Mono Black Aggro

[Self Medicated]

Saw this list 4-0 a daily yesterday:

[DECK]
Lands (24)
4x Mutavault
20x Swamp

Creatures (24)
4x Herald of Torment
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Mogis's Marauder
4x Pack Rat
3x Pain Seer
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Tormented Hero

Spells (12)
3x Bile Blight
4x Hero’s Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
1x Ultimate Price

Sideboard (15)
1x Bile Blight
4x Dark Betrayal
2x Devour Flesh
4x Duress
3x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Lifebane Zombie
[/DECK]

Card for card the deck that got 4th at Super Sunday.

Oh yeah. Just looked at that. Seems pretty solid.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Agreed on Pack Rats comments, question about Duress - what MU is that card dead in? Hitting a walker in Gr seems like a plus and when the card is truly dead you can always feed it to Pack Rats

Though swapping the Duress out for more removal works as well.

Basically dead vs mono u, R/x and W/x.

[Tyrael]

Johnny, what if you swapped out Mogis for Thrill-Kill Assassin? They're basically a removal spell

well almost

PS: I will be running your list for now since I haven't been able to find anyone that wanted to trade their rats

[Lightning_Dolt]

You're deck is infinitely worse for not playing pack rat.

There, I said it.

You either scrub out in the second round or you play long enough to see yourself discard to Pack Rat.

[magicdownunder]

Agreed on Pack Rats comments, question about Duress - what MU is that card dead in? Hitting a walker in Gr seems like a plus and when the card is truly dead you can always feed it to Pack Rats

Though swapping the Duress out for more removal works as well.

Basically dead vs mono u, R/x and W/x.

Ux runs Walkers, Bounce, Equipment and removal MD.
Rx run Burn, some run removal and enchantments and other run walkers and equipment.
Wx runs removal, walkers, enchantment and
protection spells.

I'm a tad bias to discard since I think Pack rats is the one of best creature in the format (which I hate with a passion)

So I'll like to run something like this:

4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Pain Seer
4 Pack Rat
4 Herald of Torment
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
1 Duress
4 Mutavault
19 Swamp
SB: 2 Erebos, God of the Dead
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Doom Blade
SB: 3 Dark Betrayal
SB: 2 Devour Flesh
SB: 2 Whip of Erebos

[Lightning_Dolt]

Agreed on Pack Rats comments, question about Duress - what MU is that card dead in? Hitting a walker in Gr seems like a plus and when the card is truly dead you can always feed it to Pack Rats

Though swapping the Duress out for more removal works as well.

Basically dead vs mono u, R/x and W/x.

Ux runs Walkers,
Bounce, Equipment and removal MD.
Rx run Burn, some run removal and enchantments and other run walkers and equipment.
Wx runs removal, walkers, enchantment and protection spells.

I'm a tad bias to discard since I think Pack rats is the one of best creature in the format (which I hate with a passion)

So I'll live to run something like this:

4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Pain Seer
4 Pack Rat
4 Herald of Torment
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
1 Duress
4 Mutavault
19 Swamp
SB: 2 Erebos, God of the Dead
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Doom Blade
SB: 3 Dark Betrayal
SB: 2 Devour Flesh
SB: 2 Whip of Erebos

Vs U/x you have seven maindeck targets. I do not think that's enough to warrant duress.

Vs R/x you take their best burn spell,bu
they have so much redundancy it doesn't matter much.

Vs W/x you can take their one of spear of heliod or a brave the elements.

In Uw and Wu you can snag Dsphere. I just don't think it's a main deck card because this is an aggro deck afterall. We do not want dead cards in the main. If only we had some reach...

[Lightning_Dolt]

Gr also only seems to have about 9 maindeck targets.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Bought my Pack Rats today... I feel dirty even saying it...

Also made some Pack Rat tokens... Feel free to use them if you like them.

[Pedros]

I have really bad streak of plays with mono b agro, especially vs Black Devotion

Here is a problem: Because all of our creatures are black (no surprises), they board in all of their Dark Betrayals (which most lists run it as a 4 of). Because they got access for a 1 mana instant speed terror, we often can't generate enough pressure as cmc of answer <<< cmc of threat. Only answer to more efficient 1 for 1 strategy is to overload a board with cheap creatures - and here is a problem they also have access for Bile Blights (you can play around it) and Drown in Sorrow.

Another problem with playing Black agro is the fact that specter is such a beating vs us, as they dont need to steal mana first to use cards, they just can use them on a turn they connect with specter.

While I had really good win % vs black pre BTG, I cant remain it the same after BTG. Problem is the fact, tha most list exchanged conditional removal
in Pharicas Cure and Ultimate Price with BileBlight and Drown in Sorrow. Late game Pack rat (I often kept it as a last threat) isnt working right now.

Notice I still have this problem, even after playing 9 cards vs black (4 specters, 3 dark betratals, whip and erebos) as I am on a camp that discard is bad when all they have is an answer, especially game 2 when they have access to ridiculus amount of removal, and seize doesnt do anything.

BTW on MTGO I face:

40% mono black
10% B/w control
25% UW Control
10% Esper Humans
10% RG Agro
5% Rest: RB Agro, B Agro, Red Burn, Red Devotion.

So my point is being black backfires in black dominated metagame (even when we aren't playing stock lists).

Pain Seer is good as it generates card advantage. It is on of those threats I like to sandbag.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Why the hell are you playing spectre?

[Pedros]

To try to generate some card advantage vs black? It was a reason this deck did so well vs black control pre btg. I also explained my points when I said I am not in a camp of playing more discard vs black, as I dont see of point if I strip them of Dark Betrayal, Bile Blight or Devour flesh. I would rather generate better lategame in topdeck. Discard was good when resolved pack rat was good if wasnt killed. Now that is not a point.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I understand the problems you're having with tempo. However, you have all the same tools availible as them. You should be able to out tempo them. Sure you're paying three for a creature and they're paying one to kill it. They're paying five for a creature and you're paying one. We have the lower curve, tempo should be on our side. Drown in Sorrow is only a two of out of the board. You have to be aware of it / try to strip it with a discard spell. I'm not sure why you're against discard spells.

What makes you think NVS isn't going to eat removal the same as any other creature? That card is really not that great if you don't need the three pips of devotion. I do not understand it in this deck at all.

If you want late game cards advantage, you could try Underworld Connections? MBD can't interact with it.

I disagree with sandbagging Pain Seer. I think you want to play it turn two and try to attack before the
board gets gummed up with Garys. If they kill it they kill it. You have to try to protect it with your targeted discard spells.

I sorry if I come off as a dick, but it might make sense to go back to the stock list and focus on learning to play it, rather than making a bunch of changes that suit your playstyle (but seem suboptimal) and then wondering why the deck isn't working. Sorry if that is harsh.

[Lightning_Dolt]

VS Mono Black Devotion (Assuming they are running Owen's list, which they should be):

[deck]Creatures(16)
4xDesecration Demon
4xGray Merchant of Asphodel
4xNightveil Specter
4xPack Rat

Spells(18)
4xBile Blight
2xDevour Flesh
4xHero's Downfall
4xThoughtseize
4xUnderworld Connections

Land (26)
4xTemple of Deceit
4xMutavault
18xSwamp

Sideboard (15)
3xLifebane Zombie
3xDuress
2xErebos, God of the Dead
2xDrown in Sorrow
2xDevour Flesh
2xDark Betrayal
1xDoom Blade[/deck]

Postboard their deck should probably be:

+2 Dark Betrayal, +2 Drown in Sorrow
-4 Underworld Connections

I've contacted a friend who is a semi-pro and dedicated MBD player to make sure my guess is correct.

Anyway, to me at least, that really doesn't seem that bad. They get four hate cards.

I think we should board (
assuming Grueber's list):

[deck]
Creatures (24)
4 Herald of Torment
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mogis's Marauder
4 Pack Rat
3 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero

Spells (12)
3 Bile Blight
4 Hero’s Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price

Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
20 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Bile Blight
4 Dark Betrayal
2 Devour Flesh
4 Duress
3 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Lifebane Zombie[/deck]

-2 [card]Mogis's Marauder[/card],-3 Lifebane Zombie, -3 Bile Blight, -1 [card]Hero's Downfall[/card], -2 Rakdos Cackler.
+4 Dark Betrayal, +4 Duress, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead

Feel free to disagree, but I think it is correct to play aggro control / tempo and attack aggressively while stripping their hand or things that could disrupt you. You should have the
tempo advantage.

I'm interested in thoughts on Erebos, because I can see arguments for bringing him in and leaving him out. He punks their Garys, which is one of their only ways to stabilize, and he draws cards if you stall. He's not super pro-active though, if you can't get up to 5 devotion (in which case you're probably winning anyway).

I'm interested in other people's opinions on what should be boarded.

Edit: Heard back from semi-Pro friend, Mono black sides out UC and X Thoughtseize, and brings in 2x DiS and 2+X DB.

Edit #2: Updated the plan after convo with friend and feedback from RCW.

[Purp]

The mono black matchup becomes an attrition game, the card draw you get from erebos is pretty nice.

[rcwraspy]

Erebos definitely comes in against MBD, but I disagree with Ultimate Price coming out. Specter is the only creature in their list that it doesn't hit. You've boarded out 7 3-drops, you may be able to board out a swamp to make the math work even though you're bringing in 3 4-drops.

EDIT: You changed your SB strat while I was posting this. You definitely want Erebos in there - he'll win the match for you by drawing your cards. They've taken out UCs and they likely won't bring in Erebos against you, so all of a sudden you're the one with the CA and ability to really commit to Pack Rat.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Sorry, was hammering out messages on FB with buddy and updating it repeatedly as the conversation went on. He's a much better player than I am, so I'm going to go with what he thinks.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ RCW I agree 100%.

[rcwraspy]

Also not a fan of taking out 3 Downfalls. All of a sudden you're left with 6 removal spells against their 16 creatures, all of which are impactful in some way. I'd probably take out 1 Downfall and 2 Cackler. I know you want a T1 play against them to start the tempo, but you brought in 4x Duress to help with that, and it's weak to the Drown in Sorrow we know they're bringing in against us. In this list I tend to leave in Hero over Cackler simply because of Herald of Torment's bestow, but I'm not sure if that's correct.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That makes sense too. We will be drawing more cards than them and have better information about their hand as well, but I agree with you. I didn't want to cut downfall.

MBD actually cuts some number of HDF in the mirror interestingly enough.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think the updated plan is probably good. I don't think we want to cut anymore creatures, or we become too slow. Since MBD is not running ultimate price, I agree with Hero over Cackler post board.

[Pedros]

@Johnny

What makes you think yours sb plan is correct? How many games did you play with mono black agro to invalidate everything I am saying? I played tons of games vs black pre and post BtG, also if you idolize Owen (he is great player and knows what he is talking about) he is taking seizes out for more creatures/removal.

Taking out Bile Blights is strange as it is another way to kill rats, even when you are behind. Would never take them out. Rat and Specters are 2 most important creatures in this matchup.

Everyone has their own opinions, I dont force anyone here to play specters. I am just pointing out you are only running 17 creatures post board, and I dont see how you want to win that kind of game.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@Johnny

What makes you think yours sb plan is correct? How many games did you play with mono black agro to invalidate everything I am saying? I played tons of games vs black pre and post BtG, also if you idolize Owen (he is great player and knows what he is talking about) he is taking seizes out for more creatures/removal.

Taking out Bile Blights is strange as it is another way to kill rats, even when you are behind. Would never take them out. Rat and Specters are 2 most important creatures in this matchup.

Everyone has their own opinions, I dont force anyone here to play specters. I am just pointing out you are only running 17 creatures post board, and I dont see how you want to win that kind of game.

I've been playing MBA for a few weeks (
5 paper events), but I did just top 8 a large event with it.

We're working on this together and I'm trying to help you. I respect you (I was the one who nominated you for SG) and your testing, but when you're doing things differently than everyone else and it's not workng, you should try what everyone else is doing.

Again, not to be a dick, but pre BNG means nothing in the context of post BNG.

I don't idolize Owen, but I acknowledge that he is the best player in the world right now. If I was playing MBD, I'd be running his list. I believe my assessment of their SB plan is correct. If you know something I don't, let me know.

Of course Rat and Specter are important, it's literally half their creatures. However, I believe one mana hard removal is just better. It's about tempo, and that's lne of the issues you were having. You have 8 removal plus thoughtseize for their 16 creatures and you should be drawing more cards than them.

You are short four creatures post board if you count
erebos, 7 if you don't. You plan is to pull apart their hand and grind them out, the same way you would with any control deck.

Take my advice, don't take my advice, but when we're all moving in the same direction it's easier. That's why I bought pack rats even though I really didn't want to play them. We collectively do more testing than we are capable of alone. That's the whole point of working together. if you're having trouble beating that M/U, try running the list / strategy that isn't. I wish you luck.

[Pedros]

I cant see how we can grind this matchup when they have merchants and underworld connections. You cant control top of their deck with discard.

I played this daily with yours configuration, and sb as you said. I was stuck with 2 ereboses in hand (1 in play) and discarded removals and merchant. He played connections from top and 2 more merchants, and was left at 1. I agree that this is variance (got 3 ereboses, he got 3 merchant 1 that gained him life couse I didnt have 4rd land in time), but I dont understand how you would outgrind mono black when they are build to grind while you arent.

It just might be variance and bad luck, but if I cant win anything in 5 dailys while prebtg I won 90%-95% matches vs mono black means something is different ;/

[LaZerBurn]

It just might be variance and bad luck, but if I cant win anything in 5 dailys while prebtg I won 90%-95% matches vs mono black means something is different ;/

I wonder how much the changes to the list have made Pedros? Do you think it is all down to BB and DIS? I do remember the guy who wrote the article on MonoB Aggro saying he expected it to get much worse after BNG with the new removal too so it may just be down to that.

[Lightning_Dolt]

You had a bad hand, he had a good one. It happens. He should have sided UC out, the fact that he didn't makes him lucky, not good. Keep trying. It isn't really a bad match up, and I do believe it will come to you.

[magicdownunder]

I would say keeping Underworld Connection would make him a good player rather then a bad one.

Bx has 0 reach, post board they'll obv. side out creatures and add in more removals and cheap tricks - if I was board against that (remember your boarding against your Opp. G2+3 not G1) I would keep UC since I'll predict more Discard, Removal and Erebos, God of the Dead usually over creatures.

- - - - - - -

I think Purp has it spot on (loving your contribution as of late) its an attrition war, you'll be 1-for-1'ing each other till someone gets on top - I'll highly recommend keeping your discards in this MU, going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats and Spectors.

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the
Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

[Lightning_Dolt]

Then I would strip your UC wih my duress and you'd not have as much removal. If you cast it, you help me kill you. Go ahead. Make my day lol.

Seriously though, if not UC, what do you board out?

[LaZerBurn]

I think Purp has it spot on (loving your contribution as of late)

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

I agrre, Purp you're on fire And well done on the placing!

[Lightning_Dolt]

Purp was my other pick for SG

Anymore thoughts on the SB plan? if you guys have ideas, I'd like to hear them. We're best when we work together.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Also, an interesting article I stumbled upon:

http://manadeprived.com/brewing-board-angry-black-men/

[Pedros]

I would say keeping Underworld Connection would make him a good player rather then a bad one.

Bx has 0 reach, post board they'll obv. side out creatures and add in more removals and cheap tricks - if I was board against that (remember your boarding against your Opp. G2+3 not G1) I would keep UC since I'll predict more Discard, Removal and Erebos, God of the Dead usually over creatures.

- - - - - - -

I think Purp has it spot on (loving your contribution as of late) its an attrition war, you'll be 1-for-1'ing each other till someone gets on top - I'll highly recommend keeping your discards in this MU, going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats
and Spectors.

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

As I will agree that keeping might seize is good, playing duress isnt as good in sb.

I asked some of my friends that play this deck (one of them made top 64 in Vienna) and he said he also isnt sb out all of his connections.

Black Players doesnt sb out all connections even vs red, also they keep some seizes. Stripping lightning bolt = 1 less damage + chance of not being able to recur phoenix.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I would say keeping Underworld Connection would make him a good player rather then a bad one.

Bx has 0 reach, post board they'll obv. side out creatures and add in more removals and cheap tricks - if I was board against that (remember your boarding against your Opp. G2+3 not G1) I would keep UC since I'll predict more Discard, Removal and Erebos, God of the Dead usually over creatures.

- - - - - - -

I think Purp has it spot on (loving your contribution as of late) its an attrition war, you'll be 1-for-1'ing each other till someone gets on top - I'll highly recommend keeping your discards in
this MU, going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats and Spectors.

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

As I will agree that keeping might seize is good, playing duress isnt as good in sb.

I asked some of my friends that play this deck (one of them made top 64 in Vienna) and he said he also isnt sb out all of his connections.

Black Players doesnt sb out all connections even vs red, also they keep some seizes. Stripping lightning bolt = 1 less damage + chance of not being able to recur phoenix.

Owen:
"I still play 4 Underworld Connections in my deck, but I have to
say I hate this card. I really think it's terrible. I continue to play it because I assume I'm probably wrong about it and since I win with the deck anyways that I'm overreacting. I also realize that in the matchups where I struggle, like the mirror match and UW Control, Underworld Connections is by far the best card you can possibly have and it's almost suicidal to try to play the mirror match with less than 4 in the main and expect to do well. If I actually consistently win against almost everything except the matchups where its at it's best, then it would stand to reason that they serve a solid purpose. I would altogether put Read the Bones in my deck instead if it weren't for the Underworld Connections giving me some much needed devotion to black."

From his sideboard plan, here: http://www.
channelfireball.com/articles ... -devotion/


Against Mono-Blue Devotion (There was no plan written for any other aggro decks)

Remove
4 Underworld Connections
2 Desecration Demon

Add
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 [card]Pharika's Cure[/card]
1 Doom Blade

We're just as aggro, if not more aggro than Mono U. I don't think the chances of them leaving it in are high.

Even if they do, what are we boarding.

[Lightning_Dolt]

There are 13 copies of duress in the four decklists that we have to work off... They're all playing at least two.

I'm open to listening to different ideas. Why do you dislike Duress?

[Lightning_Dolt]

Required reading for premium readers:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27 ... -Rat-.html

[Pedros]

There are 13 copies of duress in the four decklists that we have to work off... They're all playing at least two.

I'm open to listening to different ideas. Why do you dislike Duress?

Nah I said it wrong. I love duress -> I dont like it vs black as what you strip is one of many removals. It doesnt matter if you strip downfal, price, devour flesh or bile blight most of the time.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think it does, but agree to disagree.

After doing some digging,

Todd Anderson's vs Mono White Aggro:

-4 Underworld Connections
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Pack Rats

+3 Drown in Sorrow
+3 Lifebane Zombie
+1 Devour Flesh

Brad Nelson vs GW Aggro:

-4 Underworld Connections
-1 Devour Flesh

+2 [card]Pharika's Cure[/card]
+3 Lifebane Zombie

Brad Nelson: "You only want Underworld Connections versus the mirror and U/W/x Control."

TL;DR Pros SB out Underworld Connections VS Aggro.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Since I care more about figuring out the SB plan than I do about being right, I'll also post this:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ard-black/

Pedros, feel free to say I told you so, then let's continue the discussion..

[Pedros]

Since I care more about figuring out the SB plan than I do about being right, I'll also post this:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ard-black/

Pedros, feel free to say I told you so, then let's continue the discussion..

I dont really understand what do you want to tell me with this post.

[LaZerBurn]

Since I care more about figuring out the SB plan than I do about being right, I'll also post this:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ard-black/

Pedros, feel free to say I told you so, then let's continue the discussion..

I dont really understand what do you want to tell me with this post.

That Owen takes out LBZ and TS for Spectre and Dark Betrayal I would think.

Great research J_S, very thorough

[Pedros]

Since I care more about figuring out the SB plan than I do about being right, I'll also post this:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ard-black/

Pedros, feel free to say I told you so, then let's continue the discussion..

I dont really understand what do you want to tell me with this post.[/quote:
27z5xc4e]
That Owen takes out LBZ and TS for Spectre and Dark Betrayal I would think.

Great research J_S, very thorough

Isnt it what I was talking about? He isnt sb in duresses either plus he isnt keeping seizes as well.