[Primer] Boros Burn

[Elricity]

If you do it early on the creature plan, you push him into deciding between counterspell, verdict or d-sphere, all of which are bad decisions. It can make a very ugly topdeck though.

I'd like to test it but I won't be home tonight.

[LP, of the Fires]

When burning earths good, it just wins the game.

[cloudscraper]

@Elr:

In the past 3 tournaments i've only lost to either the mirror (he drew much better - 5 helixes in 3 games, only 2 of them got skullcrack'd) or monoblack/Bw, so i'm sure i'm missing some central piece of STRATEGY about those matchups.


Against monoblack, the most important thing to keep in mind is Grey Merchant, but if they go t4 seize into t5 merchant what am I supposed to do if I don't have a draw that can kill on their turn five? Shut off their devotion, like Lightning Strike-ing Spectres? That's what I've usually done, to fairly average success.

Against BW, if they don't show me spectres or lifebanes or Brimaz or whatever, I don't like the full 4 Chained for Demon only... am I completely drunk?

[LP, of the Fires]

When me and James where testing pyro red at the beginning of the season, he was playing a couple in his sideboard because he couldn't be bothered to simply win the game through normal means. He instead put BE in his board to reduce the number of actual games of magic he had to play.

[Kaitscralt]

wouldnt each burning earth trigger have to resolve before he could tap the next land?

no, mana abilities do not use the stack, but even if they were instant speed abilities you could still respond to burning earth with them

at the height of burning earth it was very common to float all your mana into a sphinx's revelation to survive the burning earth damage

[DXI-Edge]

"The people that play burn dont have a choice"

Gee, Michael Jacob, now I remember why your a complete asshole.

Why do I even bother turning on his stream all he does is bitch at the chat -_-

anyway...

Purp, the card deals damage TO YOU, which against esper is actually kinda a big deal.

You may not realise this, but staying at a high life total vs. them is actually a good thing to do, as sometimes you go to 2 and you kill them the next turn.

Burning Earth hurts them, sure. But you are still tapping out for a Burning Earth, which they can then rev in response if its late in the game, or they can just D-Sphere it and its a glorified Lightning Strike.

The card is not good. Seriously. Play it and tell me you actually are happy to resolve that card on turn 4/5. Seriously

WE HAVE BETTER options vs. Esper. Why are we adding more cards other than Firedrinker Satyr that are ONLY good vs Control? Its a
GOOD matchup. Lets stop wasting space in the sideboard with cards that are only good against one deck, cuz Imma be honesty, its terribad vs. Monsters. Again, all they have to do is resolve one fatty after it, and if you dont have a removal spell for it they win. It doesnt do ANYTHING so stop playing it

[Elricity]

@Elr:

In the past 3 tournaments i've only lost to either the mirror (he drew much better - 5 helixes in 3 games, only 2 of them got skullcrack'd) or monoblack/Bw, so i'm sure i'm missing some central piece of STRATEGY about those matchups.


Against monoblack, the most important thing to keep in mind is Grey Merchant, but if they go t4 seize into t5 merchant what am I supposed to do if I don't have a draw that can kill on their turn five? Shut off their devotion, like Lightning Strike-ing Spectres? That's what I've usually done, to fairly average success.

Against BW, if they don't show me spectres or lifebanes or Brimaz or whatever, I don't like the full 4 Chained for Demon only... am I completely drunk?

Ok, in order. In the
original perfect mirror, the strategy was dependent on your hand. If you have the cards, you become more patient than your opponent because he who successfully gains life from the first helix pretty much wins. The reason Z shifted his board is to avoid that coin toss. Now, you cram cards down his throat, make him need a perfect draw or discard spells to answer you on your turn and open up helix opportunities that way.

Mono black or black white are the same way. You make every play something he has to counter while whittling him down so that he can't advance his game plan with things like underworld connections, pack rat, etc. Your whole goal is to get your opponent to less than 10 life by turn 5 so that if they do something like grey merchant, blood baron, obzedat, whatever, you explode that turn and finish them off. The build now also blanks lifebane zombie and reduces the spell count vs sin collector or duress so his discard plan is potentially weaker.

Along every point of the curve, you make their
"good" plays equal "take more damage". That's it.

Also, 2 chains max if it's the demon/vampire/ghost dad build.

[Aodh]

These are pretty bold statements you are making. I agree that it's a narrow answer to an already-good matchup, and that it's only good if it resolves before their win condition in Jund Monsters, but that doesn't mean it doesn't do anything.

It literally gives free wins.

[DXI-Edge]

It also gives free losses by not doing anything.

Please dont evaluate cards on a regular basis based on their optimal situation. Majority of the time the card is bad.

Remember, we have 23 lands. 3 of which are "creatures", meaning that 4 drops rarely, if ever, come out on turn 4.

On top of this, in the "optimal matchup" it comes in, you have to play it with 6 lands. With 23 lands you realise when 6 lands come up?

Typically? Turn 8. Most often turn 9.

If your looking to resolve a 4 mana sorcery on turn 9 against a deck with counterspells and d-spheres, be my guest. That card will never touch sleeves, let alone my sideboard.

[Aodh]

Lolz. You said the card sucks because either (i) they Detention Sphere it next turn and it's a "glorified Lightning Strike," or (ii) they get to Sphinx's Revelation for some amount (still netting 0 life) to find a Detention Sphere, to Detention Sphere it with their remaining mana and losing 3 life.

These seem like fringe cases to me, and in both cases you got them to tap out on their turn AND your "Lightning Strike" actually traded with a card in their hand in addition to dealing the damage. Derwhat?

And why do we need 6 lands before we cast it? That's just wrong. If you have the opportunity to jam Burning Earth on T4, you probably do so.

[LaZerBurn]

Purp and Zem Burn on 27-March-14

---

[deck]Purp and Zem Burn on 27-March-14[/deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Muavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Blind Obedience
1 Burning Earth
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
4 Rakdos Cackler
1 Spark Trooper
1 Warleader's Helix
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Young Pyromancer
[/deck][/spoiler:
3s6ouchj]
Channeling Zem, if I ran this board, my Monsters plan:

If straight RG: -4 Skullcrack, -4 Ash zealot, +1 YP, +1 warleaders Helix, + 2 Mizzium Mortars, +1 Blind Obediance, +1 Chained the The Rocks, +1 Spark Trooper, +1 Mutavault(more land is better for extra extort triggers, higher curve, and potential mortars overload)

If Jund Monsters, cut a borors charm for a burning earth.

Vs. Esper: -4 Shock, -3 Chained to the rocks, +1 glare, + 4 Cackler, +1 Mutavault, +1 Burning earth.

Vs. Mirror: -4 skullcrack, -4 boros charm, + 1 YP, + 4 cackler, + 1 chain, + 1 Warleaders Helix, 1 Blind Obediance.

Still not sure how I like boarding vs. mono-black. I know I want assemble, chain, mortars, and probably YP, not sure if I want cacklers or no or what to board out. I'd start with shock and probably shave numbers from there.

I spent quite a while earlier working on Zem's latest figure out the SB challenge and I seem to be getting slightly better at it

Vs MonoB I like the all in creature plan so
-4 Shock -4 Jet +4 Cackler +1 YP +1 CttR +1 Assemble +1 MM

[LP, of the Fires]

Where does this six lands garbage come from? Your strategy isn't burning earth. It's merely something that compliments your strategy.

If you're decks doing what it's supposed to do, you're applying pressure with 1/2 guys that they have to react to. If they do, slam burning earth when you have it, win game.

Your argument is mostly ridiculous.

[Elricity]

I actually wouldn't mind -1 helix +1 2nd MM. I'm not sure helix is necessary on the creature plan.

[DXI-Edge]

Please tell me why I'm wrong then?

Explain to me exactly how resolving a Burning Earth makes your esper opponent scoop?

Explain to me why having a card that is good in 1 matchup and ok in another warrants slots in our sideboard when we are already running Firedrinker Satyr

Please. Explain this to me because apparently to you guys I know nothing.

[LP, of the Fires]

Idk, you're the one arguing against the tide. That makes you either the holy man or the fool. If you're the holy man, we'll all choke on our losses while you lament the fact that we didn't drink from the word. If you're the fool, you'll just end up being ignored which isn't really that bad.

Either way, everyone should just test the card themselves and either take it or leave it. I drew and and succesfully cast(read won) 3 out of boarded games vs. esper last night when I was testing. It was never relevant, but I recall that you can redirect BE triggers to Jace.

[LaZerBurn]

I actually wouldn't mind -1 helix +1 2nd MM. I'm not sure helix is necessary on the creature plan.

I could go for that, I like having 6 ways to kill NVS

I've also considered only bringing in Cackler on the play and leaving in the Jet's on the draw.

[LP, of the Fires]

RE floating mana and burning earth, how you cast your spells makes a difference. Tapping mana then casting a rev, vs. announcing rev, then tapping mana results in damage happening at different times.

[Elricity]

DXI, one problem is we aren't running drinker but we are running cackler so mostly a wash.

The honest reason why it's problably a one of like his other one of's?

The deck is regularly only going to sideboard out about 4-8 cards in any one matchup. So, if you already have your sideboard slots done for say, GR, U, Mirror, etc, you don't actually need more because there's nothing left to take out. I haven't actually plugged through each iteration, mostly because it seems pretty obvious what is bad/good during play. But probably, after dealing with the sideboard for every other deck, he had one slot left and was like "fuck it, one more card for control that requires an entirely different answer".

All that said, I don't disagree with the possibility that burning earth is questionable. Without d-sphere though, it really does become "oops, I win" unless you run out of threats early on. You're
making them tap out on your combat so countermagic isn't an option. Then on their turn, you are making them tap out again which opens up more threats. There are occassions I can see it being bad and I wouldn't even consider this without early creature threats. However, I can also easily see board states where it's "heads I win, tails you lose".

P.S. People could lighten the fuck up.

[DXI-Edge]

Whatever.

As for your note LP, I've told Zeman it was bad before and he listened to me, which is why it came out of the list. Odds are he's going to play with it and cut it again, and the circle jerk that is the "hivemind" will cut it again and realise that it was the correct decision all along because Zeman told you.

Same reason why half of you were running Viashino Firstblade after Blind Obedience became "the" card against us, and the same reason why you are all clamoring at the idea that "OMG YP is good now of course!"

Think instead of blindly following. People respect your opinion more

[Purp]

RE floating mana and burning earth, how you cast your spells makes a difference. Tapping mana then casting a rev, vs. announcing rev, then tapping mana results in damage happening at different times.

Can you elaborate plz? Seems like something I want to know heading into this weekend.

[Aodh]

Why are you being so abrasive?

[JohnnyfnB]

"The people that play burn dont have a choice"

Gee, Michael Jacob, now I remember why your a complete asshole.

Why do I even bother turning on his stream all he does is bitch at the chat -_-

anyway...

Purp, the card deals damage TO YOU, which against esper is actually kinda a big deal.

You may not realise this, but staying at a high life total vs. them is actually a good thing to do, as sometimes you go to 2 and you kill them the next turn.

Burning Earth hurts them, sure. But you are still tapping out for a Burning Earth, which they can then rev in response if its late in the game, or they can just D-Sphere it and its a glorified Lightning Strike.

The card is not good. Seriously. Play it and tell me you actually are happy to resolve that
card on turn 4/5. Seriously

WE HAVE BETTER options vs. Esper. Why are we adding more cards other than Firedrinker Satyr that are ONLY good vs Control? Its a GOOD matchup. Lets stop wasting space in the sideboard with cards that are only good against one deck, cuz Imma be honesty, its terribad vs. Monsters. Again, all they have to do is resolve one fatty after it, and if you dont have a removal spell for it they win. It doesnt do ANYTHING so stop playing it

MJ played VS, an amazing super hero game that died. He played a burn deck in that game, so he's being a hypocrite.

[zemanjaski]

Im switching Burning Earth for a Chandra, goes in for more decks. Yeah, I forgot I tested BE and fucking hated it.

Anyway, that brings me to this list for the weekend's grinding (new season, must grind):

[deck=Zemanjaski's Boros Burn on 27-March-14]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
4 Rakdos Caclker
1 Spark Trooper
1 Warleader's Helix
1 Young Pyromancer
[/deck]

Zem =
master of sideboards

[zemanjaski]

MJ won Nationals with Mono Red, MJ is just being MJ.

[Elricity]

Seriously, arguing with Z should be a hobby. Remember toil / trouble instead of firstblade? Good times.

@Aodh, are you addressing that at DXI or LP? Cause uh, DXI is getting flamed pretty hard here for what isn't actually a dumb opinion. You know that burning earth will only work until esper and jund respond by changing their land base and spells? Cause that's going to happen and then we'll drop it and exploit a new hole because of their card changes.

All this deck does is exploit metagame holes. Firstblade was great, now it sucks. BO was great, now it's mediocre. Searing blood got cut entirely. The bonuses is it has a variety of different answers to every change.

This creature build? It'll get answered by frostburn weird, anger of the gods, drown in sorrow, etc. You know what those cards suck against? The haste package. They move to creature removal? Hey! We're back to square one and spell heavy them again.

nZ isn't kidding. No. Card. Is. Sacred.

Now lighten the fuck up.

Edit: HAH! Now kiss and make up. Privately. Unless you're hot and in which case, I'll sell tickets.

[Elricity]

I still want to try Akroan Hoplite at some point. Don't judge me!

[DXI-Edge]

I know MJ is I just found it funny.

And waiting for the collective "Oh yeah, BE is terribad"

Sigh. Should've been here an hour ago Zem. Would've saved me the time

I still think you should cut Chandra/the 4 drop for the 2nd Blind Obedience, as the mirror is increasing and it is still a good card in the mirror, and its also good vs. monsters still. I dunno, I still like it.

and I also think that Cackler should be Firedrinker Satyr, and here's why I believe the 2nd one.

Esper is going to start playing Nightveil Specter. We already proved that the hivemind is a beautiful thing and the esper winner, Kyle, said he loved Nightveil Specter vs. Burn.

on top of that, sometimes you can bring in Satyr vs. Mono-Black (i dont like it vs. BW) and a lot of lists are still running Nightveil Specter.

I also dont like Glare,
because the problem cards that are white for us are enchantments anyway. Elspeth we fly over, and once she gets to a high enough Loyalty your probably losing that game anyway, right? So might as well run Wear // Tear

rest of the sideboard is fine, not so much 1 ofs as much as "finishing my 4 ofs"

[LP, of the Fires]

Think instead of blindly following. People respect your opinion more

By the same token, talking down to people only works when they care about your opinion of them.

That's not a diss, simply a fact. You're being abrasive and such(which is fine and something most people here deal with on a regular basis) but without a foot to stand on. Like, if you're just blatantly right about something, sure, but even then, you generally need to have your shit backed up with hard logic for people to listen(or be like Z and have books written about it from a year ago).

Tl;dr: being an assehole doesn't suit you. You're just not good at it.

[Elricity]

Think instead of blindly following. People respect your opinion more

By the same token, talking down to people only works when they care about your opinion of them.

That's not a diss, simply a fact. You're being abrasive and such(which is fine and something most people here deal with on a regular basis) but without a foot to stand on. Like, if you're just blatantly right about something, sure, but even then, you generally need to have your shit backed up with hard logic for people to listen(or be like Z and have books written about it from a year ago).

Tl;dr: being an
assehole doesn't suit you. You're just not good at it.

?

Did we read different posts of his? Cause, uh, he didn't do what you're saying he did.

DXI, he's wanting to run cackler so he can slam them in the mirror and punish multiple BO/crack/charm draws. It'll last until the mirror adjusts. In every other matchup, yes, drinker is just better or cackler wasn't coming in anyway (monsters, GW, etc). And yes, if people start playing nightveil, searing blood auto comes back in. He cut it because they either weren't playing nightveil or weren't blocking with it anymore.

[LP, of the Fires]

Didn't I suggest chandra like 3 days ago >___________________>

[DXI-Edge]

You do realise that I fought this fight about Burning Earth 2 weeks ago, won it, and had the card cut?

I'm being an asshole because I dont like fighting the same battle twice, and I'm being an asshole because no matter what I say, people like you will argue until Zeman says something about the matter, and you will blindly agree with him.

I HAVE a foot to stand on. But you guys dont have to listen to me. The card is bad so I wont run it. You can lose with the card, but dont tell me I'm wrong and point out the best possible scenario and then get mad at me when I point out the worst possible scenario.

Anyway, Zeman cut the card so you can thank me later.

Edit: Chandra was also in the deck a week ago. And 2 weeks ago. Things change. I still dont think its good either, for the post I posted above reasoning why

[LP, of the Fires]

See, it's "the people like you" comment that I can't step away from. Nigga, you do not know me.

FUCK. OFF.

[zemanjaski]

Remember, Burn is almost a combo deck, minimalist sideboarding is optimal, so I like the small tweaks when constructing the deck; doesn't remove too many "combo pieces" unless you really need to.

[DXI-Edge]

See, it's "the people like you" comment that I can't step away from. Nigga, you do not know me.

FUCK. OFF.

I'd appreciate if you didnt use that language, thank you

[Elricity]

Still not certain on Chandra either. Feels like it's missing 4 creatures post board to be good.

[zemanjaski]

Can't sideboard into PyroRed without Chandra, der.

[zemanjaski]

Chandra is fine vs. Control but actively good vs. Little aggro, bw midrange and the mirror. Just getting more out of that last slot basically.

[LP, of the Fires]

This brings up something I was thinking about. In Ari Lax's article about the dredge deck he played, he called burn basically unplayable, which while an exaggeration, helped me figure out my hang up with the deck. While playing underpowered red cards isn't something new to me, unless your draws lined up right, you generally had to work much harder then your opponents to win which while not bad, isn't something I'm looking for in my tier 1 deck.

With YP in the mix, you're still playing mental gymnastics(more in fact) but your cards start functioning by themselves as opposed to waiting for your searing blood to come online, or staring at your opponents caryatid with your ash zealot in play along with a shock and a skullcrack against the guy sitting on 16 life or whatever. We've moved more into the realm of "cohesive strategy" because with YP in play our cards work together a lot better making our "combo&
quot; plan stronger.

[DXI-Edge]

Can't sideboard into PyroRed without Chandra, der.

Oh right. duh

Meh. Still not a fan, will test just to see

[LP, of the Fires]

See, it's "the people like you" comment that I can't step away from. Nigga, you do not know me.

FUCK. OFF.

I'd appreciate if you didnt use that language, thank you

You can't shit talk me then expect me to give a fuck about your feelings.

Nigga.