[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Wraith223]

Check out the top 8 player profiles at GP Dallas:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... /welcome#2

Especially the headgear of the last dude...

There is part of the reason why gals are not seen in many top 8's. The head gear kind of hurt to look at.[/quote:
b60dnbko]

I don't know...seemed to work well for Z...

Your shittin me! Where is his man card. Got to cut a corner off then.

[Nuwen]

@Nuwen

I understand that men are evil and icky or [insert feminist nonsense here] but why would you describe Hasbro as misogynist, the literal definition meaning "a person who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats women"? How can an inanimate object hate anything, and what about a little girl playing house indicates that hatred is involved?

Hasbro reinforces a pretty artificial gender binary. You're a thinkin' dude - consider the narrative that their toys impart on kids from an early age. Can you really say the flagship for Barbie ISN'T misogynist?

I consider any company that plays into the gender binary to be inherently misogynist, because they control how people behave around each other with divide & conquer tactics.
Companies who sell along gender lines tell us Men are Men and Women are Women and never the two shall meet... here's a product specially tailored to meet your ManMan needs! I don't like giving these companies my money, because I believe they'll continue to shape culture in any way that sells more of their products. Consider, for example, why more toys aren't obviously unisex - what if you didn't have to buy separate fleets of products for a boy child and a girl child in the same household?

It's been proven that people who are uncomfortable, anxious, insecure, neurotic are more likely to buy a product that immediately assuages those emotions. No surprise that a lot of companies build-in complex insecurity campaigns as a marketing strategy.

[Nuwen]

Also, men aren't icky obv. The stuff telling you men and women are IRREPARABLY DIFFERENT CANNOT COMPUTE is the enemy, not men. There are plenty of awful consequences of gender binary that affect men too - do you hug people often? Less often than one of your average women friends? Why might that be; all primates are hard-coded to express themselves physically. There's a strong preference for community & relationship-building shit in our makeup...

... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public? You don't think that image is something seized & proliferated by companies trying to sell you Comfort In a Bottle?

[Wraith223]

@Nuwen

I understand that men are evil and icky or [insert feminist nonsense here] but why would you describe Hasbro as misogynist, the literal definition meaning "a person who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats women"? How can an inanimate object hate anything, and what about a little girl playing house indicates that hatred is involved?

Hasbro reinforces a pretty artificial gender binary. You're a thinkin' dude - consider the narrative that their toys impart on kids from an early age. Can you really say the flagship for Barbie ISN'T misogynist?

I
consider any company that plays into the gender binary to be inherently misogynist, because they control how people behave around each other with divide & conquer tactics. Companies who sell along gender lines tell us Men are Men and Women are Women and never the two shall meet... here's a product specially tailored to meet your ManMan needs! I don't like giving these companies my money, because I believe they'll continue to shape culture in any way that sells more of their products. Consider, for example, why more toys aren't obviously unisex - what if you didn't have to buy separate fleets of products for a boy child and a girl child in the same household?

It's been proven that people who are uncomfortable, anxious, insecure, neurotic are more likely to buy a product that immediately assuages those emotions. No surprise that a lot of companies build-in complex insecurity campaigns as a marketing strategy.

By that rational, so does bathroom product, makeup, certain liquors,
and political commercials. Also, many cultures separate everything in masculine and feminine terms (Spanish/Mexican in Texas commercials). How do you get around that? I am not interested in arguing a point as I agree with you in the clear divide seen in children's commercials and products. What would be your "acceptable" world? Unisex toys are hard to sell when the TV has cartoons and shows made to sell toys to specific genders, races, religions, and countries. Toys are big business.

Guys holding hands...you might be overthinking it or have another close issue in mind. Keep going. You are fleshing out a good issue.

[Platypus]

You speak the truth Nuwen.

I can't really comment right now, because I'm on my phone and it's late. When it comes to imagery in Magic there's still much to do, since there's still lots of downright sexist imagery. Stuff like the reprint of Skyknight Legionnaire and Disciple of the Old Ways.

[TubeHunter]

[deck]
Creatures (2)

2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)

5 Island
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
Spells (33)

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Moat
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Future Sight
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
2 Swan Song
1 Vendilion Clique
[/deck]

This deck is awesome. If I was to pick any legacy deck to play for a tournament, I would pick this one. I love it.

If only it didn't cost an actual fortune.

[DarthStabber]

@nuwen; You have some very valid points, but the gender binary is not completely artificial, grossly exaggerated for sure, but not completely artificial. I agree that marketing behind a lot of girls toys is insulting, sometimes in the extreme, and the better course of action would be to just make toys and market them generically, however corporations aren't doing the marketing and toys they are because they hate women, they are doing what they are doing because it works, for the most part. I highly doubt that most corporations give a shit about gender at all, the almighty dollar comes before any other ideology, long before. They are missing opportunities to do better, but they aren't missing them due to hating on women, they are missing them because they are stuck in certain business pattern that has made them filthy rich. Women's money is just as good as men's, they just don't want to bother with the risk when the
current model works. And Hasbro's my little pony reboot is probably the best marketing outreach aimed at girls we have seen in some time, to the point where it's appeal is almost independent of gender. I'm no brony, but I will admit that the show is actually decent, and I watched the first two seasons and enjoyed them fairly thoroughly.

Also the expectations and body image issues kinda cut both ways. Women are stereotypically more affected, but men are becoming more and more affected as time goes on.

[DocLawless]

This deck is awesome. If I was to pick any legacy deck to play for a tournament, I would pick this one. I love it.

If only it didn't cost an actual fortune.

$2,082.33 in near mint to lightly played condition to be exact, according to TCGPlayer's cart optimizer. I'd rather have the car that money would be a down payment on, to be honest.

It is a sexy list, though.

[zemanjaski]

Talking points now that I am semi-lucid:

Nuwen
2. Monkey See, Monkey Want Do - It isn't hard to find an iconic pro that you personally identify with as a male. Zem lights all our hearts by being a zesty critical thinker, for example. Think about how many people at your FNM events model not only their decks, but their ENTIRE approach to the game in the vein of pro talking heads. There isn't a diverse-enough spread of chicks writing for the general audience (yet?). The ones that do write are going to be scrutinized as gender representatives, which is a tall order to fit while trying to focus on a difficult game.

Potential candidates do not have a model to follow.

This x1000. Well beyond magic, society as a whole has enormous problems giving and reinforcing women positive role models. My stance on the hero-worship in MTG is well documented elsewhere, but it
is obvious how galvanizing an effect the male pros have on the community - people actively look forward to "new kibler deck", get excited to play it etc etc. Or they want to brew like Conley; think like LSV; tear people down like Zem etc.

FWIW I have a lot of time for Melissa and Jackie; my interactions with them have so far been substantially more positive than most male pros (looking at you Brad Nelson and Travis Woo).

Nuwen
3. Women with the skill sets favored my Magic can be doing... a LOT of other stuff, just like STEM candidates. Why would they elbow through a frontier when so many other rewarding activities are already more accessible?

Pretty much. There is still a substantial disparity between the number of women with the right skillset to succeed in the game and the number of men who have it, and there is no easy solution. You think it is bad in magic? Look at chess. Like holy shit. The women GMs are honestly, really,
really, really bad compared to the men* and it has nothing to do with intelligence or inherent capability. The men have more attention, funding and training from a young age, and surprise surprise, it makes all the difference.

The same applies in magic. Most strong magic players have been playing different games for a long fucking time. I am in my 11th year of being a semi-pro gamer (I am 25). That's how much experience I bring in to any game that I play now and it gives me an enormous advantage; but I started playing video games against my little brother at six. Almost two decades of competition.

Most girls are not afforded that exposure from a young age, so they're playing catch up. Big catch up. It doesn't matter how clever you are, experience is the master and gaining experience takes time. The root of all this is in how we treat girls differently to boys growing up, emphasizing different parts of the psyche (competitive for boys, nurturing for girls). Ruthlessness doesn't come naturally to
girls like it does to boys.

*Polger sisters are an obvious exception, but they were basically raised as chess playing boys, so that only reinforces my point.

Wraith223
2 red decks were nice. Watch out Z, One of them runnin Magma Jet![/b]

I run Magma Jet, I love that card. I even run it in Modern where it is slightly underpowered. Not sure what your point is, I even wrote an article on its application.

Platypus
I don't know...seemed to work well for Z...

It isn't every day a girl meets a space cowboy...

PWraith223
Your shittin me! Where is his man card. Got to cut a corner off then.

How does one measure manliness?

Hamfactorial
I understand that men are evil and icky or [insert feminist nonsense here] but why would you describe Hasbro as misogynist,

Stop
right there hambro; you're conflating extreme feminism (late second wave and modern) with actual feminism (first wave - that which dealt with equality). The whacko man haters are an extremely vocal minority that masquerade under the banner of inclusive feminism, but they're still a minority and do not represent the movement as a whole. They get attention because they make for great media stories. Unfortunately there is evidence that extreme feminism is now being taught as actual feminism in tertiary educations across the world (it certainly is here), but it would still be wrong to conflate the two.

Nuwen
... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public?

Is it awkward to do so in the USA? It isn't here. I've done it many times.

[Alex]

Jeez. Yeah, she shouldn't have written an article on it. It seemed like she was trying to gain sympathy from the community. But she made an assumption during the match when she should have either spoken up or called a judge. At the same time, though, it sounds like her opponent downright lied about the chain of events. The situation was handled poorly by all parties involved. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy for me to say what
should have happened, but who knows what I would have done in the same situation.

She's done some other borderline scummy things in the past leading up to this, which is why she didn't get any sympathy.

Tell us.

Just the same type of behavior as displayed here, the only difference is this time she was met with consequences instead of a warning. Likely because she's been doing it for so damned long. It's a nightmare for the judges and I imagine they just got tired of it.

tl;dr: this wasn't a "one time" thing, it was pretty frequent.

[Alex]

Also Melissa DeTora is likely the most awkward human being I've ever met in my life. She's a sweetheart...but god damn is it hard to tell.

[DocLawless]

Manliness is measured in metric.

Is it awkward to do so in the USA? It isn't here. I've done it many times.

There are a great many narrow minded, judgmental people with big mouths in America that think anything even vaguely homoerotic is scandalous. The majority of us don't give a shit, and that is the direction we're going with it as a country, but there are those who disagree and do so loudly. And, sadly, being loud is a functional way to campaign your politics in America. We are quite a repressed nation.

[Nuwen]

How do you get around that? I am not interested in arguing a point as I agree with you in the clear divide seen in children's commercials and products. What would be your "acceptable" world? Unisex toys are hard to sell when the TV has cartoons and shows made to sell toys to specific genders, races, religions, and countries. Toys are big business.

Guys holding hands...you might be overthinking it or have another close issue in mind. Keep going. You are fleshing out a good issue.

How do I get around it? Talking to people about it, first - I'm not going to change the world by my lonesome. Acknowledging that a situation exists will help you brainstorm a way to make it different.

If the Internet has taught us anything, it's that
consumer-sourced adbusting really does work. Like you said, a lot of people feel powerless to affect their environment because everything seems to be sourced from large, inescapable conglomerates. As a consumer, your tools are limited to: your spending power and your platform.

An individual's spending power is very small, but while the 'net is still free we have ways to research products (http://knowmore.org/ check it) and seek out alternatives. IMO if your time is limited and you want to work to improve this situation, concentrate your efforts on keeping corporate influence as far far far away from data transmission as possible. There are a bunch of ways to help there - I recommend supporting long range node-to-node wireless protocols (http://qz.com/120270/a-new-alternative- ... r-battery/), so when the Internet inevitably becomes censored by corporate influence there's already alternative infrastructure in place.

Buy things that empower their consumers, not abuse them. I think above all else it's important to talk about & teach people to MAKE things as an alternative to buying them. Does your kid want That Next Gen Freakin' McToy? Give him a Raspberry Pi http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/ and make a MOTHERFUCKING ROBOT instead. People are worried about excluding their kids from the orgy of consumption - no one wants to be the odd fuck out, right? But I think by teaching your kid how to make something and facilitate his entertainment through education, you're giving him something that most companies can't package & sell.

I currently live in North Carolina, where it is unusual for heterosexual men above the age of 30 to touch outside of shaking hands in public. I don't think
that's a healthy norm. I wasn't touching on homosexual topics, but homophobia is certainly a symptom of a deeply-ingrained social bias for binary genders.

[windstrider]

Just look at the arguments against gay marriage here in the US to gauge that awkwardness. To be fair, though, the US is woefully behind the times when it comes to anything involving sexuality. The worst expression of this, to me, is the "abstinence-only" nonsense taught in schools in place of actual sexual education.

[Midnight_v]

I'm fucking disgusted with U/w at gp dallas. . . not so much the deck... Its always the same deck, but the extreme fapping of the commentators about what a skilled match it was vs R/G midrange / devotion. Srsly? pathetic.

[Pendulum]

Just a couple points of order, 'cuz I'm apparently a masochist:
1) Hasbro does MLP, Barbie is a Mattel product
2) Tactile association is much stronger in the palms of the hand than most other parts of the body (the noses and genitals are about the only other parts of the skin that really come close). It will inherently provide an objectively verifiable strong bond between the two people doing the holding, for specific chemical reasons.

[Khaospawn]

... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public?

It's not awkward when ham's involved.

Girl, look at dat body.

[windstrider]

... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public?

It's not awkward when ham's involved.

Girl, look at dat body.

Are you saying he works out?

[Kazekirimaru]

Also the expectations and body image issues kinda cut both ways. Women are stereotypically more affected, but men are becoming more and more affected as time goes on.

---

There is a huge difference between the media-produced female sex fantasy and the male power fantasy. One is meant for appeal, one is meant to empower. I highly doubt many men watch a Daniel Craig James Bond movie and go "Oh, what the fuck is this blatant misrepresentation of the male body? This was obviously meant for female viewership!"

[TubeHunter]

Cool topic being talked about tonight. But ultimately pointless.

[DroppinSuga]

Tube, you should probably just stop posting since your posts are fucking pointless tonight.

[TubeHunter]

Don't strain your brain too much trying to insult me, you'll probably need it for work. Oh wait...

[Kazekirimaru]

Don't strain your brain too much trying to insult me, you'll probably need it for work. Oh wait...

Wrong thread, man. Go upstairs if you want to be a fuck without repercussions.

[hamfactorial]

... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public?

It's not awkward when ham's involved.

Girl, look at dat body.

Are you saying he works out?

He even lifts

[windstrider]

Cool topic being talked about tonight. But ultimately pointless.

Meaningful discussion is never pointless when it allows for the sharing of ideas.

[DroppinSuga]

His young mind can't handle grown up talk.

[Self Medicated]

He even lifts

I lift...
















































beers

[TubeHunter]

Heh, tell me your true feelings.

Nah, why I have feelings and stances, my opinion has little meaning in the context of the whole. Pointless.

[Kazekirimaru]

Heh, tell me your true feelings.

Nah, why I have feelings and stances, my opinion has little meaning in the context of the whole. Pointless.

Someone had an extra-large cup of existential crisis this morning.

[Khaospawn]

... why is it awkward for two men to hold hands in public?

It's not awkward when ham's involved.

Girl, look at dat body.

Are you saying he works out?

He even lifts

Would you look at the
ass on that?

Yeah, he must work out.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I like Melissa DeTora (this is the actual correct spelling). She's a decent player, writes some fair articles, though nothing earth-shattering, she's from my neck of the woods, and she's one of the few ambassadors of the game we have for the female half of the population. Jackie Lee is another (also from this area I believe). The more women who can succeed at the game the better off MTG will be in terms of growth potential.

I enjoy reading her articles on TCG player as well. Jackie Lee's articles kind of lost interest after the judges debacle (don't care and
was not there, thus no judging from me). It seems her writing is really defensive of critique now.

I know I'm a little late here, but she was caught cheating again during gatecrash. She wrote an article about that too. If you have to be dishonesty and scummy like that to try to squeak out a win, you need to reevaluate your life. Is winning at magic more important than being a good person? How are people going to remember you after the match? If you are a pro, how are people going to remember you when you retire? I'd prefer to be remembered as a John Finkle or William Jensen who help less experienced opponents and rely on their superior skill to win without being scumbags.

[rcwraspy]

Also the expectations and body image issues kinda cut both ways. Women are stereotypically more affected, but men are becoming more and more affected as time goes on.

---

There is a huge difference between the media-produced female sex fantasy and the male power fantasy. One is meant for appeal, one is meant to empower. I highly doubt many men watch a Daniel Craig James Bond movie and go "Oh, what the fuck is this blatant
misrepresentation of the male body? This was obviously meant for female viewership!"

Not that exact quote, no. But when every woman in the office was fawning over Daniel Craig's coming out of the ocean shirtless scene, and I'm sitting there listening to it realizing I'm 40lbs overweight, yeah, it hits a chord.

My eyes are prettier than Daniel Craig's, though, so I've got that going for me

[LP, of the Fires]

Speaking of Superior skill, Huey Jensen is fucking amazing. Me and my buddy watched the GP top 8 coverage as he's still debating on a deck to play in vegas this coming weekend. We where particularly interested in R/x nykthos vs. the UW control deck since we've both played the red deck. Watching the match, Huey's opponent didn't misplay so much as take an inferior line which would led to him losing, but by the same token, Huey played brilliantly and won a game that I feel most people would lose and made a bad matchup look like a cakewalk; though game 2, his opponent played terribly. Turn 3, BTE, pithing needle namming ratchet bomb and Carlos has a much higher chance of winning as opposed to whatever the fuck he did.

[rcwraspy]

Heh, tell me your true feelings.

Nah, why I have feelings and stances, my opinion has little meaning in the context of the whole. Pointless.

[zemanjaski]

Winning with UB Control in every format this week. Casting lots of Brainstorms

[Lightning_Dolt]

Speaking of Superior skill, Huey Jensen is fucking amazing. Me and my buddy watched the GP top 8 coverage as he's still debating on a deck to play in vegas this coming weekend. We where particularly interested in R/x nykthos vs. the UW control deck since we've both played the red deck. Watching the match, Huey's opponent didn't misplay so much as take an inferior line which would led to him losing, but by the same token, Huey played brilliantly and won a game that I feel most people would lose and made a bad matchup look like a cakewalk; though game 2, his opponent played terribly. Turn 3, BTE, pithing needle namming ratchet bomb and Carlos has a much higher chance of winning as opposed to whatever the fuck he did.

Guy is a
phenomenal player, and a decent person. That said, I was rooting for B/W control in the finals. I hate U/W control with a fucking passion.

[TubeHunter]

Heh, tell me your true feelings.

Nah, why I have feelings and stances, my opinion has little meaning in the context of the whole. Pointless.

yeah, It's been kind of a depressing day for me.

[zemanjaski]

I like UW more than UWR or Esper. Seems like every asshole plays Esper.

< Played UB Control

< Played Cawblade

< Played UB Drownyard

< Plays UB Control in every eternal format

Maybe I'm not the best judge.

[rcwraspy]

Heh, tell me your true feelings.

Nah, why I have feelings and stances, my opinion has little meaning in the context of the whole. Pointless.

yeah, It's been kind of a depressing day for me.

Instead of lashing out at Suga you could always talk to us about it. This clan has proven time and again that we have each other's backs.
n
Just watch out though - sometimes people will snipe at self-pity (I'm not assuming that's what's going on - just making a statement).

[zemanjaski]

Played UW and UB Delver as well. Ill play anything but dorky green decks or some midrange bullshit; they're by far the least skill rewarding decks.

"Look at hand. Play land. Play most expensive card. Go"