[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[LP, of the Fires]

In the military it was mandatory to get a flu...something. There was the nasal spray and the shot. Apparently, there was a method of blowing out the nasal spray after it was administered and avoiding your body "taking" the vaccine, but if this didn't work you where FOR SURE getting the flu. I always took the shot and I was usually fine after a day or so.

[Kazekirimaru]

I've never had a flu shot and have only caught the flu once to my knowledge.

[GoblinWarchief]

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Auguri RedNihilist ! Di dove sei ? io sono marchigiano.

[GoblinWarchief]

It's an okay deck, it's the closest thing the format has to RDW. It just can't compete with affinity since it has more bad matchups, in my experience even hexproof and stompy are better positioned. I would put it on par with blink decks, both are kinda rogue.

If you want to tap mountains I recommend burn, it's fairly simple and mindbogglingly consistent (I am undefeated with it in paper).

I disagree. I win a lot with goblins, the only real bad matchup is auras IF they draw their armadillo cloaks. Affinity is a bit difficult but post-board i have gorilla shaman that destroy them if played correctly (1 mana repeatable stone rain ) . Before posts got
banned i had a slightly positive matchup against it because that deck wasn't often able to stop my race. Infect and kiln fiend decks get destroyed by bolts + sparksmith (sparksmith is GOD against any deck with targettable creatures). Delver decks are even matchups, because those decks sometimes seem to have everything, but i found out that my nut draws beat theirs. against stompy i have no experience but i think it's an even matchup where i must take the control role. Regarding consistency , goblins get to play 8 goblin sledder and 8 mogg conscripts, so it is more or less as consistent as burn.
I must mention that i don't play online, but in paper because my lgs organize pauper events quite often especially during summer.
Maybe i can write a pauper goblins primer here if i have time

[Khaospawn]

I can't fucking wait for Christmas to get here so it can be gone and I can get back to some sense of normalcy at my job.

Bah, humbug!

[Wraith223]

I can't fucking wait for Christmas to get here so it can be gone and I can get back to some sense of normalcy at my job.

Bah, humbug!

I as well can't wait for Christmas to end. All the rich pilots want their planes washed aftewards and I make a killin!

[LP, of the Fires]

Good lord, washing a plane sounds like the fucking worst. I flew on planes for a living so I can imagine.

[Valdarith]

Variance is not being kind to me tonight. Lost the first games of two straight eight mans.

Also, I'm sick of "Turn one Thoughtseize you." I'm even more sick of the baddies that keep it in against me postboard and still win.

You are aware that many high level players keep some Thoughtseize post board against red right? Hitting high value cards like your 4/4 haste creature, Skullcrack or other anti-lifegain card is a huge swing in their favor.

That player which won the GP with BR actually boarded in TS against red that how strong thoughtseize is, its just all about the timing.

I'm aware, yes. That doesn't mean they're right. I see a lot of black players keeping Thoughtseize in against even burn decks. Against a deck where the opponent's cards all do the same thing (3-4 damage) that's the last card you want to play.

Thoughtseize is great
vs. burn decks. Quite being bad.

No it's not. Learn to play (and spell).

How does the burn player win? How does the black player win? How does thoughtseize affect the situation?

Burn player needs to deal 20 damage without dying to what, desecration demon/pack rat/gary. Black player needs to stabilize till he can win with aforementioned cards. Mono-black runs approximately 8 million removal spells to burns 8-12 creatures(cacklers/phoenix/YP/Dragon and dragon would probably get boarded out).

The burn player likely doesn't improve his deck much at all after board because the strat is fairly straightforward. The biggest improvement is playing 4 toil/troubles postboard assuming they aren't maindecked. The black player gets to make a bunch of changes and improves his deck massively(mostly taking out connections/erebos) and gets to add duress and additional copies of pharika's cure.

The reason having access to 2 thoughtseiz'es is still good(or great) is
because you still want 6 discard effects. If you want to be obstinate, paying two life against a burn deck "feels bad". The goal though is to win the most games of magic and thoughtseize accomplishes this. I've won all my matches vs. burn with Esper and Mono-black usually on the backs of turn 2/3 thoughtseizes taking toil/troubles which is affectively a gain 4+ for me. You don't even suffer the traditional weakenss of discard being bad top-decks since you rarely get to that point and you have pack rat. Your 1 mana disruption spells function as curve fillers(turn 1, discard, turn 2, removal, turn 3, removal+discard being an example) and additonally all of the burn players cards DON'T do the same thing. Toil, Chained to the racks, and Skullcrack are all the important cards that the black player cares about and discard is the one way to answer all of them.

You can call your opponent bad for thoughtsezing you on turn forcing your skullcrack and having him take a lightning strike(or whatever) but
in reality, he probably knew what he was doing better then you did and was setting up gray merchant to win the game.

Same applies to esper really. People get surprised when I bring in my anti-control package vs. the burn deck but it turns out sin collector, negate, and the third thoughtseize are equally great vs. Red spell based decks as they are vs. blue spell based decks.

This is the kind of response I can get behind. In my experience though my opponents are either keeping all four copies of Thoughtseize alongside Duress or are somehow getting their two copies of Thoughtseize in their opening seven.

I understand that there are times where Thoughtseize can nab that Toil / Trouble or Skullcrack that does more effective damage than three, but in all other situations it basically says "B, Sorcery, Gain one life." A lot worse than Duress. You can't ignore the effect of seeing your opponent's hand, but again, and Duress or Thoughtseize is the only turn one play black can
really make so at least they're doing something, right?

Still, Thoughtseize vs burn is pretty icky, and ALL of my opponents have been casting it on turn one, so no skill whatsoever. That's what makes the card so frustrating: it's such a simple card to play and yet more than half the pilots do it wrong.

[Alex]

Variance is not being kind to me tonight. Lost the first games of two straight eight mans.

Also, I'm sick of "Turn one Thoughtseize you." I'm even more sick of the baddies that keep it in against me postboard and still win.

You are aware that many high level players keep some Thoughtseize post board against red right? Hitting high value cards like your 4/4 haste creature, Skullcrack or other anti-lifegain card is a huge swing in their favor.

That player which won the GP with BR actually boarded in TS against red that how strong thoughtseize is, its just all about the timing.

I'm aware, yes. That doesn't mean they're right. I see a lot of black players keeping Thoughtseize in against even burn decks. Against a deck where the opponent's cards all do the same thing (3-4 damage) that's the last card you want to play.

Thoughtseize is great vs. burn decks.
Quite being bad.

No it's not. Learn to play (and spell).

How does the burn player win? How does the black player win? How does thoughtseize affect the situation?

Burn player needs to deal 20 damage without dying to what, desecration demon/pack rat/gary. Black player needs to stabilize till he can win with aforementioned cards. Mono-black runs approximately 8 million removal spells to burns 8-12 creatures(cacklers/phoenix/YP/Dragon and dragon would probably get boarded out).

The burn player likely doesn't improve his deck much at all after board because the strat is fairly straightforward. The biggest improvement is playing 4 toil/troubles postboard assuming they aren't maindecked. The black player gets to make a bunch of changes and improves his deck massively(mostly taking out connections/erebos) and gets to add duress and additional copies of pharika's cure.

The reason having access to 2 thoughtseiz'es is still good(or great) is because you still
want 6 discard effects. If you want to be obstinate, paying two life against a burn deck "feels bad". The goal though is to win the most games of magic and thoughtseize accomplishes this. I've won all my matches vs. burn with Esper and Mono-black usually on the backs of turn 2/3 thoughtseizes taking toil/troubles which is affectively a gain 4+ for me. You don't even suffer the traditional weakenss of discard being bad top-decks since you rarely get to that point and you have pack rat. Your 1 mana disruption spells function as curve fillers(turn 1, discard, turn 2, removal, turn 3, removal+discard being an example) and additonally all of the burn players cards DON'T do the same thing. Toil, Chained to the racks, and Skullcrack are all the important cards that the black player cares about and discard is the one way to answer all of them.

You can call your opponent bad for thoughtsezing you on turn forcing your skullcrack and having him take a lightning strike(or whatever) but in reality, he
probably knew what he was doing better then you did and was setting up gray merchant to win the game.

Same applies to esper really. People get surprised when I bring in my anti-control package vs. the burn deck but it turns out sin collector, negate, and the third thoughtseize are equally great vs. Red spell based decks as they are vs. blue spell based decks.

Everything in this post is extremely on-point. Vald, sorry to say it, but you got dunked.

Burn players can almost never beat a resolved Grey Merchant of Asphodel. Forcing a Skullcrack with Thoughtseize is about as close to Valuetown as you can get with the card in the matchup, but in the universe where winning > losing, it's an absolutely fine play, albeit a little unintuitive.

[Valdarith]

See my edit above. I undersrand the relevance of turn 3-4 discard to get Skullcrack, but that never happens to me. ALL my opponents slam it turn one. That's my beef.

[Valdarith]

And it's actually worse than that. I had a mono black opponent last night keep a one lander because he had Thoughtseize and Duress. I think we can guess who won that game.

I admit I could just be jaded because the majority of mono black players I face are pretty bad, and I don't like Thoughtseize as a card in general because it is not skill intensive. But I know for a fact I'm not the only one here who thinks Thoughtseize is bad against red strategies.

[Alex]

This just in: bad people are allowed to play Magic too.

You can't plan your sideboarding strategy around your opponent being a complete moron unless you have that knowledge ahead of time.

[LP, of the Fires]

Thoughtseize is skill intensive in the same way caw-blade and RDW are. An idiot can with it and make it look easy by getting lucky/doing broken things while a master will never lose with it cause...master.

[DarthStabber]

I disagree. I win a lot with goblins, the only real bad matchup is auras IF they draw their armadillo cloaks. Affinity is a bit difficult but post-board i have gorilla shaman that destroy them if played correctly (1 mana repeatable stone rain ) . Before posts got banned i had a slightly positive matchup against it because that deck wasn't often able to stop my race. Infect and kiln fiend decks get destroyed by bolts + sparksmith (sparksmith is GOD against any deck with targettable creatures). Delver decks are even matchups, because those decks sometimes seem to have everything, but i found out that my nut draws beat theirs. against stompy i have no experience but i think
it's an even matchup where i must take the control role. Regarding consistency , goblins get to play 8 goblin sledder and 8 mogg conscripts, so it is more or less as consistent as burn.
I must mention that i don't play online, but in paper because my lgs organize pauper events quite often especially during summer.
Maybe i can write a pauper goblins primer here if i have time

Stompy absolutely forces you control, that deck is nothing but beats, and almost can't play control. I didn't say you couldn't beat affinity, what I meant was that affinity generally does better, in fact it's one of the three pillars of the format (MUC, MBC, Affinity), you do have the advantage that everyone is not packing a bunch of sideboard tools for you, but affinity is surprisingly good at fighting through hate. And I haven't seen a goblin deck be nearly as consistent as burn, seriously, if I haven't won with burn by
turn 4 I really should have mulligan'd, though you might have one. If you're interest this is my burn deck

[Valdarith]

I can somewhat agree with that. My real issue with Thoughtseize is that it rewards mono black players for keeping a marginal hand. They can be short on removal or whatever but if they have Thoughtseize they can take that one or two drop to make up for their bad hand. It's just too powerful for Standard IMO.

[TubeHunter]

If only everyone could play thoughtseize as well as i do...

[LP, of the Fires]

I agree thoughtseize is too powerful for standard. A friend of mine ranted about how horribly this set was designed because instead of Theros standard, it feels like thoughtseize standard V2 to him.

Having said that, I like formats that have OP cards in them so I don't mind. I enjoyed Caw-blade, Delver, and all those other dumb formats. I was kind of down on this format till I discovered how much I enjoy Devotion Red/w. Chained to the rocks means I no longer just lose to desecration demon.

[TubeHunter]

Im not sosure that thoughtseize is too strong, I just think this standard is just really weak compared to the past couple.

[zemanjaski]

The power level of this standard is pretty even, so it's fine. Caw-Blade and Delver were fine before wotc fucked up the third set of the respective block, printing absurd cards for the already best deck (Batterskull and Restoration Angel respectively).

Caw-Blade was one of four tier 1 decks prior to Batterskull (also Mono Red with Koth; Boros Landfall and RUG Control). UW Delver was the best deck, but Wolf Run Ramp, Drownyard Control, GR Aggro, Naya Pod and BR Zombies were all great decks. So formats are really only lame if the best deck gets an absurd toy and so far they've avoided that in the last year. Time will tell.

[TubeHunter]

even though i just said that i didn't think thoughtseize is too good, I doubt we see it again in standard. Its a horridly unfun card for the main market demographic that they push towards. "I hate when he paid 1 mana and made me discard my 7 mana dragon!" and that kind of thing

[Valdarith]

It's not nearly as bad in Modern or Legacy where the cards are more powerful individually. But in Standard it's just flat out absurd.

[Kaitscralt]

The power level of this standard is pretty even, so it's fine. Caw-Blade and Delver were fine before wotc fucked up the third set of the respective block, printing absurd cards for the already best deck (Batterskull and Restoration Angel respectively).

Caw-Blade was one of four tier 1 decks prior to Batterskull (also Mono Red with Koth; Boros Landfall and RUG Control). UW Delver was the best deck, but Wolf Run Ramp, Drownyard Control, GR Aggro, Naya Pod and BR Zombies were all great decks. So formats are really only lame if the best deck gets an absurd toy and so far they've avoided that in the last year. Time will tell.

this is true but the power level of theros block compared to those blocks is insanely weak, the devotion decks are all
limited cards and cheap mythics. it is hard to imagine stronger cards will not follow and potentially repeat history.

that said i would rather play in this standard than one with cards like ponder and delver running around together. that's legacy magic. standard doesn't need that shit.

and i didn't want thoughtseize back either.

[Khaospawn]

I think that if they give Black Thoughtseize back, they should give Red Lightning Bolt back. And Path to Exile back to White. But fuck Blue and Green. They already had Delver and Thragtusk recently.

But that's all my opinion.

Edit : I guess White sorta got Path back with Chains. But fuck all that, just give us Path!

[RaidaTheBlade]

Speaking of standard, I'm really having problems deciding what list I want to take to tournaments this weekend...

Big Boros is awesome, but with the success of b/w aggro and esper humans, I'm almost tempted to go back to pyrodragons...

Then there's Dos Rakis, where the kill spells are super handy vs a huge amount of the field right now...


Spoiled for choice I guess.... What are y'all's thoughts?

[zemanjaski]

I think that thinking for yourself is the most wonderful gift of all.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Johnny, I just read through your tourney report, and I must agree that that is the sweetest GP playmat I've ever seen.

The participation playmat was thoughtseize. I sold to my round 5 opponent, (the pro player from Malaysia) for ¥6500. He told me a sob story about having the mat from every GP he's been to this year and missing that one. I felt bad and agreed to sell it to him. It worked out for me since it paid for the mat I really wanted and then some. I like to think it bought me a little karma / good luck too.

The Mt. Fuji one was ¥3500 and only about 300 produced. The art is from the Asia Pacific land series, painted by John Avon. They're already selling for $100 - $300 on eBay.

I really wanted it because:

It's a basic
mountain.

It will remind me of my time in Japan (going home to Canada at the end of my contract).

This is probably the best finish I'll have at this level of tournament for a while.

We could see Mt. Fuji from the tournament center, and it looked just like that.

I climbed Mt. Fuji from the very bottom to the top (on the advanced trail ) two summers ago. It took 16 hours and was the most physically challenging thing I've ever done. Not recommended for first time climbers. Most people start at the fifth station, which is already above the clouds.

For me, it reminds me of the satisfaction of overcoming something difficult, be it climbing, playing magic, living in Japan, or just trying to make my way in the world in general.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I think that thinking for yourself is the most wonderful gift of all.

Good to see ya, Mr.5!

But I see your point... I dunno, I always have a tough time making decisions like that. I also don't have a huge amount of experience at tournaments, so I figured asking people who do wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I mean, at a 6-8 round tournament with a top8, what's better: power or consistency?
That's kinda a core question.


Edit: Not sure what to say in response to that, JS... Beyond offering you an internet high-five.

[Khaospawn]

Raida, here's a tip based on what I already do :

Before every tournament, look at what you played last week, your spare cards, your pile of cards that you haven't played, etc. Build a deck on the spot based on what YOU want to do, what you feel like doing, and use cards that YOU know how to play well. Build you sideboard accordingly.

In the last few months, I haven't known what I was going to play until about an hour or two before it starts. But then again, I only play Mono Red and I can build ten different strong decks at any given moment in my sleep. But no matter what configuration of cards I end up playing, I'm playing exactly what I want to play every time. And that's a big advantage.

[zemanjaski]

I think that thinking for yourself is the most wonderful gift of all.

Good to see ya, Mr.5!

But I see your point... I dunno, I always have a tough time making decisions like that. I also don't have a huge amount of experience at tournaments, so I figured asking people who do wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I mean, at a 6-8 round tournament with a top8, what's better: power or consistency?
That's kinda a core question.

Edit: Not sure what to say in response to that, JS... Beyond offering you an internet high-five.

Flippant or not you don't
talk down to me again.

[Khaospawn]

Watch out, Z will ride a flying kangaroo right out of Aussie land to show you what a real knife looks like!

[zemanjaski]

I won't take lip from someone who only takes.

[zemanjaski]

The power level of this standard is pretty even, so it's fine. Caw-Blade and Delver were fine before wotc fucked up the third set of the respective block, printing absurd cards for the already best deck (Batterskull and Restoration Angel respectively).

Caw-Blade was one of four tier 1 decks prior to Batterskull (also Mono Red with Koth; Boros Landfall and RUG Control). UW Delver was the best deck, but Wolf Run Ramp, Drownyard Control, GR Aggro, Naya Pod and BR Zombies were all great decks. So formats are really only lame if the best deck gets an absurd toy and so far they've avoided that
in the last year. Time will tell.

this is true but the power level of theros block compared to those blocks is insanely weak, the devotion decks are all limited cards and cheap mythics. it is hard to imagine stronger cards will not follow and potentially repeat history.

that said i would rather play in this standard than one with cards like ponder and delver running around together. that's legacy magic. standard doesn't need that shit.

and i didn't want thoughtseize back either.

Thoughtseize should have been in Modern Masters.

[zemanjaski]

There are decks in Standard that are adequately skill rewarding for different skillsets, that's all that matters.

[Khaospawn]

I won't take lip from someone who only takes.

He's learning, man. Of course, I understand your PoV completely. I do, and I respect that. But don't you think that's a little harsh? Raida wants to learn and become as good as you, which is definitely no easy feat. A lot of people look up to you, for better or for worse, in the world of Magic. Remember that Raida is one of us, not some filthy Travis Woo that wants you to spoonfeed strategy to so he can call it his own.


For what its worth, I believe that becoming a better Magic player somewhat boils down to thinking for yourself and sticking to your convictions. But it's getting to that point is what can be a challenge.

[Khaospawn]

I just want to add that I'm currently working on that case of mead. Mmmmmmm

[zemanjaski]

In my own way I'm helping. I'm not a role model.

[Kazekirimaru]

Hope you're all feeling peachy, friends.

[Khaospawn]

I don't think any "role model" chooses to be one. But what makes a great one is someone that that realizes they're in a position to make a difference and does so.

But I'm going to concede the point. I really do think you are trying to help in you own way. I've known you long enough to know when you're joking and when you're serious (or when you're drunk off your ass ), but I sometimes wonder if any of the youngbloods know that yet. They're in for a ride lol

[Khaospawn]

Hope you're all feeling peachy, friends.

Chaucer's mead is truly nectar of the gods!

[zemanjaski]

Brutal honesty is usually indicative I care about someone.

But yeah I make no effoto be a role model and nor do I want to be.