Mono Black Aggro

[LP, of the Fires]

Cliff notes:

I hate pack rat in this deck. he sucks.

I LOVE thrill kill assassin. He's bonkers.

I think 23 lands is the sweet spot. Pain seer as the only source of CA(and technically lifebane sometimes) makes flooding a real issue.

This deck won a PTQ in Seattle and the tourney report was awesome.

4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Herald of Torment
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ultimate Price
4 Mutavault
17 Swamp
2 Desecration Demon
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
3 Pain Seer
2 Temple of Silence
SB: 3 Doom Blade
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Desecration Demon
SB: 2 Erebos, God of the Dead
SB: 4 Dark Betrayal

[LP, of the Fires]

http://www.timevaultgames.com/Grinding% ... 99s%20Game

[dpaine88]

thanks for the link!! Great stuff

[Pedros]

Can we do anything to change burn matchup from terrible to good?

Changes in lifebane > specter and less dark betrayals (from 4 to 3-2) made this deck better vs black, control was very good matchup, so was monsters in my experience (lifebane, discard, terrors with evasive beaters). Red was one of the worst decks to face (creature heavy version), however burn seems also bad.

Whips and Lifelink wings does help?

[dpaine88]

Whip certainly does help but the burn matchup is gonna suck regardless.

Demon seems pretty good against them aside from Chained to the Rocks.


@LP- why do you hate Pack Rat? The list you posted is missing the singleton he ran btw.

[LP, of the Fires]

If you draw the rate in the mid/late game it's good, but early, you'd rather just have a generic 2 power beater most of the time. And yeah, I posted the list with a thrill kill in place of a pack rat. If you read the report, he actually ran pack rat because he couldn't find a 4th thrill-kill(after opening like 10 packs lol).

Burn matchup seems terrible regardless of what we do, but if I where gonna try to beat it, I'd add gift of orzhov to the board and only cast it either if they tap out or on a 3 toughness guy. It's worth noting that getting 2-for-1'd isn't that bad since life is much more important than cards in this matchup anyways.

[Pedros]

Problem is burn doesnt tap out ever. Only when they have phoenix and you dont have any creature ;/

Dont side out thoughtseizes ! It is counter intuiitive, but seizing burn gives u 1 or 2 life most of the time , sometimes more if u size stuff like spark trooper or seering blood.

[LP, of the Fires]

Oh I agree, thoughtseize def stays in. 4 thoughtseize, 4 duress, all day.

[dpaine88]

If you draw the rate in the mid/late game it's good, but early, you'd rather just have a generic 2 power beater most of the time. And yeah, I posted the list with a thrill kill in place of a pack rat. If you read the report, he actually ran pack rat because he couldn't find a 4th thrill-kill(after opening like 10 packs lol).

Burn matchup seems terrible regardless of what we do, but if I where gonna try to beat it, I'd add gift of orzhov to the board and only cast it either if they tap out or on a 3 toughness guy. It's worth noting that getting 2-for-1'd isn't that bad since life is much more important than cards in this matchup anyways.

I def agree with you that Rat is better mid/late for sure.

I mentioned that because I
think running 1-2 Rats is a good idea. I feel the card is too good not to run at least 1. That way you will most likely draw it mid/late.

Especially running 4 Mutavaults- Pack Rat gets a lot better.

[ADarkConfidant]

Very interesting... Can't help but feel that Maurader is kinda wasted here since they are only playing 1 2-drop and Lifebane/Herald/Demon have evasion.

Wonder what the rest of the decks were like? Where did you find the list?

I'm going to be running MBA in a TCG 5k this weekend and it seems like the tough decisions are really Demon and Mogis Maruder

The list was on DailyMTG.com. The other deck that beat it were Esper Control. But to get to top 8, let alone top 4, in such a Esper-saturated metagame it had to have beaten Esper a few times earlier.

[ADarkConfidant]

On the topic of Pack Rat, I think he's too slow compared to what your creatures can do on their own.
He's also bad in any control match (U/W/x or B/x).
All of your draws( especially with Pain Seer drawing extra, and Herald having Bestow) should be pretty good in this curve, as it is. Pack Rat is good at emulating good draws, but we don't need that.

RE: The comments on my decklist; I agree. Mogis's Marauder needs to go.
He's the poster child for what's wrong with this archetype: TOO MANY GOOD THREE DROPS.
He was awesome at the top of the curve, but now that he's one among many 3 drops( and 4 drops), his impact is less, and he is far less useful.
Kept getting hands with him and other 3 drops, where I'd have to either mulligan or hope to draw 1 and 2 costing creatures.
I like the Desecration Demons mainboard, and will probably emulate that PTQ winning list( or at least something close to it). So far,
this deck has been awesome in testing, and DesiD shuts em down. If they sacrifice to tap him down, my other boys get through!

On the lands question, I ran 22 for a while, and it was too tight. Just always barely made it, and that's not good for aggro. We need consistency. I never tried 24 lands, but I saw a 24 lander flood out a bunch on Star City Games Open, so I never thought it necessary.
Ever since I switched to 23 lands a week ago, things have been perfect. I think 23 is the number. I'm doing 19 Swamps, 4 Mutvaults. I saw the PTQ winning list with 2 temples, which I don't think belong in an aggro deck. That guy probably didn't put too much thought into it, and just played with them.


My argument against temples is that in their best case scenario, Pain Seer does their job with a 2/2 body.
One wants a temple land when: 1. They really need to draw another land, and can't risk drawing a spell, or 2. They have
too many lands and can't afford to hit another.
In those scenario, Scry 1 shoots the card that we don't want to the bottom in hopes of seeing the next card. We basically advance 2 cards instead of one( though we only keep 1). If the top card IS what we want, then we're fine, but we're glad we checked at the expense of being down 1 turn on our mana curve.

In that same set of scenarios Pain Seer will either: 1. Reveal the land you didn't want to draw at the expense of 0 life, and then give you the card the temple would have given you as your draw. Or 2. Reveal the spell you didn't want to draw at the cost of some life, but give you the potential land underneath it as well(that the temple would have given you) which could make the unwanted spell suddenly castable and a more relevant card.
In the case of the top card being desirable, Pain Seer simply gives you an extra card, as you would expect it to.
Either way, I think it eliminates the need for and emulates the benefits of a temple scry land.
nHaving an untapped Swamp( or Mutavault) will make the curve more consistent and put less time on your opponent's clock.

Anyway, sorry for the long reply, but I'm just passionate about Magic. I also really want to make this deck archetype work, and am excited to see the recent developments, successes, and discussions going on.

[dpaine88]

Great Post Dark confidant. I am starting to lean towards the PTQ list as well. I still do think 1 Pack Rat could be decent though.

I am going to run the PTQ list tonight at Wednesday Night Magic in prep for the TCG 5k this weekend.

Will report back on how it feels!

[dpaine88]

So I looked up the PTQ decklists cause I was a little confused. But the PTQ Seattle guy who won with the list LP posted.

His friend Jaron also made top8 of the same PTQ with the same deck..

[rcwraspy]

I think the "pack rat is bad against control" line is wrong, or at least overly simplistic.

Going all in on Pack Rat against a Supreme Verdict deck can lead to you getting blown out, yes, but it also FORCES them to have the answer. Now, we all know they have 8 MD answers - 4x Verdict and 4x Detention Sphere - but it's an instant win if they don't have it.

That said, I personally feel that the deck should have access to both Thrill-kill and Pack Rat. One main, one in the board if you can fit it.

[dpaine88]

I think if youre gonna do that , you might as well just play out all your creatures like normal but you wont be vulnerable to d-sphere, just verdict.

[Deht]

The list at the top of the page is from PTQ Corvallis, in Oregon. UW Control won PTQ Seattle.

I like Pack Rat and Mogis's Marauder in this deck as they both function as good ways to close out games that are running long, I don't think either of them are a "must include" but I am enjoying having some number of both in the list. I do like the inclusion of Demon in the main as it does need a big creature to take up that 4 drop spot.

From a matchup standpoint, what are people feeling your worse matchup is and how are you approaching it?

[dpaine88]

I played the deck more a month ago before R/W burn got popular and on the map--but since then it appears it is a very bad matchup for us. The PTQ guy did beat it though but seemed like he had luck on his side for sure.

Approaching it by having 4 duress in the SB and 2 more demons.

Red in general doesnt feel that great for us.

Rest of the matchups are good though.

BBV can be a tough card to handle but with 4x Lifebane and TS, he isnt that big of an issue.

[ADarkConfidant]

The deck I test most commonly with is Mono Red Burn, and it whoops me 2 out of 3 times, basically.
It's naturally a bad matchup. I tried running devour flesh, and it won a few games (sacrificing the burn targets to gain life and effectively counter the burn spell), but that's not a good strategy to lean on too much.

[ADarkConfidant]

I think the "pack rat is bad against control" line is wrong, or at least overly simplistic.

Going all in on Pack Rat against a Supreme Verdict deck can lead to you getting blown out, yes, but it also FORCES them to have the answer. Now, we all know they have 8 MD answers - 4x Verdict and 4x Detention Sphere - but it's an instant win if they don't have it.

That said, I personally feel that the deck should have access to both Thrill-kill and Pack Rat. One main, one in the board if you can fit it.

Yeah, that was simplistic.
To further explain my argument, I feel that most players are ready for a turn 2 Pack Rat, and will have great answers for it( especially post sideboard).
In addition D Sphere and Verdict, there's also
Elspeth, who I've seen outrace late game Pack Rats, very often. The Rats can't get through the 3 tokens, and if they go over 3 Rats, the minus ability kills them all.
Though this isn't efficient, it is winnable sometimes. However, at the expense of tossing out great aggressive creatures( via Pack Rat's ability), I feel like it's a misuse of resources.

So I guess Pack Rat being bad isn't really the statement I want to say, but rather that being aggressive is better in comparison, in my opinion.
I really feel that U/W already isn't good against us( especially Esper!), and I just don't think we need Pack Rat.
The reason I think this deck idea is good and can work is simply because other decks have slowed down to use wider mana bases and Esper can lose against by simply missing one land drop.
Until turn 4 verdict, they basically probably can't stop us. Post Verdict, we can recover easily and finish them out. Running 4 Thoughtseize( and post sideboard Duress) we can easily get rid of Verdict,
making their sweeper less effective.
With Pack Rat, I feel that the likelihood of making a quick assault before they actually resolve a sweeper lessens.

[dpaine88]

So I ran the PTQ list at Wedneday Magic - full of PTQ grinders.

Played vs
Mono Black Devotion
Jund Monsters
Esper Control
G/W aggro.

Went 4-0.

Thoughts:

--I did flood an awful lot...the scry lands might not be as bad as we think. Since the curve is pretty packed, it wouldn't be that hard to play around. Holding you back from curving out is shitty though.

-- Didnt miss Pack Rat, at all.

--- Thrill Kill was a beast...escept vs Control but could be worse I guess.

---I am not sure which of the 2-drops should be 4-of's. Looking at the metagame breakdown here http://www.gatheringmagic.com/nickvigab ... arch-2014/

Esper(20%) and MBD(10%) and B/W Midrange(10%) make up 40% of the field.

Maybe we should be doing 4 Pain Seer and 3 Thrill-Kill Assasin.

Demon was pretty
solid- found myself wishing I had it a lot more often.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Anyone testing spiteful returned? Connoly Woods was running it in his build.

[dpaine88]

I didnt test it but a guy sitting next to me was running it in his and loved it.

He seems good against Control. Thrill Kill is better vs creature decks.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Maybe worth trying out.

[dpaine88]

For sure.

I am considering trying Mogis Marauder over the 2 Demons. Maybe cut a land after that for 4th Pain Seer.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I hated demon when I tried it.

[LP, of the Fires]

I enjoyed demon. When it's bad it's terrible, but our deck has an actual curve unlike mono-black which means when they can't stop it, you just swing for lethal.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think maybe I just had bad luck.

[dpaine88]

anyone tested WITH the scry lands?

[Lightning_Dolt]

You know my opinion on this.

[dpaine88]

From testing or theory

[Lightning_Dolt]

Testing.

[Lightning_Dolt]

In other decks mind you.

[zemanjaski]

The value of scrylands is pretty low in this deck; burn needs to run them anway, so when you're already in the market for fixing, they're obviously bonkers.

Conley uses the bestow creatures to fill out his highend, so that his deck is full of high impact top decks if he does flood out. 19 Swamp + 4 Mutavault is the correct manabase.

[LP, of the Fires]

I rather enjoyed the scrylands. I don't have the luxury of playing the 2 mana bestow guy because he's much worse then the other 2's I'm playing(thrill kill and pain seer) and I'm reasonably certain I want the 4/4/4 package of removal, removal, thoughtseize leaving me rather lean on manasinks, thus in the market for hedges against flooding.

[zemanjaski]

19 Swamp
4 Mutavalt

4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Herald of Torment
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mogis's Marauder
3 Desecration Demon

4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Devour Flesh
4 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard
2 Devour Flesh
4 Dark Betrayal
4 Doom Blade
4 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

[LP, of the Fires]

I don't think mogis marauder does anything worth doing.

[Aodh]

Extort dork helps with flooding, and gives you more 1-drops?

[Lightning_Dolt]

[dpaine88]

I see you posted the top4 GP Cinci List Zem.

You like that better than the PTQ winning one we have been discussing?

[deck]4 Rackdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pain Seer
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
4 Ultimate Price
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Herald of Torment
4 Hero’s Downfall
2 Desecration Demon
4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Deceit
17 Swamp


sb:
4 Duress
2 Desecration Demon
2 Erebos
3 Doomblade
4 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

I feel like the GP one is a bit light on 2-drops with only Pain Seer.

Seems to me like it would make sense for these decks to have Mogis Maruader OR Desecration Demon.... Not running Demon frees up more 2-drops and makes Marauder better.

[dpaine88]

I started testing the Conley list...and I'm pretty fucking impressed.

[deck]Lands
18 x Swamp
4 x Mutavault
Creatures
4 x Tormented Hero
4 x Rakdos Cackler
4 x Pain Seer
4 x Spiteful Returned
1 x Pack Rat
4 x Herald Of Torment
4 x Mogis's Marauder
3 x Lifebane Zombie
Noncreature Spells
4 x Thoughtseize
2 x Bile Blight
2 x Ultimate Price
2 x Hero's Downfall

Sideboard
1 x Lifebane Zombie
2 x Dark Betrayal
1 x Duress
3 x Gift of Orzhova
2 x Doom Blade
1 x Hero’s Downfall
3 x Pack Rat
2 x Devour Flesh[/deck]

I made a few small changes like cutting Pack Rat for the 4th Lifebane Zombie and a few tweaks to the removal suite.


The deck kicks some serious ass. The Spiteful Returned dude is surprisingly good.

Mogis has been pretty dope too.. Great synergy with Spiteful and Pain Seer.

Bestowing Spiteful on turn 4 often feels better than Demon.


Might seriously run this tomorrow..