Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[zemanjaski]

My understanding was that your day chat comment was because you thought scum could chat during all of the time. Pretty sure we clarified that early on.

[zemanjaski]

I will not support a lynch of Wraith223 toDay, sorry G_R. Pick someone else.

[Wraith223]

You want IP lynched pretty bad, Wraith. You got out of your way to establish that you're not just wagon-hopping, but that you've had IP as scum all along. Here's an original thought:

Unvote Freedom, Vote Wraith223

I said who is with me, not please vote for InflatrablePie. Big difference.

Again you failed to give a specific reason beyond a previous summary to piggy back on.

[( G_R )]

Boo

[Wraith223]

Boo

AN ORGINAL THOUGHT! Keep going! You can do it!

[( G_R )]

You're not my dad.

[Wraith223]

Of course not. Redthirst secretly is your daddy. Consider me as somone who is praising the special ed kid for doing something on their own.

Yaaaaaaah! (I clap for you)

[Wraith223]

Baby Steps.

[( G_R )]

Who the hell is redthirst?

[( G_R )]

You're also acting super-townie right now.

[( G_R )]

Don't get me started on special ed. I'm not Thrillho.

[( G_R )]

Don't get me started on special ed. I'm not Thrillho.

/flavor claims

[zemanjaski]

Will not lynch toDay:

Stardust
Wraith223
DocLawless
Rezombad

[( G_R )]

Wait. Are you claiming to be this redthirst character in-game?

[( G_R )]

>>JOINS MAFIA GAME TITLED DTR MAFIA.
*Insert Pie's pic*
>>COMPLAINS ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF BLATHERING.

[Wraith223]

Sigh....that was fun. That's why I have you on the bottom of my scum list cause still don't know.

Think everyone has heard from me and my opinions. Anyone have an opinion on Stardust's bad call. AlL i know from the mod is that Rcwraspy "lynch failed". It could mean that the vote failed or his actual lynch failed. That means Stardust was beyond wrong and created a gambit to place Rcw. at unkillable to keep him in the game or Stardust is still wrong in trying to lynch a towny. Ham Thoughts?

I could never be redthirst in any setting. He has ubber legendary status.

[Stardust]

InflateablePie (Stardust says we can't lynch him)

I never said this. Do what you gotta do.

[zemanjaski]

OK, I agree with Wraith223, it seems like quite a few posters will only follow Stardust or Pie; so it seems like we have to reach a consensus about progressing the game state. Thoughts SD? I am not really going to bother talking to Pie if his intention is to replace out.

[DocLawless]

It could mean that the vote failed or his actual lynch failed.

It means the lynch failed. He had six votes, mod confirmed, and he was impervious to it.

[Jack]

I thought the votes reset after Pie's "hammer." Guess not. Unvote.

[zemanjaski]

Actually, ( G_R ) are you willing to lynch Pie?

Stardust, Wraith223, Freedom, DocLawless, rcwraspy have expressed interest to, and he already has a vote on himself. If you think he is scummy we can take him out now.

Can G_R or SD explain how bad a mislynch here is for me? I have Pie on neutral. With two Town down, my understanding is that:

Mafia kill 1 Town Night 1: 6 Town to 3 Mafia (this assumes a 9:3 start)
Lynch 1 Mafia, 6:2
NK a Town: 5:2
Lynch a Mafia, 5:1

So we still have some amount of wiggle room? I don't mind a lynch on Pie as he has been SO ACTIVE there will be a lot of info to work through. He isn't high on my candidate list, but he represents more info that anyone above him, so that is probably a more valuable outcome for Town? Insight please, kinda thinking out loud here.

Aside. I don't like that Rez gave me the "I don't answer your questions" BS but then just avoided SD's
questions. If we're both scumlike I would have thought he would treat us the same.

[zemanjaski]

Freedom / Lawless are you willing to vote Pie? Y / N?

If you need to think more, what do you need to think about? Please list your concerns fully. This is important.

[Jack]

I won't vote for Pie yet. As stupid as it may seem, it's the self vote that's pushing me away from him. In the first 7 or so pages, I was less than half as confident in my reads as I am now, and then I had him as town because he was looking very try-hard town. Then, I began to believe that all of those actions could have just been a cover up, especially his defense of me. I mean, trading a possible myslynch (me) for a townie read from a number of town players seems like an alright tradeoff for him to make if he was scum. But I just can't bring myself to vote for him yet, especially with that self-vote. Even if he is pissed off at pretty much all of us, I don't think he'd volunteer to be lynched if he was scum. That seems like the kind of thing that stops you from getting invited into future games. Since the town is bigger, though, I think he sees getting himself lynched as okay, since the town has already gained
a lot of information toDay (especially with the raspy stuff), and will still gain some if he ends up dead.

[zemanjaski]

Stardust

---

I will not vote freedom.

Vote imopen2.

I also forgot about hammy. Quick read of his interactions with the rcw wagon (specifically the end of this post) make this feel better. Where is that guy anyway?

Unvote, Vote hamfactorial.

Now that's how you town-post. Where was this rcw a minute ago?

I did have Pie as town. I asked his input both because he's an experienced player and because I wanted him to commit to those same reads. "I'd put imopen and LMD on the backburner myself. So my vote's for rcw/ham/GR." I'm glad you brought this us, because immediately following your lynch, he went after LMD (zemanjaski). Not to mention that his hammer was the scummiest thing to happen all game.

I'm in. Unvote, Vote InflatablePie.

Unvote, Vote rezombad.

Answer my questions or I will press this until you are lynched. There is no way your case on me was made with good intentions. Not when you can't even answer simple questions about the logic.[/quote:
2jho5d6f]

You've been super consistent and logical this game SD, then you just went wild. What is with experienced players and losing it? You really think Rezombad is worth chasing for the 5% chance he is scum? Let it go, he will not be the lynch toDay. I will join you in a lynch of Hamfactorial or Inflatable Pie. Imopen2 maybe in the future, but not toDay. Agreed?

So rcw is confirmed town. This calls rezombad's confirmed town status into question (especially given the miller addition), but we can deal with that later. He's still off the lynch list for today.

Let me go into more detail here for a sec to help you guys interpret what this means in
later days. rcw is confirmed town, especially if he's fully lynch proof. If it's an x-shot thing, he's still very very very likely town. If he's acting super shady, you guys can make him confirm this later and put it to the test.

This is worth noting for everyone, we should, as the first point of business toMorrow, test out rcwraspy's claims. That puts him off the chopping block toDay, but we'll revisit him toMorrow.

I agree. I think hammy is probably scum.

Later in the same post you call Pie and I confirmed town. Does the fact that we're both fairly experienced not scare you at all?

Honestly until this morning (last few pages), I thought I had a pretty good handle on where everyone was at in this game. Now two players I was pretty sure were Town (yourself and
Pie) are just incomprehensible to me. I didn't put either of you as Town because of your experience, but instead because after analysis, I felt confidant that your actions had Town motivations.

rcwraspy

---

First up congrats, you made it through the Day. First thing I will do toMorrow is test your claim by making sure we try to lynch you as our first point of order. You should vote for yourself during this test as well please. If you pass, well done, confirmed Town!

Post 616 was really good. I don't fully agree with it, but more importantly for me is that your demeanor has changed and that you're clearly now trying to help. Understand that until we confirm you tomorrow, I will listen to you, but not accept anything you say. After toMorrow, we'll be in business. In case you get NK'd, please post as much info as possible though!

Can you explain your positioning of Rez and wraith for me? You've explained the rest already.

Wraith hinted at a scum day-chat, which is only something that scum would know about - especially coming from a noobie player. I highlighted that late last night.

Rezombad has never really answered why he wanted to shoot Z. A lot of people were on the Z wagon and it's not unfathomable by any means, but the complete lack of accountability/explanation afterwards doesn't sit right with me. Add to that my PR, which only I knew at the time, and his role can be read as much less "confirmed town" than others implying.

(PEdit: Stardust hit on the rezombad dayvig town
v. scum thing already)

Firstly, Wraith223 had explained early in the thread that the day chat comment was a misunderstanding; he thought mafia could communicate at all times, not just at Night. Do you have anything else on him?

Comment re: Rezombad noted, but he will not the the lynch toDay. Will consider it toMorrow, especially if you get NK'd.

@ everybody not Rezombad: Should I claim my flavor name? Why or why not? Does flavor matter and why or why not?

I think it does matter. I was Kaitscralt, a DTR admin and high up gutter member; hence the power role. I think claiming your role would help confirm you as Town, as long time members here like Stardust or ( G_R ) will know if that character would be Town or not; but maybe it is unreliable? It is Suga's game after all, he could have
anybody by anything I guess. I wouldn't bother claiming, we can test your claimed power toMorrow.

Rezombad

---

Must be nice to do nothing, badly fuck up, then go back to doing nothing knowing you won't be lynched or NK'd. Can you at least try to help?

Is this you trying to set me up for a mislynch later? Or are you just being petty because you got shot for being scummy as fuck?
What about rcw being unlynchable makes me suspicious?

Pretty salty about being day killed two games in a row tbh. I think it would have served Town better to discuss your PR before using it; likely giving a
confirmed Town member (95%) and a better use of it. I wasn't "scummy as fuck" because by that point my wagon was basically just Pie and everyone else had lost interest. So you went off by yourself, judging by your posts without fully reading and digesting the thread. That's poor play and it hurts Town. You put us a LONG way behind, and yeah, that pisses me off.

I don't think you're that suspicious, mostly noting the 5% possibility that you're scum; Town seems to have a lot of PRs for a game of this size, although what would I know? Second game (and my first was Ragnarok where all the powers were crazy). You won't be the lynch toDay, and probably not toMorrow tbh.

vote stardust

Something about his play this game has been off to me, because he normally really gets under my skin, but he hasn't this game. I'm not big on meta, but this is kind of an indicator to me that he might be
worth looking into.

Cool, noted and thank you.

information instead of analysis, and when a vote for imopen doesn't get more votes he switches to hamfactorial.

I also don't like this, even if I dislike Hamfactorial more. What are your thoughts on Ham while I have your attention?

Hey look, stardust jumping for the fourth time in less than 12 hours. Using pie's suspicion of z as weak pretense. That hammer would have been scummy had rcw flipped scum. It does him no good to quicklynch a townie day1 as scum.

Good point, thanks for that theory explanation.

Finally, two questions:
- thoughts on a protocol lynch of rcwraspy to start toMorrow and to test his claim? Not just to the lynch threshold either, all the way, in case, as you mentioned, he has an increased lynch threshold; if he is Town he wouldn't have lied about his ability, so any outcome other than a non-lynch catches scum. Thoughts? Is
there a problem with doing this that I am not seeing? That gives us two confirmed Town (you, raspy) which is the start of a good voting block when we need 5 to lynch.

- I will not support you in a lynch of Stardust toDay. Maybe toMorrow but not toDay. Who else are you willing to go after?

Other comments:
- wraith still reads as Town to me, I will not vote for him toDay
- I just can't get a read on G_R; he seems to be avoiding all the major conflicts, or even commenting on them; that is suspect, but I know he is very busy....ugggh. What I want from you ( G_R ) is a commitment to vote as part of the forming block.
- I don't really know what to make of the Pie / Stardust / Rezom mess from overnight. At least two Town in it I think; everyone's frustrations are starting to boil over.
- Go look at Hamfactorial's last 10 posts in ISO. Scum.

Way out of left field comment: could the scum team be Stardust, Pie, Freedom? Mostly because they both protected Freedom, and after
raspy's observations of what might be buddy-chat.

Freedom, what ARE you going to do this game?

[zemanjaski]

Freedom / Lawless are you willing to vote Pie? Y / N?

If you need to think more, what do you need to think about? Please list your concerns fully. This is important.

Well Lawless?

[DocLawless]

I'm typing.


At first I was reading Pie as scum. But he convinced me, eventually, that he was more likely town. Then he hammer voted Raspy before the reviews we were waiting on him to give us, which set my alarms off again. But since voting for him once, and then being talked down off my soapbox by SD, I've had time to revise my opinion on him. I can't see Pie quitting and requesting a replace as being a tactic beneficial to either team. So I don't think that was a play. I think he really is just waiting to see what we do before he just leaves. Giving that this is true, his hammer vote and his follow up posts about "day needed to end anyway" and voting to lynch a defeatist townie being fine... basically all the reasons everyone suddenly thinks he's scum are all in line with him having basically given up.
He said exactly as much in his last post, that Zem replacing back in for LMD killed his motivation to be here. With no reason to disbelieve that, nothing he said or did after Zem replaced in can be taken as seriously playing to win. For either team. And if it is a gambit that's some serious, under-the-table, not okay bullshit.

I don't believe that a mislynch is acceptable toDay. Our Doctor is gone, the day vig (questions to his actual alignment will not be humored in the context of this particular assessment) blew his shot, someone will die tonight... as I said last night, a mislynch isn't high on my Christmas list. I want to know A) who is next on our hit list if he flips scum, B) who are we looking at as a traitor if he flips town, and C) why is he the target to take out, scum or otherwise, if he's resigned to not even participating? What possible harm can he do to town, or help can he be to the mafia, at this point? Is it not better to wait for his replacement to join in, to compare and contrast
their play styles, if there is any doubt as to his alignment? Because this all stinks of something. I don't have the experience to be able to tell exactly what, but if scum gets a win off the inexperience of those of us who are new I want to know that I put up as much of a fight as I could have.

I'll sit on my vote until March if I don't feel good about this, and you all can form a lynch without me. And if all that does is force other people to act or not act then you should be able to figure out how to make that information count too. 'Cause I don't have a lynchproof, or a day kill, or a protection power role. I got one vote, and that's my nut. I mean, my alignment is pretty much a conclusion everyone has drawn by now. I spent about four pages being coy about it before I realized that it actually benefited me to not keep it a secret. Because the scum already know I'm town, and I actually *want* town to know what I am because numbers matter.

[zemanjaski]

Put up a candidate then.

[zemanjaski]

Be aware that you cannot wait indefinitely, eventually Suga will set a deadline and if we don't lynch, there will be a no-lynch and we go to Night. My reading of the Mafiascum theory section suggests that a no-lynch day 1 is substantially hurt's the Town's chances of winning.

I don't want a mislynch either; so who is a better candidate? Pie's corpe gives the most information of any available.

[zemanjaski]

( G_R ) why not mentioned moving until I brought it up?

[DocLawless]

It's Pie or Stardust toDay. And I will admit that Pie is the easier target. What are your thoughts on my questions about the possibility of lynching Pie? Here they are again for posterity:

1) If he flips scum, what does that say to you about who else might be scum?
2) If he flips town, what does that say to you about the people who started running him up?
3) Why is he the lynch target if he's resigned to not participating? Is it because it's the easier lynch than Stardust or GR?

I see your spoiler text on SD already answers some of those talking points, so feel free to not repeat yourself where those points overlap. I think we're on the same page concerning our reads on IP and Dusty, and how and when they changed. As well as a few other points. A lot of them, actually. I just want to know we're on the same page in why we're running Pie up. Because I just can't get over this nagging suspicion that something
is fucked. The likelihood that all three scum are sitting back and laughing at us while we do the work for them is not as likely, to me, that one of them is stirring the pot. Is it Pie or Stardust?

[DocLawless]

Be aware that you cannot wait indefinitely, eventually Suga will set a deadline and if we don't lynch, there will be a no-lynch and we go to Night. My reading of the Mafiascum theory section suggests that a no-lynch day 1 is substantially hurt's the Town's chances of winning.

I don't want a mislynch either; so who is a better candidate? Pie's corpe gives the most information of any available.

Fuck. Yeah. You're right. On both counts.

[zemanjaski]

It's Pie or Stardust toDay. And I will admit that Pie is the easier target. What are your thoughts on my questions about the possibility of lynching Pie? Here they are again for posterity:

1) If he flips scum, what does that say to you about who else might be scum?
2) If he flips town, what does that say to you about the people who started running him up?
3) Why is he the lynch target if he's resigned to not participating? Is it because it's the easier lynch than Stardust or GR?

I see your spoiler text on SD already answers some of those talking points, so feel free to not repeat yourself where those points overlap. I think we're on the same page concerning our reads on IP and Dusty, and how and when they changed. As well as a few other points. A lot
of them, actually. I just want to know we're on the same page in why we're running Pie up. Because I just can't get over this nagging suspicion that something is fucked. The likelihood that all three scum are sitting back and laughing at us while we do the work for them is not as likely, to me, that one of them is stirring the pot. Is it Pie or Stardust?

Sorry or missing your questions, I tend to just make a bunch of posts where I list my thoughts when things start to click for me.

1) If Pie flips scum I remain suspicious of Freedom, on account of Pie white knighting him. I also want to look at who wouldn't vote for him, as I think less experienced players would be unwilling to bus their most experienced team member; without his directions and leadership at Night they're substantially weakened. Beyond that, I would want to look for who Pie has had the least interactions with, because I don't think inexperienced scum would want to get in the way of inexperienced scum, and odds are
there is at least a single noob scum in the game (so many new players). Then I would want to look at who Pie has had interaction with without being confrontation; probably Rezombad and G_R. Does that order of business make sense? Obviously there needs to be an entire day of conversation before a second lynch, and things can change; we still need to confirm raspy for example.

2)If he flips town we do a wagon analysis. Hopefully one of the veteran players survives to lead this, as I have never done one myself, though I can look up some examples for us to use. We would want to look at who was on the final wagon, in what order, then back track through the vote counts over time to look for anything suspect, or any tandem movements. There is probably more to this than my noob brain understands; inconsistencies are paramount though. For example, Wraith has consistently been on Pie; whereas SD has recently had a series of flip-flops. So I would be more interested in looking at SD than Wraith etc.

3) He is my
lynch candidate because in the matrix of "candidates that could actually get enough votes to lynch" against "information to be gained from a lynch" the outcome is the most favourable for Town. Like, I have suspicions of Ham and Freedom; lynching Ham doesn't tell us much because he has interacted with almost nobody; Freedom tells us a bit more but I don't think we will get the numbers to lynch him. I am in two minds on imopen2 and I don't want to lynch any of Stardust, Rezombad or G_R; though I am most open to G_R of those listed.

So can we consider your position changed, are you willing to vote for Pie?

[DocLawless]

That sounds like about where I'm at too. Thank you for humoring me. The last two times we did this it led to us losing or nearly losing (were it not for an unlynchable) town players. That makes me a little nervous.

I'm willing to go with you on this if it'll move this damn game along.

[zemanjaski]

Can you clarify for me why only a few posts ago you were determined to wait, buy now are willing to vote to progress game state?

Unvote, Vote Inflatable Pie

[DocLawless]

I was willing to wait until further clarification of my read on you. I'm trying not to let my knowledge of what you were playing earlier in this game color my decisions about what you're playing now. That's easy to do because I don't personally know any of you, and LMD did so very little while he was around. I just wanted a little extra confirmation.

vote InflatablePie

[zemanjaski]

Now is your chance Freedom.

[DocLawless]

We're watching you...

[Jack]

Vote: Hamfactorial

You'll probably be able to get a lynch on Pie, but I won't vote for him yet. I say that we try to lynch ham for the same reason we tried to lynch raspy (he's in pretty much nobody's town pile, and if we vote for these types of people the odds of winning are in our favor).

[zemanjaski]

No.

Ham's body tell us nothing. Try again.

[zemanjaski]

Raspy dying would've told us heaps. You think Ham is more likely than not scum? You're ok with making a meaningless vote?