then you are left wondering who might have been the misterious leak that spilled the beans with kpaca and kijin?

[Col. Khaddafi]

Oh wow double sarnath'd

[Thrillho]

Nai, you didn't contact me at all on a number of topics you just admitted you were supposed to contact me directly about, didn't think to preface that "Hey don't tell anyone else this or discuss this in public" and then proceeded to sit back while two prominent members of your community were banned and proceed to post here like there was clearly nothing you could have done after outlining the myriad things you were supposed to have done, all of which would have at least put you in the driver's seat of anything that transpired afterward if it didn't at least prevent a laundry list of long-time members from getting banned and the long, drawn-out list of negative things I listed prior from happening.

This may just be an overreach on my part to suggest this, but your choice of actions maybe should have been "anything."

[Thrillho]

Preferably ones that actually involve you interacting with the parties you sought to interact with.

[Pendulum]

Guys, shut the fuck up and stop attacking Nai. The more he talks to us, the closer we get to finding out who the fuck leaked this shit to Harkius, and that promises to be the lulziest thing ever.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Guys, shut the fuck up and stop attacking Nai. The more he talks to us, the closer we get to finding out who the fuck leaked this shit to Harkius, and that promises to be the lulziest thing ever.

Lol....wut?

[Mogadishu Jones]

Seriously though Mai, im getting unbanned right? Like what the fuck man.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Well, this debacle aside, I have to give it to Nai that at least he is willing to speak about what happened, unlike Sene, who seems to just have stopped by in order to take some cheap shots while ignoring reasonable queries about wether he thinks things could have been hadled better from staff side (seriously, I haven't seen someone so internet mad since SoronTheBeast)

Nai, I am going to assume you simply didn't connect the dots and I hope at least this helps you solve this misunderstanding. Thanks for being upfront about these matters I guess

[Col. Khaddafi]

Guys, shut the fuck up and stop attacking Nai. The more he talks to us, the closer we get to finding out who the fuck leaked this shit to Harkius, and that promises to be the lulziest thing ever.

Maybe that's why he stopped posting in salvation? He was leaked info and he knows that all the people who got leaked stuff have been stricken with the staff's orbital cannon, so he just went into clandestinity to avoid getting banned from his beloved CI forum?

[Second Harkius]

Where was this level of directness months ago?

Given that they were going to be the new owners, we thought it best to listen.

Is the sale still going on after six months or did Curse finally give it up?

Because if they gave up the sale and all of these folks are banned for leaking about a sale which ultimately didn't happen, well,

I mean if Curse is 100% for real for srs buying the site and they want the gutter gone, why is there still
a 'zombie gutter' or whatever?

[Col. Khaddafi]

Who would buy a site with such a terrible administration?

[Kaitscralt]

Nai is currently sitting at his desk trying to figure out how to answer a question honestly while avoiding earning the dislike of anybody in the universe.

[Kaitscralt]

Because, like most of the iridium, he harbors some sort of narcissistic trait wherein he cannot possibly fathom being the bad guy in a situation and will say anything to everyone to emerge from a conversation with both sides liking him.

[Kaitscralt]

* this includes blatant lying, even after he provides the chat logs that discredit his following posts

[Second Harkius]

Nai is currently sitting at his desk trying to figure out how to answer a question honestly while avoiding earning the dislike of anybody in the universe.

[( G_R )]

Topic split, posts moved to Speak Your Mind.

[( G_R )]

So Nai, was I demodded because you posted this here, or did you post this here because I was getting demodded?

[Mogadishu Jones]

Hhahahaha what a show!

[Yannaria]

"quick, I'll fuck up and fire G_R because I fucked up!"

[Kaitscralt]

I would say that GR does deserve to be demodded, but Nai absolutely needs to be as well based on the AIM logs.

[Blackhound]

Hello again Nai thankyou for your answers so far.

Before I ask a few more questions I would like to point out that I am not and never was a member of the gutter, not that I have a problem with the gutter peeps ,the gutter can call me a nigger-ass clown for all I care I get that its mostly all tounge in cheek and that none of the members are internet scumbags.

The reason I am interested is because in all my years of browsing the internet (some sites as big as salvation) I have never seen anything like this.


1, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost ... tcount=194

However, I think it's important that the staff admit that the ongoing tension with the userbase is not appearing out of a vacuum, but due to a pattern of repeated blows to the staff's reputation over the past year:

-The attempted
unilateral closure of the gutter.
-The decision to exclude regular moderators from participation in that decision.
-The exodus of numerous staff members during Rian/Viper/Sene's tenure as admin, accompanied by complaints of inappropriate behavior that the staff failed to resolve without external pressure.
-The regular moderator veto of the summit accountability measures despite a 2/3 majority of the userbase in favor, and the continuing lack of any suitable mechanism to replace them.
-The attempted institution (yet again) of new rules in WCT, and the ongoing lack of a resolution and confidence in the leadership.
-Questions regarding the handling of verbals and the rule against spam.
-The leaks of the Curse information and resulting fallout.

Certainly, the best way to handle these events is in a spirit of constructive cooperation. But equally certain is that the frequency and the magnitude of controversial judgments by the staff have markedly increased, and every new crisis has only added to the
number of frustrated and disillusioned users.

WCT is in crisis and is noticeably declining in activity as a direct result of moderator decisions. An entire subforum's worth of users, the gutter, has essentially committed mass-suicide in protest of the staff's handling of their sub. The moderation team itself has experienced considerable turmoil and fractures, and lost many capable personnel along the way.

With so many crises and frustrations following one after another, is it so hard to understand why so many among the userbase have at times lost their composure and have begun to lose their faith in the site leadership?

There are still many encouraging trends, many effective personnel, and much exaggeration and hyperbole as to the state of the staff. But the staff does need to take seriously the task of becoming more effective in responding to feedback from the userbase, successfully mediating drama, and making more intelligent and more informed decisions.


2, Is there still a GRRRR thread
in the mod lounge were mods call various users scumbags or jerks amongst other things, and do you think such a thread could spill out onto the rest of the forums ?

3, Is the curse deal dead, I will be suprized if its not dead, because if iit is not Curse have to explain as to why they asked the amins to lie to the userbase.

4, When Vip became admin, was his only job was to shut down the gutter, because he timing of his promotion and his stepping down looked like it.

@Sene, Im sure your a cool guy IRL and all, but before you say "one would think you would not use this site as an outlet for pettiness and grudges" have a good think as to why this site and this thread is here in the first place. Because to be blunt Salvation was the worst run internet forum for a good 6 months I have ever seen, thats not to say I would do a better job hell I would not be good enough for mod let alone admin. But what I would not do is blame the users for complaning to much or dogpiling because I tell you now
apart from the odd idiot or troll it really was not the userbases fault. I would infact say "ok guys I gave it a go I just aint good enough" and step down.


I took no pleasure in writing the above Sene I understand that no1 is perfect (including myself) and that every website has its hiccups, this site will probably have its hiccups. But I tell you I highly doubt this site will be run like Salvation was when Az stepped down as admin. And you/Ria were in charge.

[iamabadman]

i think sene posted this in humor because its funny we care about mtgsilly anymore.

[Pendulum]

Blackhound,
can you explain to me why the staff should concern themselves with their userbase? Why the staff should even give a damn about a bunch of banned users when they have access to a place where the "best and brightest" can congregate and discuss any topic, even those forbidden on the main forums? They certainly aren't getting paid for their efforts, so there's little reason they should care about the number of members the site gets from day to day, or any turmoil. While it is certainly possible to say that they should care because they should be good caretakers, is there really any reason they should be, especially in the face of the vitriol they face sometimes? With an absentee owner, why shouldn't they run around like children in a candy shop? They're there to have a good time too.
[/loadedassquestions]

[FaheyUSMC]

How dare you come over to another site - a site of people slighted by you - and tell them how they "should" run things. How have the temerity to come over to a forums run by people you insulted, denigrated, and shit on just to say, "You should stop badmouthing us! You guys are being mean!"

One month ago TO THE DAY, you told me that you would work on getting a Q&A session set up between myself and the other admins. You told me you would keep me apprised. You asked me not to make that information public because it would "force your hand" and if the admins decided not to go with it, you would be seen as covering things up, of not being transparent.

One month. And I have not heard a damn peep from you.

Right now, scuttlebutt is that Curse has backed off from the talks. One source inside the corporation has confirmed this is the case, because according to him:

"It's just a
huge clusterfuck. When the initial demand was made concerning that particular subforum, we expected that the moderators and other staff could handle it professionally and discreetly. We wanted this taken care of because Curse has things in place to protect sensible people. You know how it is, people are offended by the most trivial shit. What we didn't realize was that there were more leaks on that site than a fucking condom with holes poked into it. So when the information got out about what was going on, we had to back off. We had to tell them, "Oh yeah, it was just a request, it was not really an order!" We had the ability to come away looking clean in this whole thing, and what do you know? Fucked up by people. Again.

Tell me, who would want to buy a website whose community hates us for what we did? If we take it over - which is a possibility in the future, keep in mind - there's going to be some major housecleaning. The staff just cannot be allowed to remain the way it is."


You tell us what to do, but you can't even keep your own house in-line. Don't give me shit.

[Azrael]

Hello, Nai. *nods*

When admins who banned a bunch of users come and register on a new forum founded by those users with the intentions to justify their actions to said users, it really makes you wonder if those admins needed those users more than those users ever needed them. I mean, normally when people chase demons away they don't go hunting for those same demons immediately after.

Whatever else happened along the way, Nai and Sene were never the impetus for the gutter being closed down and kicked off the site, and they did fight against it. If Sene had fault in the matter, it was largely from losing the will to fight hard enough against what was happening- not for arguing to lynch the gutter in the first place.

Credit where it's due, and blame where it's due.

The iridium isn't a monolithic entity. It's been badly fractured for months, and Nai and
Sene are two of the people who have done the most, even if it amounted to precious little good for the gutter, to do the right thing. If they'd had their way, I don't think we ever would have seen things fall apart so terribly.

Right now, scuttlebutt is that Curse has backed off from the talks. One source inside the corporation has confirmed this is the case, because according to him:

"It's just a huge clusterfuck. When the initial demand was made concerning that particular subforum, we expected that the moderators and other staff could handle it professionally and discreetly. We wanted this taken care of because Curse has things in place to protect sensible people. You know how it is, people are offended by the most trivial shit. What we didn't realize was that there were more leaks on that site than a fucking condom
with holes poked into it. So when the information got out about what was going on, we had to back off. We had to tell them, "Oh yeah, it was just a request, it was not really an order!" We had the ability to come away looking clean in this whole thing, and what do you know? Fucked up by people. Again.

Tell me, who would want to buy a website whose community hates us for what we did? If we take it over - which is a possibility in the future, keep in mind - there's going to be some major housecleaning. The staff just cannot be allowed to remain the way it is."

You got a source for that quote?

I find it very fascinating that their idea of professionalism and discretion involves asking the staff to lie to thousands of people. Not to mention the condom analogy.

And they're blaming the situation falling apart on how the staff handled the issue? Seriously? They don't even want to admit how badly their own scum-baggery screwed
themselves over.

Nai, Sene, take it for whatever it's worth, but that comment seems like the kind of inexcusable idiocy that the staff and possibly Hannes should be made aware of.

[FaheyUSMC]

Right now, scuttlebutt is that Curse has backed off from the talks. One source inside the corporation has confirmed this is the case, because according to him:

"It's just a huge clusterfuck. When the initial demand was made concerning that particular subforum, we expected that the moderators and other staff could handle it professionally and discreetly. We wanted this taken care of because Curse has things in place to protect sensible people. You know how it is, people are offended by the most trivial shit. What we didn't realize was that there were more leaks on that site
than a fucking condom with holes poked into it. So when the information got out about what was going on, we had to back off. We had to tell them, "Oh yeah, it was just a request, it was not really an order!" We had the ability to come away looking clean in this whole thing, and what do you know? Fucked up by people. Again.

Tell me, who would want to buy a website whose community hates us for what we did? If we take it over - which is a possibility in the future, keep in mind - there's going to be some major housecleaning. The staff just cannot be allowed to remain the way it is."

You got a source for that quote?

I find it very fascinating that their idea of professionalism and discretion involves asking the staff to lie to thousands of people. Not to mention the condom analogy.

Not that I can provide, sorry. As bullshit as that sounds, it's kept in confidentiality.

I mean, keeping things in confidence is okay for the staff of MTGS,
right?

[Captain Murphy]

One month ago TO THE DAY, you told me that you would work on getting a Q&A session set up between myself and the other admins. You told me you would keep me apprised. You asked me not to make that information public because it would "force your hand" and if the admins decided not to go with it, you would be seen as covering things up, of not being transparent.

One month. And I have not heard a damn peep from you.

Sounds like a USMC/staff pegging chamber

[Mogadishu Jones]

Still waiting to be told Im getting unbanned.

[Azrael]

Still waiting to be told Im getting unbanned.

I've got nothing from the staff despite a double-bump and a conversation with Gals.

I don't know if that means the discussion behind closed doors is brutal, or if I'm just being ignored as a trouble-maker.

[Mogadishu Jones]

I mean im being ignored despite huge overwhelming logic and evidence supporting my unban so dont feel left out.