[Primer] Khaos's Big Red Dragons

[Khaospawn]

Here's my Big Red Fucking Dragon list, motherfuckers.

[deck=Khaos's Big Red Dragons]
Creature 23
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Burn 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Land 25
4 Mutavault
21 Mountain

Sideboard 15
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Skullcrack
3 Act of Treason
[/deck]

You guys wanna know why I built this deck? Because I want to play fucking Strombreath Dragon. I'm gonna be real: I miss Thundermaw Hellkite. I miss that card because I feel that I never had a chance to fully embrace him last year during zemanjaski's Sledgehammer heyday. Seriously. You guys remember that time? It was
great!

Strombreath Dragon is quite close to T-Maw's power level and I like that. The protection from white is very relevant, from being able to avoid Detention Spheres and Selesnya Charms to blocking Loxodon Smiters and Blood Barons – it does it all! With the current card pool, it's possible to make a reliable Aggro deck that curves out with the big dragon taking it down.

This deck represents the essence of RDW in its most simplest form by eschewing weak (but highly synergistic) cards in favor of strong standalone cards. The strategy is simple: play the beatdown role whenever possible, but be capable of playing the control role when needed.

I like this deck for its versatility. I've chosen the cards that I play for their value in the “topdeck test.” The “topdeck test” is a series of questions I ask myself when evaluating cards for any particular deck. If I drew a card while in “
topdeck mode,” would this card be able to help turn the game around for me if I was backed into a corner? Will this card push me over the edge so I can win the game?

Most of these cards lack the advantage of synergistic pieces like Emily and Firefist Striker, but make up for that in their standalone strength, utility, and versatility. For example, Ash Zealot plays a very aggressive role as an attacker, yet can throw up a shield in a pinch. Frostburn Weird walls off some critters and then becomes a 4/1 attacker (or Blood Baron blocker) when it's time to aggressive. Each card in the deck is a threat in its own right.

The Dragon deck follows a typical Sligh curve – versatile 1-Drops to apply pressure before determining which role to take in the match. Against Midrange and Control, the deck is the aggressor – play your men for max value while chopping away at the life total. Against aggro, the deck burns and blocks away attackers before going over the top for lethal. However, the deck is also made to
survive a long game; the deck gets stronger as the game progresses. Flooding out hasn't been much of an issue for me.

The manabase is at its simplest: 21 Mountains to reliably cast Reckoner on curve, and a full set of Mutavaults to punish the Control players. 25 total lands ensure that I will be able to cast my damn dragons at a reasonable turn. I get bonus points for Overloading Mizzum Mortars and making Monstrous Stormbreath Dragons.

The sideboard is simple and interchangeable, also:

Against the majority of Aggro decks, remove your 1-Drops and swap with the Reckoners and Mortars. No muss, no fuss. 14 Burn spells, Chandra, and mega-blockers Ash Zealot, Frostburn Weird, and Boros Reckoner stabilize the Battlefield for your fliers to take over.

Skullcrack is straight swap for Lightning Strike, Magma Jet, or Flames of the Firebrand in games where Lifegain is an issue. Sphinx's Revelation decks and Black-based Control decks are notorious for stabilizing off of just one decent-sized Lifegain
spell. In these types of games, Skullcrack is a direct improvement to the regular suite of Burn.

Act of Treason has been my favorite way of beating the larger Midrange decks. Against Mono Black, Strombreath Dragon usually ends up eating a Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, or Hero's Downfall. It's preferable to just be able to steal a big ole Desecration Demon and swing for lethal. Act also works pretty well against bigger, Green-based decks.

However, since the deck doesn't exactly do anything quite over the top, what exactly is the gimmick? Truth be told, it doesn't do anything at all. It's a collection of tools that are tried-and-true and capable of performing the corrects tasks. It's what you do with it that counts.

Granted, the deck didn't start out this way its current form. It's evolved along the way in the past few weeks as I've played in my local area.


The list I played just last week was this:

[deck=Last Week's Hotness]
Creatures 23
4 Rakdos Cackler
n4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Burn 10
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Land 25
3 Mutavault
22 Mountain

Sideboard 15
4 Frostburn Weird
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Skullcrack
3 Act of Treason
[/deck]

Obviously, it is almost identical to the current version. However, I found that I was siding into Frostburn Weird in almost every match! Against Mono Black, Esper, and U/W, Reckoner came out for the Weird, since it is definitely more aggressive and cheaper. Against Aggro, a set of 1-drops came out for Mr. Frosty. I concluded that since I seemed to want him in every game (the match-ups only determined which slots were traded for him), it makes sense to maindeck him. I also find that Reckoner is definitely needed in the 75, but he just always isn't good in the main. Another switch was moving the maindeck Mortars to to the board. White Weenie and Mono
Red has seen a resurgence in my meta, so it does make sense to just maindeck the Flames of the Firebrand I had saved in my board.

In the end, guys, I'm just playing the cards that I want to play and know how to play. Nobody on any given website is going to hand you a perfect 75 that's going to fit your meta. No way in hell is that going to happen. I'm not even trying to convince you to play this at your local FNM. What I'm trying to show everybody is that it is possible to play something that doesn't follow what the herd is doing and achieve some sort of success (although it helps to define what your “success” actually is – for example, mine is to just win wherever I go and it's working). There just has to be more than 4 or 5 types of Red decks at the moment – Turtenwald Sligh, Zemanjaski PyroRed (and Walter White variants),
Devotion Red (large and small), and R/w Aggro. I know that some of you guys out there have felt this too. I've seen a lot of decklists from everyone here that look like they're between 2 different archetypes. Mogi lists forcing Stormbreath? Hammer and Stormbreath in the same maindeck? These are just a few examples, but overall, I know that a lot of you are indecisive and aren't trusting your instincts because of this intangible, crazy feeling that something just isn't right about your deck.

And make no mistake, I'm am definitely not trying to slam my fellow redbros. I'm only talking about this because I have been in this spot many, many times before. In the past, I usually just waited until a list just seemingly fell from the sky, developed from my favorite pro, and then I tweaked it for my meta. Now, I trust my instincts. I play what I want to play
because I know what I want to do. I want something simple, yet powerful. I have found something that I already love to play since States, and consequently, I've been having even more fun with this game.

Anyways, guys, thanks for giving me this chance to somewhat vent and show off my new toy at the same time. As always, I appreciate everyone's criticism, advice, and suggestions. And if I can elaborate any further on any particular card choice, slot, or topic, feel free to ask.

[Tyrael]

What are your thoughts on the fanatic? Would he be able to fit into your 60/75 somewhere? (I just love that card)

Anyways, great write-up!

[Khaospawn]

What are your thoughts on the fanatic? Would he be able to fit into your 60/75 somewhere? (I just love that card)

Anyways, great write-up!

Thanks!

I like the Fanatic. I really do. There' nothing better than windmill slamming a Fanatic on the table and shouting, "MOGIS!" at the top of my lungs for like, 7 damage or something (true story, by the way). In fact, as my deck progressed, I thought about bringing him back into the sideboard when MDU was trying it out as a board option to defeat the durdly decks. However, in my build, it demands that I play Boros Reckoner maindeck AND I not encounter too many control decks with Supreme Verdict. Almost half my meta right now is U/W, strangely enough, and the deck needed more standalone
cards that provide some *UMPH!*, if you know what I'm saying. I miss the Fanatic, but the deck hasn't missed him, if that makes any sense.

[zemanjaski]

Love the deck list and really like the reasoning. I think the most important choice is always finding a deck that works for you and suits your style.

Approve of 75/75 cards though there's room to debate whether you want any Burning Earth or Hammer of Purphoros in the board.

[Yarpus]

Hammer doesn't fit the decklist, even in SB.
Burning Earth is not so hot.
I'd swap Acts for Traitorous Instincts.

[Tyrael]

What are your thoughts on the fanatic? Would he be able to fit into your 60/75 somewhere? (I just love that card)

Anyways, great write-up!

Thanks!

I like the Fanatic. I really do. There' nothing better than windmill slamming a Fanatic on the table and shouting, "MOGIS!" at the top of my lungs for like, 7 damage or something (true story, by the way). In fact, as my deck progressed, I thought about bringing him back into the sideboard when MDU was trying it out as a board option to defeat the durdly decks. However, in my build, it demands that I play Boros Reckoner
maindeck AND I not encounter too many control decks with Supreme Verdict. Almost half my meta right now is U/W, strangely enough, and the deck needed more standalone cards that provide some *UMPH!*, if you know what I'm saying. I miss the Fanatic, but the deck hasn't missed him, if that makes any sense.

Yeah I completely understand your reasoning. I'll just keep running my janky devotion red deck until I can afford dragons and chandra then, at least I can still get insane blowouts with BTE and Fanatic .

Oh and I would love to read some of your match reports in the near future .

[Khaospawn]

Love the deck list and really like the reasoning. I think the most important choice is always finding a deck that works for you and suits your style.

Approve of 75/75 cards though there's room to debate whether you want any Burning Earth or Hammer of Purphoros in the board.

Thank you, James. I really appreciate that.

Burning Earth has been on my mind lately for a couple of reasons: most of the U/W players in my store have been talking about adding a 3rd color, for either Esper or...American (dude, I know...just...I know). And while Dega has been completely phased out, I would not at all be surprised if that Brad Nelson Naya deck rears its head on
Friday. If anything, I'd probably play 2 and maybe cut a Mortars and a Skullcrack if I felt the need to run it.

I keep asking myself if I want a singleton Hammer in my board, but I think that's more of a "head" thing than a "gut" thing. Like, it just makes sense to play it with all that land, right? More stuff to ponder, I suppose.

[Khaospawn]

What are your thoughts on the fanatic? Would he be able to fit into your 60/75 somewhere? (I just love that card)

Anyways, great write-up!

Thanks!

I like the Fanatic. I really do. There' nothing better than windmill slamming a Fanatic on the table and shouting, "MOGIS!" at the top of my lungs for like, 7 damage or something (true story, by the way). In fact, as my deck progressed, I thought about
bringing him back into the sideboard when MDU was trying it out as a board option to defeat the durdly decks. However, in my build, it demands that I play Boros Reckoner maindeck AND I not encounter too many control decks with Supreme Verdict. Almost half my meta right now is U/W, strangely enough, and the deck needed more standalone cards that provide some *UMPH!*, if you know what I'm saying. I miss the Fanatic, but the deck hasn't missed him, if that makes any sense.

Yeah I completely understand your reasoning. I'll just keep running my janky devotion red deck until I can afford dragons and chandra then, at least I can still get insane blowouts with BTE and Fanatic .

Oh and I would love to read some of your match reports in the near future .

I suppose I could start keeping a log throughout the
season as I go. I've been using the same notepad for all my sanctioned games since the season started, so I could always go back and add that. Truth be told, I'm kind of over writing lengthy tournament reports, but doing something in the vein of my States report may work (each match only had a descriptive sentence or two about it).

Granted, adding up my games won't be anywhere near as impressive as the MTGO grinders on our site, but keeping track of everything will only help me grow as a player.

Thanks for the idea.

[Khaospawn]

Hammer doesn't fit the decklist, even in SB.
Burning Earth is not so hot.
I'd swap Acts for Traitorous Instincts.

Point 1: Agreed

Point 2: Slightly disagree. It's only not hot when the majority of the decks are running single and dual colors. It may not be good today, but in a few weeks? Next set even? It's only as good as the overall meta lets it be.

Point 3: I actually love Traitorous Instinct. I played it up until last week. Reason for the switch was because I actually got stuck on 3 land and barely closed out a game against an Obzedat and Desecration Demon. I have been gripping the card since my first draw but I was getting squeezed on land. Since then, I decided to go with the cheaper alternative.

[DroppinSuga]

If I had the cards, this is the exact deck I would be playing.

[zemanjaski]

It's easy for grinders, mtgo saves your games for us.

[Khaospawn]

It's easy for grinders, mtgo saves your games for us.

I know, man. It's like, screw writing it up! I'll just show you!



Which reminds me, if nobody here has watched any of MDU's games on YouTube, do it! I was drinking with a buddy of mine Monday night and we discussed Z's PyroRed deck (he happened to read the Silvestri article and remembered that I talked about an Aussie with a strange "Z' name). Since MDU plays the Walter White version (my friend is also an avid Breaking Bad fan), I decided to tour YouTube, show him MDU's games, and hopefully my buddy would understand the deck a little bit better than what my drunken rambling would've given him. For one, let me just say, MDU is a great technical player. Two, dat
fucking music. I dunno if he plays the crazy dramatic symphony for every match, but this was hilarious. It featured him fucking raping the snot out of some Esper player (well, to be fair, it did go to 3 games). But the best part of it was how the crazy, Star Wars-esque music seemed to synch up perfectly with each play. Not only was I thoroughly entertained, but I also learned some stuff.

Man, I really need to get a new computer and start streaming.

[DocLawless]

This may be the deck that adds the ass that I thought was missing from the Pyro list. I dig Pyro, don't get me wrong, but I miss the hell out of Thundermaw and I like explosions. I'm sleeving up an idea to try out tonight. Will post a list if it goes well. Or even if it doesn't.

[magicdownunder]

It's easy for grinders, mtgo saves your games for us.

Assuming your playing DEs or your Opp. or yourself don't concede early. (if you check your replay folder you'll notice its jerky like that)

[Khaospawn]

This may be the deck that adds the ass that I thought was missing from the Pyro list. I dig Pyro, don't get me wrong, but I miss the hell out of Thundermaw and I like explosions. I'm sleeving up an idea to try out tonight. Will post a list if it goes well. Or even if it doesn't.

Looking forward to seeing it.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah they've needed to fix that replay bug for years

[LP, of the Fires]

I think you should take a lesson from mono-blue and include 1 nykthos in your deck, either main or side. The downside is it doesn't do anything but add mana. The upside is that it wins the game. As we know, I like stretching my manabases as far as is reasonable, and I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

I'm also curios as to how valuable the threatens are in your sideboard. I don't think they're necessarily bad, I just think you can do some number of cutting 1, switching to traitorous instinct(granted, you've probably tested this since I ALWAYS suggest it), or otherwise experiment with the slots. Since you have the ability to just go over the top of people, I guess I imagine you can find something more powerful/versatile in that slot, but then again, I haven't played the deck and am just spitballing.

[DocLawless]

Very happy with this deck so far. Went for about 12 rounds, just me and two friends at the kitchen table. One playing BUG control the other UW enchantment aggro. Both are rogue decks around here so I didn't learn much about how I'd play the meta, but I did only lose twice; once I got land screwed (on 25 lands, too) and the second time BUG controlled the shit out of me. Both of those things are bound to happen, though, so I'm still feeling good, in particular because the BUG player has, thus far this season, been undefeated at FNM. I busted his chops 5-1. And we didn't even have sideboards.

First list was sloppy. I built it knowing a control deck was coming over, and that the UW deck has at least two copies of Rev, so I'd never make this list my main 60. I just wanted to swing my dick to let 'em know what's up.

[deck]
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Chandra's Phoenix
2
Ember Swallower
2 Stormbreath Dragon

4 Lightning Strike
3 Skullcrack
3 Dragon Mantle
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

21 Mountains
4 Mutavault
[/deck]

I loaned my Reckoners to a buddy, so I didn't get to play them in this list, otherwise I'd have had them in vs. the aggro deck. But today I learned that Dragon Mantle is a fair enough sub for Stonewright. 1) It's a mana sink that can kill, which jives with RDW theory, 2) if you're running a Mogis list, it adds to Devotion, and 3) it fucking replaces itself. I also taught the UW player to beware Skullcrack. I can short circuit your Revelation. I can play around indestructible. You take three and I get a Phoenix back. He didn't know what it did.
Bananas, I tell you!

There was usually a Hero's Downfall ready for Chandra, but not before I get an activation off. And FB Weird is great for forcing them to
play removal at a less than optimal time. Which amounts to very optimal for us. As I played I noticed I kept wishing I had burn in hand. Not sure if that's a thing or I'm just impatient. Regardless, this fits my play style pretty well. Additionally, few things are sweeter than being Thoughtseized with only 2 Mountains in hand.

Maybe the best thing about this list, though, is no matter what the board state, whatever I drew was something I wanted to draw. In fact, even on 24 to 25 lands, I found myself wishing I would draw a Mountain because you know what Stormbreath and Ember Swallower need? To go monstrous.

Maybe 1x Nykthos. Potential, but uncertain. Will test.

I further tweaked the list as we played, and by the end of the night this is what I had. Kaos... there's Green in it. Hear me out god damn it.

[deck]
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Ember Swallower
2 Stormbreath Dragon

n4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Magma Jet
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

15 Mountains
4 Stomping Ground
2 Temple of Abandon
3 Mutavault
[/deck]

Credit to LP for putting that thought in my brain.

All the splash color lands tap for red too, so I'm not losing tempo for a splash. Had to cut back on the Mutavaults for it, but 3x is still acceptable. I may not stick to this splash, but bloodrushing with a Ghor-Clan Rampager is the stone cold nuts. Turn 1, Mountain, Cackler unleashed, pass. Turn 2, Mountain, Ash Zealot, swing 4, pass. Turn three, Stomping Ground untapped, Satyr, Bloodrush Cackler, swing 8. Opponent is on the clock before his third land drop. Turn 4, Mountain, Magma Jet, leave a Strike and a Mountain on top, pump Satyr, swing 7. GG. (Stormbreath in hand.)

Those are actual play notes.

Only two Temples, and unless I keep a three land hand and draw both as my next two land draws I can play around them coming in tapped. I still do feel.
.. awkward about it. Four shocks and two CIPT lands just for 3x Rampagers. The jury is still out on whether that's worth it or not. Or, alternately, enough Green to support it. It only became relevant twice, and I had a green source on the board both times, so who knows?

Future changes:
-2 Ember Swallowers, +1 Stormbreath Dragon, +1 Magma Jet. Just have to get a third mouthbreather.

[LP, of the Fires]

While ghor-clan is indeed the nut, I've come to the conclusion that you'd rather be base green and enjoy having superior curve quality then playing red dudes and adding the donkey for reach.

Red's power comes from consistency and speed. Not saying you can't play taplands in your red deck, but if you are, playing them for other "fast spells" is counterintuitive. See walter white splashing white for control cards.

The exception is Rakdos because you're a mostly black deck that's splashing for broken black cards like thoughtseize out of the board, and exava, jester, and Mogis in the main.

Back to Khaos's Deck, this is where I'm at:

[deck=LP's Stolen Dragons]
Creature 23
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Burn 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Flames of the Firebrand

nLand 25
4 Mutavault
21 Mountain

Sideboard 15
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason
1 Nykthos
1 Hammer of Purphoros
[/deck]

Looking to add another Stormbreath dragon to the deck and I've been indifferent to underwhelmed by the Flames, but then again, I haven't drawn them and I haven't played against WW yet. Seeing as I changed the deck haphazardly with out examining deeply how it affects board plans, I'm sure there's kinks that need to be worked out, but overall, I'm happy with the nykthos and the hammer. I'll likely just cut a mountain from the main for the nykthos and have a sideboard slot to play with. Probably the 4th dragon as that and the act of treason which it would be replacing are good in the same matchups(midrange decks).

[DocLawless]

Consistency! That's what felt awkward about it. Green splash lowered the consistency. Like those 3 GCRs turned it into a less than optimal Gruul deck. Like your foot's in the door of G/R monsters or Fate's ragehammer list and you may as well just go in.

Sideboard options: My meta is supposedly heavy on three-color control decks, but there's been a GP since then and I may very well walk into a room full of Boros and Rakdos decks on Friday. Still no strong showings of MBD, and no MUD decks to be seen at all.

[deck]Not Land
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Ember Swallower

2 Chandra, Pyromaster

4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock

Land
4 Mutavault
20 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason
3 Burning Earth[/deck]

I am
unclear on the optimal number of BE's to run.

[Khaospawn]

LP,
I actually like putting Nykthos into the deck. The problem for me is is that I want to maindeck it. So, my options are to either cut a Mountain for it, which probably isn't a good idea, or cut a Mutavault, which would be OK, I guess.

However, a third option presents itself: Remove 2 pieces of Burn, and I'd pick the Flames of the Firebrand for this, and add a 4th Dragon and Nykthos as the 26th land.

I'd definitely like to test that before I unleash it upon the masses.


Doc,
First off, sounds like your testing went pretty well. I also like the substitutions you had to make for your current deck. However, there's something that I always remember Z saying - "Shock is always a good card, except for when it isn't." Basically, it's good when it's good and really bad when its bad. The
deck doesn't play Young Pyromancer, which improves Shock's value, so I'm wondering if maybe Flames of the Firebrand would be a better choice. It does kill Nightveil Specters, which is pretty important nowadays.

As for Burning Earth, I always felt comfortable with 2. Patrick Sullivan had said something last season about how he likes to only play 2 because it was good when you're ahead against decks like Jund (at the time), but pretty mediocre when you're behind. So he played a 2/2 split of Burning Earth and Mark of Mutiny, the latter was used for when he was behind in the game. That stuck with me. Besides, with all the Scrying and Chandra draws, being able to find 1 of 2 Burning Earths shouldn't be that hard. And also, against the decks that we side Burning Earth in for, landing a single copy on the table is usually enough to end it for them anway.

[redthirst]

Your first list looks like my current mono red list except:
-2 Flames, -1 Phoenix, -1 Muta; +1 Chandra, +3 Reckoner

It runs smooth.

[DocLawless]

Yeah, maybe you're right. Shock is just a go-to burn spell in lieu of knowing exactly what I want. I figured sending 2 upstairs for 1 mana is more efficient than 3 damage for 3. But Nightveil is a prick...

Screw it, I'll run FoF and come what may on Friday.


EDIT: Or, since WW and RDW aren't huge around here, I can run Annihilating Fire. As long as I'm paying 3 for 3 damage I may as well keep them from Whipping the NVS back.

EDIT 2: Actually, no. Flames is a better call.

[Khaospawn]

Your first list looks like my current mono red list except:
-2 Flames, -1 Phoenix, -1 Muta; +1 Chandra, +3 Reckoner

It runs smooth.

Yeah, I remember about a month and a half ago back when we were throwing around lists in the Purity of Fire thread. You hated the thought of running 8 3-Drops. Can't say I blame you there, but the deck does run pretty smooth.

[Link]

I think burning earth is the way to go, but I definitely see why the threatens are there. I wouldn't want to fold everytime a mono B player slams a demon (and they ALWAYS have fucking 2 of them)

[Elricity]

I also taught the UW player to beware Skullcrack. [...]. I can play around indestructible.

I got confused on part but the rest sounded great. What does u/w have that's indestructible and how does skullcrack help vs that?

[DocLawless]

I also taught the UW player to beware Skullcrack. [...]. I can play around indestructible.

I got confused on part but the rest sounded great. What does u/w have that's indestructible and how does skullcrack help vs that?

Heliod. Not sure why he was playing Heliod, but there he was.

Skullcrack actually doesn't interact with Indestructible. The BUG player is a judge and he claimed the "Damage can't be prevented this turn" part in Skullcrack's wording negated Indestructible like it would negate Protection, but I've since then learned that is not the case.
Indestructible doesn't prevent damage, it just prevents something from being destroyed from damage.

[rcwraspy]

I also taught the UW player to beware Skullcrack. [...]. I can play around indestructible.

I got confused on part but the rest sounded great. What does u/w have that's indestructible and how does skullcrack help vs that?

Doc will have to tell you what actually happened, but I'd imagine it was a reference to a God - Thassa, likely.

Skullcrack says that damage can't be prevented. Indestructible says that all damage that would be done to it is prevented. Therefore Skullcrack can bypass indestructible.

FYI, if Master of Waves is blocking one of your red
creatures, the Skullcrack trick works there as well.

EDIT: Nath'd, and corrected too it seems.

[DocLawless]

I also taught the UW player to beware Skullcrack. [...]. I can play around indestructible.

I got confused on part but the rest sounded great. What does u/w have that's indestructible and how does skullcrack help vs that?

Doc will have to tell you what actually happened, but I'd imagine it was a reference to a God - Thassa, likely.

Skullcrack says that damage can't be prevented. Indestructible says that all
damage that would be done to it is prevented. Therefore Skullcrack can bypass indestructible.

FYI, if Master of Waves is blocking one of your red creatures, the Skullcrack trick works there as well.

EDIT: Nath'd, and corrected too it seems.

Yeah, and I was hoping I'd stumbled on to something there.

Maybe I just really want Skullcrack to suck in fewer circumstances.

[rcwraspy]

For reference:

702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant.

Doc's latest posting is correct. Damage always accumulates on a creature with Indestructible, regardless of Skullcrack or not. It just won't be destroyed by lethal damage or effects that say "destroy". Skullcrack does not interact with that.

[DocLawless]

I may have a trade locked up for a Nykthos, and I just traded into a fourth FNM promo Rakdos Cackler. So there's that.

[magicdownunder]

I'm thinking about trying this list (but splashing white) since my TimeZone meta game is lacking in the black department (not getting much value from YP$) I wanted to ask how important is Frostburn Weird?

If I cut him for more burn would that effect the deck's integrity, also two MD Flames of the Firebrand and four Mutavault WITH a big fucking dragon really sold me on this deck, well done .

[DocLawless]

I really like Weird. He blocks for 4 and can sink mana to swing for 4 as well. I think sacrificing half of your 2-drop creatures will really put you behind the curve.

[Khaospawn]

I'm thinking about trying this list (but splashing white) since my TimeZone meta game is lacking in the black department (not getting much value from YP$) I wanted to ask how important is Frostburn Weird?

If I cut him for more burn would that effect the deck's integrity, also two MD Flames of the Firebrand and four Mutavault WITH a big fucking dragon really sold me on this deck, well done .

Thanks, MDU.

Re: Frostburn Weird

To be honest, the fact that I've given him a full four slots in the maindeck
is just surprising. He only started out as a 2-of in my board, even when I was playing the Devotion/Mogis deck. He just always seems to have his uses:

- His big ass can stop the hurt from an aggressive opponent.
- He walls off the ground as early as Turn 2, allowing you to start jamming Phoenixes relentlessly
- He's a natural mana sink.
- He's good at almost any point in the game.
- He can pump to kill Blood Baron, Gray Merchant, and other Frostburn Weirds.
- Against Supreme Verdict decks, you can comfortably sit back and jam him sideways for 4 damage each turn until he's finally dealt with

I found that I wanted him over Reckoner in the Mono Black and Verdict decks. I also want him in the deck against other aggressive decks, like G/W, Mono Red, Mono Blue, and WW, and then I'd supplement him further with a Reckoner.

All in all, I found him to be strong. He doesn't need any other cards to make him good.

I'm not sure how the deck would function if Frostburn was just replaced with Burn. I
certainly don't think Shock would be suitable for replacing him. Quite possibly, Mortars would be decent enough, but I never liked playing more than 2 maindeck. Annihilating Fire, maybe?

I think that if more burn was added, Young Pyromancer would have to be considered....at which point, the deck starts to shift into PyroRed territory.

[magicdownunder]

I'm thinking about trying this list (but splashing white) since my TimeZone meta game is lacking in the black department (not getting much value from YP$) I wanted to ask how important is Frostburn Weird?

If I cut him for more burn would that effect the deck's integrity, also two MD Flames of the Firebrand and four Mutavault WITH a big fucking dragon really sold me on this deck, well done .

Thanks, MDU.

Re: Frostburn Weird

To be honest, the fact that I've given him a full four slots in the maindeck is just surprising. He only started out as a 2-of in my board, even when I was playing the Devotion/Mogis deck. He just always seems to have his uses:

- His big ass can stop the hurt from an aggressive opponent.
- He walls off the ground as early as Turn 2, allowing you to start jamming Phoenixes relentlessly
- He's a natural mana sink.
- He's good at almost any point in the game.
- He can pump to kill Blood Baron, Gray Merchant, and other Frostburn Weirds.
- Against Supreme Verdict decks, you can comfortably sit back and jam him sideways for 4 damage each turn until he's finally dealt with

I found that I wanted him over Reckoner in the Mono Black and Verdict decks. I also want him in the deck against other aggressive decks, like G/W, Mono Red, Mono Blue, and WW, and then I'd supplement him further with a Reckoner.

All in all,
I found him to be strong. He doesn't need any other cards to make him good.

I'm not sure how the deck would function if Frostburn was just replaced with Burn. I certainly don't think Shock would be suitable for replacing him. Quite possibly, Mortars would be decent enough, but I never liked playing more than 2 maindeck. Annihilating Fire, maybe?

I think that if more burn was added, Young Pyromancer would have to be considered....at which point, the deck starts to shift into PyroRed territory.

Cheers Doc and Khaospawn, last question - how is the MonoBlack MU? I've always thought that Young Pyromancer was one of key elements in winning that MU, is [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] + Chandra, Pyromaster really enough to close the deal? Has having another reoccurer ever crossed your mind like Pyrewild Shaman for example?

I still have time before crunch day (mocs11), so
I may put this deck together tonight and go for a swing.

[Khaospawn]

I'm thinking about trying this list (but splashing white) since my TimeZone meta game is lacking in the black department (not getting much value from YP$) I wanted to ask how important is Frostburn Weird?

If I cut him for more burn would that effect the deck's integrity, also two MD Flames of the Firebrand and four Mutavault WITH a big fucking dragon really sold me on this deck,
well done .

Thanks, MDU.

Re: Frostburn Weird

To be honest, the fact that I've given him a full four slots in the maindeck is just surprising. He only started out as a 2-of in my board, even when I was playing the Devotion/Mogis deck. He just always seems to have his uses:

- His big ass can stop the hurt from an aggressive opponent.
- He walls off the ground as early as Turn 2, allowing you to start jamming Phoenixes relentlessly
- He's a natural mana sink.
- He's good at almost any point in the game.
- He can pump to kill Blood Baron, Gray Merchant, and other Frostburn Weirds.
- Against Supreme Verdict decks, you can comfortably sit back and jam him sideways for 4 damage each turn until he's finally dealt with

I found that I wanted him over Reckoner in the Mono Black and
Verdict decks. I also want him in the deck against other aggressive decks, like G/W, Mono Red, Mono Blue, and WW, and then I'd supplement him further with a Reckoner.

All in all, I found him to be strong. He doesn't need any other cards to make him good.

I'm not sure how the deck would function if Frostburn was just replaced with Burn. I certainly don't think Shock would be suitable for replacing him. Quite possibly, Mortars would be decent enough, but I never liked playing more than 2 maindeck. Annihilating Fire, maybe?

I think that if more burn was added, Young Pyromancer would have to be considered....at which point, the deck starts to shift into PyroRed territory.

Cheers Doc and Khaospawn, last question - how is the MonoBlack MU? I've always thought that Young Pyromancer was one of key elements in winning that MU, is [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] + Chandra, Pyromaster really enough to
close the deal? Has having another reoccurer ever crossed your mind like Pyrewild Shaman for example?

I still have time before crunch day (mocs11), so I may put this deck together tonight and go for a swing.

Not trying to sound cocky, but I haven't lost to one yet. But then again, I've only played about 7-8 games matches against it.

I've always beaten the deck just being really aggressive. Sometimes the Dragons get there, sometimes they die on the attack, and other times they just clog your hand. That's why I moved down from a full set to just 3. Getting the Chandra + Phoenix thing going is good, but it doesn't last long. At some point, you just have to close out the game quickly because that Gray Merchant or a Whip will push it out of reach for you. Reckoner maindeck actually slowed me down and I found myself trading it out for Frostburn Weird, which can pump to kill Specters and Merchants. Skullcrack and Act of Treason coming out from the board
are huge. Come to think of it, I think I've won every single Game 2 or 3 in the Mono Black match-up due to Traitorous Instinct/Act of Treason.

[Khaospawn]

Also, Pyrewild did cross my mind when yarpus brought it up for the 10th time this month (love ya, yarpus. ). I think a 1-of couldn't hurt, but I would really want more creatures in the deck to fully take advantage of it.

[DocLawless]

I haven't played vs MBD yet, but I imagine I'd fight them like I fight mirror decks. Try to trade as aggressively as possible to keep their Devotion down until I get a window to finish it off. The advantage I see in MDU over another deck that gains life, like UW or Esper with Sphinx's Revelation, is mono-black has absolutely no answer for Skullcrack. The Nightveils and Cloudfin Raptors are worrisome, being as they're bodies that fly, but with 3 main Flames you'll have 7 fast answers for Specter and 4 more for Cloudfin if you get to it before it evolves bigger than you can burn it for. If you hold on to those spells knowing they're going to cast those creatures, what do they have on the ground? Gary, Pack Rat, LBZ and/or Mutavault, all of which we can match, outmatch or Act of Treason.

Pyrewild Shaman is a consideration, but Dragon Mantle is higher on my list of things to test out. It fits the theme (which I am a
sucker for) and as a mana sink I feel like I get a higher return from the mana I spend on it in terms of damage it can deal to the opponent.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Kaos @ MBD match-ups, but it's good to have validation on how I pictured the match going down.

EDIT 2: I was thinking mono-U's fliers when I posted this. Not sure why. Never mind @ Cloudfin Raptor.

[Yarpus]

Hammer would be good for this deck, right?
Without Stormbreath Dragons.
What about Scourge of Valkas then? Built-in firebreathing and pings are pretty damn cool.
Oh, and your devotion is even better.

Or just play them as Stormbreath 5-6.
Or just fuck that and go Chaos Imps.
Once you go Chaos Imps, you never go back.

[LP, of the Fires]

Mono-black should be easy. You play 1 drops.

/matchup.

No seriously, just fucking kill them with your aggressive shit. They don't have any sweepers so it's not like you even have to worry about overcommitting.

And yeah khaos, nykthos main. I just cut a mountain since if you have 3 red mana symbols on board, your nykthos is a mountain, and realistically, the only card who's consistency it screws up is Reckoner, and this is made up by the fact that it lets you get a free 2/3 mana in some games which is as awesome as it sounds.