Mono Black Aggro

[LaZerBurn]

Yes Pedros, it's why J_S says "feel free to say I told you so" - he means that Owen agrees with your SBing and he's sharing the article he found because he is interested in figuring out the best plan not in winning the debate. Does that make sense?

[Pedros]

Yes Pedros, it's why J_S says "feel free to say I told you so" - he means that Owen agrees with your SBing and he's sharing the article he found because he is interested in figuring out the best plan not in winning the debate. Does that make sense?

Thanks Lazer I am not native speaker and sometimes I dont understand some of those strange sentence constructions.

[rcwraspy]

I would say keeping Underworld Connection would make him a good player rather then a bad one.

Bx has 0 reach, post board they'll obv. side out creatures and add in more removals and cheap tricks - if I was board against that (remember your boarding against your Opp. G2+3 not G1) I would keep UC since I'll predict more Discard, Removal and Erebos, God of the Dead usually over creatures.

- - - - - - -

I think Purp has it spot on (
loving your contribution as of late) its an attrition war, you'll be 1-for-1'ing each other till someone gets on top - I'll highly recommend keeping your discards in this MU, going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats and Spectors.

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

As I will agree that keeping might seize is good, playing duress isnt as good in sb.

I asked some of my friends that play this deck (one of them made top 64 in Vienna) and he said he also isnt sb out all of his connections.

Black Players doesnt sb out all connections even vs red, also they keep some seizes. Stripping lightning bolt = 1 less damage +
chance of not being able to recur phoenix.

Owen:
"I still play 4 Underworld Connections in my deck, but I have to say I hate this card. I really think it's terrible. I continue to play it because I assume I'm probably wrong about it and since I win with the deck anyways that I'm overreacting. I also realize that in the matchups where I struggle, like the mirror match and UW Control, Underworld Connections is by far the best card you can possibly have and it's almost suicidal to try to play the mirror match with less than 4 in the main and expect to do well. If I actually consistently win against almost everything except the matchups where its at it's best, then it would stand to reason that they serve a solid purpose. I would altogether put Read the Bones in my deck instead if it weren't for the Underworld Connections giving me some much needed devotion
to black."

From his sideboard plan, here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -devotion/


Against Mono-Blue Devotion (There was no plan written for any other aggro decks)

Remove
4 Underworld Connections
2 Desecration Demon

Add
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 [card]Pharika's Cure[/card]
1 Doom Blade

We're just as aggro, if not more aggro than Mono U. I don't think the chances of them leaving it in are high.

Even if they do, what are we boarding.

I haven't yet read the article you posted after this and maybe it's answered, but I wouldn't equate MBD siding for MonoU to siding for MonoB Aggro. They're entirely different decks.
A very quick for instance - there's no point in them bringing in LBZ against black aggro. So what do you leave in if you're not bringing in LBZ? Probably a few UCs.

That said, I do think we have a favorable matchup against MBD. Post-board we have just as much removal and just as much hand disruption as them but with faster threats, and a bestowed Herald needs to die twice. We also have as much card draw available to us because of 3-4x MD Seer and 2-3 SB Erebos potentially equaling their MD UCs and SB Erebos. Of course, I'll certainly concede that their UCs are much harder to deal with once resolved than our Seer.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Sorry mate, that was a you were right, I was wrong post. Me trying to apologize, as it turns out Owen agrees with you.

However, none of the new lists are running NVS... I wonder if it's time to revisit it? That article really flipped everything I thought I knew about the m/u on it's head. Now I'm not sure what to board at all really. Where do we go from here?

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ RCW I was pointing out that VS Mono U, Gw Aggro and WW played by three different pros, they all SB out UC. It stands to reason UC is sided out vs all flavors of aggro.

[Purp]

My buddy who is a fellow PTQ grinder, with two top 8s this season, always sides out UC verse aggro. No matter what flavor. Just because someone might not have done it on MODO, doesn't mean its correct.

I think its safe to say: Siding out UC vs aggro is the right call.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That's exactly what I meant.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Assuming we're sticking with Gruber's list, how does this look?

-2 Mogis's Marauder,-3 Lifebane Zombie, -3 thoughtseize.
+4 Dark Betrayal, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead, +1 Bile Blight

Erebos replaces NVS as you CA engine. You're full retard aggro with no discard.

[LaZerBurn]

Yes Pedros, it's why J_S says "feel free to say I told you so" - he means that Owen agrees with your SBing and he's sharing the article he found because he is interested in figuring out the best plan not in winning the debate. Does that make sense?

Thanks Lazer I am not native speaker and sometimes I dont understand some of those strange sentence constructions.

No worries, I think you do great, your English is waaaaay better than my Polish

[LaZerBurn]

Sorry mate, that was a you were right, I was wrong post. Me trying to apologize, as it turns out Owen agrees with you.

However, none of the new lists are running NVS... I wonder if it's time to revisit it? That article really flipped everything I thought I knew about the m/u on it's head. Now I'm not sure what to board at all really. Where do we go from here?

Great post, I really admire how honest and upfront you are J_S

[LP, of the Fires]

I would say keeping Underworld Connection would make him a good player rather then a bad one.

Bx has 0 reach, post board they'll obv. side out creatures and add in more removals and cheap tricks - if I was board against that (remember your boarding against your Opp. G2+3 not G1) I would keep UC since I'll predict more Discard, Removal and Erebos, God of the Dead usually over creatures.

- - - - - - -

I think Purp has it spot on (loving
your contribution as of late) its an attrition war, you'll be 1-for-1'ing each other till someone gets on top - I'll highly recommend keeping your discards in this MU, going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats and Spectors.

(almost hit top50 2014 Magic Online Player of the Year Standings - if that help my credibility )

As I will agree that keeping might seize is good, playing duress isnt as good in sb.

I asked some of my friends that play this deck (one of them made top 64 in Vienna) and he said he also isnt sb out all of his connections.

Black Players doesnt sb out all connections even vs red, also they keep some seizes. Stripping lightning bolt = 1 less damage + chance of
not being able to recur phoenix.

Owen:
"I still play 4 Underworld Connections in my deck, but I have to say I hate this card. I really think it's terrible. I continue to play it because I assume I'm probably wrong about it and since I win with the deck anyways that I'm overreacting. I also realize that in the matchups where I struggle, like the mirror match and UW Control, Underworld Connections is by far the best card you can possibly have and it's almost suicidal to try to play the mirror match with less than 4 in the main and expect to do well. If I actually consistently win against almost everything except the matchups where its at it's best, then it would stand to reason that they serve a solid purpose. I would altogether put Read the Bones in my deck instead if it weren't for the Underworld Connections giving me some much needed devotion to black.&
quot;

From his sideboard plan, here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -devotion/


Against Mono-Blue Devotion (There was no plan written for any other aggro decks)

Remove
4 Underworld Connections
2 Desecration Demon

Add
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 [card]Pharika's Cure[/card]
1 Doom Blade

We're just as aggro, if not more aggro than Mono U. I don't think the chances of them leaving it in are high.

Even if they do, what are we boarding.

That's a flawed way of looking at the matchup. Mono-blue and Mono-black agro are both "agro" but they play fundamentally different. The blue deck is a board control build and wants to
just spam permanentns at you until one of the broken cards finishes the game, while the black deck has to do lots of interacting. Essentially, the black deck plays with you, the blue deck plays past you. Since in the black on black matchup, both decks are playing "with" each other, the stock of a card like UC goes up because in the highly interactive games, you want a CA engine. Vs. the blue deck, since they're just playing past you, you won't have the set up time and thus just want to kill things asap for the whole game.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ RCW I was pointing out that VS Mono U, Gw Aggro and WW played by three different pros, they all SB out UC. It stands to reason UC is sided out vs all flavors of aggro.

[magicdownunder]

That's a flawed way of looking at the matchup. Mono-blue and Mono-black agro are both "agro" but they play fundamentally different. The blue deck is a board control build and wants to just spam permanentns at you until one of the broken cards finishes the game, while the black deck has to do lots of interacting. Essentially, the black deck plays with you, the blue deck plays past you. Since in the black on black matchup, both decks are playing "with" each other, the stock of a card like UC goes up because in the highly interactive games, you want a CA engine. Vs. the blue deck, since they're just playing past you, you won't have the set up time and thus just want to kill things asap for the whole game.

I'm glad
someone understands (I vote LP for best poster on DtR if we had a voting system)

I wouldn't keep UC vs Gr, Ux or WW either, but I would against Burn based builds and Black Aggro.

Thus I stand by my SB'ing comment for B Aggro vs Bx Devotion: "going by my list I'll cut -3x LBZ, 1x Blight Bile and 1x HDF for 3x Dark Betrayal and 2x Erebos, God of the Dead. I'll keep at least 2x BB for Rats and Spectors." though I wouldn't recommend my list since I think LP's take on it is better.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Against burn? Really?

[Lightning_Dolt]

OK LP, MDU, if they are not siding out UC, what are they siding out? 4 cards have to come out for the ones that are going in.

Please share your ideas instead of just saying I'm wrong

[magicdownunder]

UC can't be dealt with via burn (usually) so it serves as a great tool in supporting Gary (its much better then LBZ in this regard).

I know your not a fan of messy boards since you dislike uneven numbers, but going by Owen's list I'll cut a number of Pack Rats, Underworld Connections and Hero's Downfall - my game-plan would be ensure that I can keep your main threats dead (rats and seer) until I can cast Drown or BB to sweep the rest.

I havn't play the MU much so I'm not sure how I'll feel about running 4x Rats with BB + Drown + your opp. BB, so I think rats should be a later drop/top-deck where he can survive after the initial discard and kill spree.

(I can see the irony in me suggesting cutting UC, but I wouldn't recommend cutting all of them (just like for the rats or for BB on the Black Aggro side))

[Lightning_Dolt]

I understand your argument, but with the ammount of reach burn has, can they even activate UC?

I still think vs mono black aggro they are siding them out. Owen and Brad both said they come out vs everything but uw/x control and the mirror.

Regardless, what are we sideboarding against them? I will try he boarding plan I posted above if I get paired vs Mono Black tonight, but I don't know that I will. I'll post results / notes here if I do.

Also, vs BW, do we want to leave LBZ in for BBoV / Obzedat? My gut instinct is yes, but I'm curious what you guys think.

[Lightning_Dolt]

And MDU, you're absolutely correct. I hate messy sideboards. I don't like leaving in one thoughtseize. Almost enough to move one LBZ to the main to make it a clean in and out swap.

[Pedros]

Vs BW I am keeping both lifebanes and thoughseizes in as they get rid of barons and elspeth before they do damage. They also run much less threats, so they are quite good in this matchup. Their only creatures are barons, demons and rats, sometimes obzedats + elspeths. Trim some number of bile blights (hit only rats muta and elspeth tokens), cut some ultimate prices (keep downfals for obzedats and elspeths). Exchange demons for specters. That was my plan.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That sounds pretty good to me.

[Lightning_Dolt]

How do you feel about Marauder vs them? Helps with Elspeth tokens but pretty narrow. My gut says to cut it.

[Aodh]

Thrull Parasite playable as a 1- or 2-of? I really like having 9-10 1-drops in my aggro decks.

[Lightning_Dolt]

You already have 12 with thoughtseize.

[MegaGreige]

I think thrull parasite presents reach in the form of extort that this deck really needs.

I've moved down to 3 thoughtseize main (1 side) to try and have a more explosive G1, and another turn 1 creature that also adds reach definitely fits that strategy.

There also aren't any great turn 4 plays (aside from cackler + mogis) and so curving out mana and having thrull in play opens up a nice t4.

Maybe he isn't worth it but I'm going to test with 1-2 at FNM and an IQ this Saturday and will post results.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Let us know how the testing goes. I'm looking forward to ust making a pack rat and activating mutavault ob turn four lol.

Not a fan of cutting the best card in the format though...

[Lightning_Dolt]

This week's discussions have been productive. Thank you for you efforts gents. I think we're close to a consensus on boarding for Mono Black Devotion. Let's work on the othe match ups.

All assuming Gruber's list.

VS Mono Black Devotion:
-2 Mogis's Marauder,-3 Lifebane Zombie, -3 thoughtseize.
+4 Dark Betrayal, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead, +1 Bile Blight

VS Mono U Devotion
-4 Rakdos Cackler,
+1 Lifebane Xombie, +1 Bile Blight, +2 Devour Flesh

VS BW
-3 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price, -2 Mogis's Marauder
+1 Lifebane Zombie, +2 Devour Flesh, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead

VS UW/X Control
-3 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price, -3 Lifebane Zombie
+4 Duress, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead

VS GR Monsters
-3 Bile Blight, -3 Tormented Hero
+1 Lifebane Zombie, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead,
+2 Devour Flesh

Are there any other match ups we really care about that I'm missing? Any obvious holes in the plan or things you disagree with? Please let me know (but if you're going to say you disagree, please post your plan so we can discuss).

[Pedros]

Esper midrange/humans and Red devotion

[magicdownunder]

This week's discussions have been productive. Thank you for you efforts gents. I think we're close to a consensus on boarding for Mono Black Devotion. Let's work on the othe match ups.

All assuming Gruber's list.

I don't like Gruber's configuration, but here I go:

VS Mono Black Devotion:
-2 Mogis's Marauder,-3 Lifebane Zombie, -3 thoughtseize.
+4 Dark Betrayal, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead, +1 Bile Blight

Looks, like your taking Pedros's Plan - its a different approach I'll take but it should be fine

VS Mono U Devotion
-4 Rakdos Cackler,
+1 Lifebane Xombie, +1 Bile Blight, +2 Devour Flesh

[color=#
FF0000]I like this plan[/color]

VS BW
-3 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price, -2 Mogis's Marauder
+1 Lifebane Zombie, +2 Devour Flesh, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead

-2 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price, -2 Mogis's Marauder, -1 Lifebane Zombie, -2 Pack Rat
+2 Devour Flesh, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead, +3 Dark Betrayal (You don't want to roll over to Demons, Rats or Spectors).

VS UW/X Control
-3 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price, -3 Lifebane Zombie
+4 Duress, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead

-4 Pack Rat (the Rats needs to go), -3 Bile Blight, -1 Ultimate Price
+1 Lifebane Zombie, +4 Duress, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead (LBZ is so strong against UWx it isn't even funny)

VS GR Monsters
-3 Bile Blight, -3 Tormented Hero
+1 Lifebane Zombie, +3 Erebos, God of the Dead, +2 Devour Flesh

-4x [card]Rakdos
Cackler[/card] (Hero secondary ability is better then it looks in drawn out games), -2 Bile Blight (Bile Blight does allow for combat tricks with blocks and attacks so keeping 1-2 will help)

Are there any other match ups we really care about that I'm missing? Any obvious holes in the plan or things you disagree with? Please let me know (but if you're going to say you disagree, please post your plan so we can discuss).

Your missing Red and Esper Aggro/humans, feel free to ignore my comments

[LP, of the Fires]

I'd keep some if not all of the rats in vs. UW since they allow you to pressure with 1 card. Simply having a rat in your opener lets you always have 4 power on the board until they board wipe and in losing games, you can always just go all in for the hail mary and steal some wins.

IDK what grubbers list is, but I'd just cut all the removal minus 2 HD. If they're playing bant, you might keep in all the downfalls, but otherwise, I think I'd rather be very threat dense.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ MDU, I derped on the BW and forgot Dark Betrayal. You plan looks solid. Thank you.

@ LP, I like Hero's Downfall because you can kill their walkers and they bring in Archangel / Obzedat you're ready.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ Dpaine, Looks like we have a reasonable SBing guide for the primer.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I played Gruber's list at FNM tonight (2-1).

Played against:

R1: W/u Weenie (2-0): This seems like a very favourable match. We played a bunch between rounds and I was 8-1. Brimaz must die. Other than that, it's not too bad.

Board:-2 Rakdos Cackler, +1 Lifebane Zombie, +1 Bile Blight


R2: G/W Aggro (1-2): Rolled him G1 and mana screwed G2 (never saw third land). G3 was super close with me being on 2 life and him being on 3 (after my final swing) and him topdecking his only out ([card]Advent of the Wurm)[/card]. I left up two vaults to block, but he had Spear of Heliod and swung for exactsies.

Board: (No life gain in his build) -2 Tormented Hero (Mana Dorks can chump), +1 Lifebane Zombie, +1 [card:
2j9nqi0z]Bile Blight[/card]

R3: U/w Devotion(2-0): Really interesting G2 where Pain Seer dealt me 11 damage (Greatness at Any Cost, right LP?) and Thoughtseize dealt me 6. I cleared his board and pulled his hand apart. I was on 3 life. His only out was Pain Seer killing me. We both knew it. I tried to devour flesh myself (to sac PS) and he countered with with [card]Judge's Familiar[/card]. I hold my breath and flip a mutavault. I tried to devour myself again. Same thing, sac the familiar to counter. I hold my breath and flip a Swamp. I have a Herald of Torment but am afraid to play it until the swing will be lethal. I go in with Pain Seer, then Bile Blight it to finally be rid of it. My top deck was [card:
2j9nqi0z]Mogis's Marauder[/card] (SAFE!). I cast the Herald of Torment and the [card]Mogis's Marauder[/card] and swing in for lethal.

Board: -4 Rakdos Cackler, +1 Lifebane Zombie, +1 Bile Blight, +2 Devour Flesh

I think I may have played Pack Rat incorrectly tonight, but I'm still getting used to it. Deck feels pretty solid, and is a lot of fun to play.

Good luck at your FNMs.

[dpaine88]

Hey Fellas, been crazy busy but just got caught up.

Just wanted to chime in a few things since I played AGAINST SO MUCH mono black devotion and finished 5-2 vs them overall.

Game 1 I lost a lot...like 75% of the time, but managed to do well games 2 and 3. Erebos was my key to victory many many times. Might need 3x of him.

[Lightning_Dolt]

What's your SB plan VS them?

[Lightning_Dolt]

You've probably played the match more than any of us.

[magicdownunder]

Hey Fellas, been crazy busy but just got caught up.

Just wanted to chime in a few things since I played AGAINST SO MUCH mono black devotion and finished 5-2 vs them overall.

Game 1 I lost a lot...like 75% of the time, but managed to do well games 2 and 3. Erebos was my key to victory many many times. Might need 3x of him.

I'm interested about this as well, I did think about playing B Aggro for awhile but recent reports haven't been favorable for the Bx Devotion and BW Control MU.

On that note: dpaine88 have you tried B Aggro on MODO DE or SE yet?

[Lightning_Dolt]

I really don't think either of those matches are that bad.

What are your guys thoughts on Pack Rats vs G/x?

[Deht]

I like Pack Rat vs. G/R --- once you pass the 4 rat mark they have no answers to it. Works great against GW as well other than you have to be careful of Selesnya Charm blow outs.

[RedNihilist]

Vs G/R T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Pack Rats can be a good move, as their maindeck answers to that are either T2 Domri and Polukranos.
After sideboarding things get rough with Mizzium Mortars, but I guess that pretty much every creature this deck plays suffers that.

[mutantcrock]

First time poster so I don't expect my opinion to be worth much, but I've been having a lot of success with the list below. Spiteful Returned is infinitely better than you would expect pre-testing. It does a lot of work. Thrill-Kill is always an over performer. I'm still testing the 3 drop but so far I like AoF more than Specter, but I still need to test Necro and LBZ. Notably missing from my list is Pack Rat and that is primarily due to the fact that I am not skilled enough to use him effectively.

[deck]Creatures (25)
[cards]Rakdos Cackler[/cards] x4
[cards]Tormented Hero[/cards] x4
[cards]Thrill-Kill Assassin[/cards] x4
[cards]Agent of the Fates[/cards] x3
[cards]Mogis's Marauder[/cards] x2
[cards]Spiteful Returned[/cards] x4
[cards]Herald of Torment[/cards] x4


Spells (11)
n[cards]Thoughtseize[/cards] x4
[cards]Bile Blight[/cards] x4
[cards]Hero's Downfall[/cards] x3

Land (24)
[cards]Swamp[/cards] x20
[cards]Mutavault[/cards] x4
[/deck]