SOA Mafia: Season One -- Day Four

[rcwraspy]

WitchHunt was the one of the least-town people and then he just supported a Jamie-lynch wagon without commiting a vote. Maybe he's waiting for a votecount or doesn't want me lynched just yet. Either way he's very not-town but barely scum at all.

huh?

Do you think there is more than 1 "neutral" player this game? Do you think there's a full-fledged third faction other than town and scum? Otherwise this doesn't make any sense to me.

I wasn't sure about voting Jamie until right now, but I'm fine doing so based on this post. Big scum points to someone who waffles so hard on another player's alignment.

Jamie, this is how I read that: "I know he's town because I'm scum and he's not on my team, but others don't know I'm scum so to keep up the illusion I have to throw some mud."

[rcwraspy]

have we gotten a claim from Jamie yet?

[Stardust]

Stardust, you are not following up with your questions, why?

I think that's the only question I didn't follow up on, and I was aware that I let it slip. There was one WitchHunt post that struck me funny, which is why I asked that question. Things were looking better for WitchHunt (and for Jamie) when I thought about the question again later, so I didn't care anymore.

"Dechs, your case on Jamie is extremely weak. The post I pointed to as reading town is so overtly aggressive. Nothing there is underhanded - he's stating his intention very clearly. If you actually believe his story (I do), it makes perfect sense in context and looks to me like that's his natural way of playing this game. The error that he made with kpaca's vote is also something that a townie is more likely to do. Certainly it must be an error, because scum would never intentionally distort the truth that far, but I also think that scum would never make that error (and jump on kpaca in error) to begin with."

Go ahead and walk me through, specifically, why you are so eager to lynch Jamie.

Kpaca said so is not an acceptable response. Think for yourself, please.

What makes you think I would say "kpaca said so"?

I'm not that eager to lynch Jamie. I'm asking him questions, aren't I? I gave my reasoning when I voted and I still believe he's a decent wagon, though some of his responses feel pretty good and I'm a little uncomfortable with LMD's response to this whole thing for some reason. Can't quite put my finger on why, but I don't have time to nail it down right now. I want to take the time to consider an LMD-WitchHunt scumteam before we lynch Jamie (if we lynch Jamie). I'll work on getting through a better breakdown tomorrow.

LMD, you're asking Jamie what his read is on me. What's your read on me?

Jamie, you said that RedNihilist is one of your top suspects, but that you don't want to vote him since you're feeling emotional. Throughout the game you've made a couple little digs at Red's contributions. Why did you not bring that up as a major factor in your suspicion? You were pointing to him as scum with those digs, right?

[rezombad]

Because this: "The dog's got a point."

Why an lmd-wichhunt scumteam?

Are you saying you think they're both scummy, but not scummier than Jamie? If so, why would you be consider them to be a team?

Do their actions lead you to believe that they can only be acum if the other one is?

If so, why is your vote on Jamie?

If you come to the conclusion that lmd-witchhunt is the scum team, who would you have lynched first?

If that person flipped town, would you have the other person lynched as well? Or woupdbone being town clear the other in your eyes?

[rezombad]

Would one*

[rezombad]

True, but I was coming fresh out of my RVS when I did mine, his was the first post out of day two. I personally feel like the difference in timing should be more relevant, and it's not the first time he made the joke defense. After Kpaca pointed out it was something noob scum would do and pressure gets put on him it's suddenly a joke. I don't like it.

Trying to come up with questions on the spot was a little more difficult than I thought it would be. Right when the request was made, DK started his descent into crumbling and my attention became more focused on him. Jamie's on my radar again currently, as my initial read on him was town, but like I said he's been describing his "mistakes" as "I'm an idiot" and "it was a joke" and it has me a bit put off at this point. Looking at it his posts with those excuses in mind it's making keep a closer eye on him, questions to ask are starting to come more obvious to me.

Pedit: I'm a bit happier with this post Jamie, but Stardust did still pose a question to you.

Do you honestly think that Jamie's comment at the beginning of day 2 was not a joke/jest/not serious?

Can you please point out Jamie's mistakes and where he used this defense to defend against criticism?

[Stardust]

Because this: "The dog's got a point."

Yeah, that's me agreeing with him, which is a lot different than "The dog said so".

Why an lmd-wichhunt scumteam?

Jamie brought up this possibility, and a quick spot check of the posts he was pointing to show that it's not unreasonable.

I'll answer the rest of your questions tomorrow once I've had a chance to check this out.

[WitchHunt]

I'd rather have a sleb who can't communicate out of the game than a sleb who can.

Rianalnn if you show some actual intention by voting someone scummy (like stardust) I'd be behind you 100%

*kpaca listens to your assertion he can't communicate and wonders if you are dense*

*kpaca also hears your assertion he should vote for "someone scummy like stardust*

*kpaca looks at your vote, not on stardust*

SNORT

Please vote for anyone. It can be a random vote. It can be a vote on me. I want you to vote to lynch day one.

*kpaca looks at you*

*kpaca looks at last vote count*

*kpaca looks back at you*

Wow I'm a massive idiot. woops.
Ok I'm satisfied.

unvote

Here

@Stardust
The first time I said you were scum was joke. Saying "let's catch scum" is like saying "I'm going to reduce your life point value to zero in this game of mtg". A p bold statement.
If you're talking about the second time I did... My entire beef with Rianalnn was a mistake on my part since I can't even look at the votecount properly. I invited him to join a bandwagon of 2 people with me so I could explore what kind of restriction he was playing under.

Here (in response to Stardust asking if he's being viewed as scummy, why isn't Jamie voting for him)

Please vote for anyone. It can be a random vote. It can be a vote on me. I want you to vote to lynch day one.

Dechs, I'm not asking him to rvs. I am looking for information on the restriction he's playing under.

Vote Jamie

This is the contradiction you think you found? You're really grasping at straws. I'd hate to bring up that I'm a moron again, but I wanted confirmation that Rianalnn could vote for someone- anyone - and get any information about whatever restriction he's playing under. The vote would be random (or I specifically listed Stardust, my randomvote at the beginning of the game) to try to make the vote as easy and informationless as possible for him.

It turns out he had already voted and I'm blind.

I mean feel free to find scumtells or dumbtells out of that situation but I feel that's some weak case right there.

Here (Even if it was weak from DK)

rianalnn that post was a joke. Ham was being hounded for flavor and then he gets targeted.
The flavor-reads were actually useless so the situation was comical. Even if I watched the show I'd value flavor zero or less.

And most recently into day two, here.

All it did was make me raise my eyebrow here and catch my attention, my first thought was definitely not, "Ah he must be joking/jesting/not serious with that post". I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one as well. Is there anything in particular that makes you feel it was intended to be a joke?

[Jamie]

huh?

Do you think there is more than 1 "neutral" player this game? Do you think there's a full-fledged third faction other than town and scum? Otherwise this doesn't make any sense to me.

I wasn't sure about voting Jamie until right now, but I'm fine doing so based on this post. Big scum points to someone who waffles so hard on another player's alignment.

Jamie, this is how I read that: "I know he's town because I'm scum and he's not on my team, but others don't know I'm scum so to keep up the illusion I have to throw some mud."

He's brought up cases against I consider to be town. This is acting against town.
He's making convincing cases a lot of the time. His posts do a good job at finding his own conclusions to vote people, instead of just bandwagoning. He's not very scummy.
Therefore, his posts read barely scum and incredibly not-town.

Jamie, you said that RedNihilist is one of your top suspects, but that you don't want to vote him since you're feeling emotional. Throughout the game you've made a couple little digs at Red's contributions. Why did you not bring that up as a major factor in your suspicion? You were pointing to him as scum with those digs, right?

Like I said, I wanted to let a few more answers to outstanding questions appear before rednihilist knows I'm not casually slinging mud.

[WitchHunt]

I'll admit it's somewhat of an unconscious habit of mine, but I prefer not to just throw my vote around. If you look at my previous games I do have a tendency not to vote on someone unless I'm sure. Looking back on your statement toward me, just because I've stated I have you on my radar, doesn't mean I'm gunning for your lynch.

[rezombad]

I'll admit it's somewhat of an unconscious habit of mine, but I prefer not to just throw my vote around. If you look at my previous games I do have a tendency not to vote on someone unless I'm sure. Looking back on your statement toward me, just because I've stated I have you on my radar, doesn't mean I'm gunning for your lynch.

What is this in response to?

[WitchHunt]

In response to Jamie after reading back through his posts a bit.

[imopen2]

Vote count #6:

Jaime(3): rianalnn, stardust, red
Not Voting(6): lmd, rez, ham, rcw, witchhunt, jaime
With 9 alive, it is 5 to lynch

[rcwraspy]

I'm ok with a Jamie lynch but would like a claim before moving past L-2.

[Stardust]

Sorry guys, don't have the time or motivation for this today. I'll get back on top of this game Monday.

[rezombad]

vote stardust

[rezombad]

Jamie, a town/scum list if you would.

[Mcdonalds]

@stardust/Jamie can one or both of you please point me to these posts you are talking about where I interact with witchhunt?

[RedNihilist]

I'll probably not be able to follow the thread until monday as well.

[hamfactorial]

Real life getting in the way of mafia glory, but I'll get back on the horse after the weekend.

etc

[rezombad]

Real life getting in the way of mafia glory, but I'll get back on the horse after the weekend.

etc

Come back with a t/s list

[hamfactorial]

Sure thing, which side would you like to be on?

[rezombad]

Whichever. Just provide reasoning on your reads

[Stardust]

Unvote, Vote LMD.

This feels right. LMD's contributions to the Jamie wagon amounted to very little and didn't feel like normal LMD blazing his own trail, it felt like LMD trying to either cast suspicion or force a contribution or set up to get me lynched following Jamie's mislynch, take your pick. That was followed up by LMD ignoring my question to him (about my own alignment) while simultaneously asking a question about himself. Going back to Day 1, LMD has his typical involvement, but I disliked his early interactions with me (voting, then unvoting for unclear reasons - and another of my questions that he dodged on that same subject).

WitchHunt I'm not sure on. His question to LMD, and LMD's subsequent response (here) feel fabricated somehow, but that's not enough to go off even if LMD does flip scum. WitchHunt's own contributions to the Jamie wagon were okayish, but kind of felt forced. Like he's forcing himself to post, to find more, to respond. I had a town read on him Day 1, so he's more or less an unknown to me at this point.

rezmo, I think that this post makes your questions irrelevant, but feel free to prod me for answers if you want them.

[rezombad]

Your post doesn't answer all of them.

Also, where are you at on Jamie?

[Stardust]

LMD being scum makes Jamie town. At this point that seems most likely.

[RedNihilist]

God, I guess I have to reread things over.
I'm not really happy of your choice of letting Jamie go without getting anything more from him than a simple handwave.

[Stardust]

What are you calling a simple handwave? I thought his response to this pressure wasn't bad at all.

[Mcdonalds]

LMD being scum makes Jamie town. At this point that seems most likely.

How?

[Stardust]

Because this: "The dog's got a point."

Why an lmd-wichhunt scumteam?

Are you saying you think they're both scummy, but not scummier than Jamie? If so, why would you be consider them to be a team?

Do their actions lead you to believe that they can only be acum if the other one is?

If so, why is your vote on Jamie?

If you come to the conclusion that lmd-witchhunt is the scum team, who would you have lynched first?

If that person flipped town, would you have the other person lynched as well? Or woupdbone being town clear the other in your eyes?

WitchHunt's question and LMD's response both felt forced somehow. Like they were talking with a scum buddy.

Both were scummy and in need of a readthrough to decide if they were scummier than Jamie. See above.

No.

Because I hadn't done the work yet.

Whoever is scummier. LMD in this case.

If one or the other flipped town, that would negate this one tell. If there's little more beyond that, I would drop the case, but it definitely wouldn't clear the other as town. That for their other behaviour to judge.

[Stardust]

LMD being scum makes Jamie town. At this point that seems most likely.

How?

Answer my question.

[rcwraspy]

hectic weekend. will re-read this evening.

[Mcdonalds]

LMD being scum makes Jamie town. At this point that seems most likely.

How?

Answer my question.

Think you're trying to bus Jamie

[Mcdonalds]

Sure I agreed with witchhunt, but so, is there not something to be said that someone whom is thought to be scum outright stating he doesn't have an opinion on someone with one of the highest post counts?

Now answer mine.

[Stardust]

Bussing doesn't work for me. We now know that there are only two scum. No matter how many scum I catch, people always suspect me. Bussing Jamie here would let me live a couple days, then lose in the endgame.

To answer your question, I think you're scum based on your behaviour. I also think that your interactions with Jamie (if you are scum) clear him as town. Talking specifically about your interactions with the wagon here, this has nothing to do with WitchHunt.

[Mcdonalds]

What post confirmed there were two scum again?

[Stardust]

DK flipping SK. Assuming we have a mafia team, there are two of them.

[rcwraspy]

why? simply because of the low number of players in the game? Sure, it's more likely, but is it really a guarantee?

1Sk
3Scum
6town

Would that really be too unbalanced?

[Stardust]

I think so. An SK makes a game like that pretty easily broken. Lynch town, mafia kills town, SK kills town, lynch SK results in a Day 2 mafia victory (with only one mislynch).

SK's are kind of a balancing force since they'll try to work against whatever faction is currently leading, but they are more anti-town than anti-mafia and need to be balanced accordingly. We know there's a (presumably town) bulletproof. Maybe there are a bunch more powerful defensive roles on townside to balance a three mafia game. Until we see that, I'm going to assume the 99% probable 2 mafia scenario.

[hamfactorial]

Ok, I'm caught back up and happy that the game is progressing with more contributions.

I believe that rcwraspy can be considered town by his interaction with me at the start of the day. I'm inclined to believe that kpaca is also town based on his dogged (heh) hunting of fishy statements and contradictions during day 1. Kpaca could easily change that perception for me just based on the dog gimmick.

Jamie dropped the "explain the NK unprompted" scum tell but had a calm approach to the early day 2 pressure. I'm not sure this clears him, so I'll review the last game to see how he responded to his wagon. I think he was Saulus, so the behavior may not be duplicated as either town or scum this game.

Stardust is being Stardust, and I always have trouble reading experienced players. I lean towards town based on his tendency to employ a shotgun approach to applying pressure. I think his sudden switch to LMD is either another tactic or a strong read that I don't understand yet.

I'm getting scummy vibes from RedN but I can't explain why. His frustration towards Stardust in this post has me dubious -

God, I guess I have to reread things over.
I'm not really happy of your choice of letting Jamie go without getting anything more from him than a simple handwave.

It reads more like scum annoyed that a mislynch wagon has disbanded than townie relief that a mislynch wagon has disbanded.

I don't know what to think of LMD. I'm historically awful at reading him, I suspect him as scum every game. His interactions with Stardust will be interesting.

I glossed over Witchhunt and rezombad's posts so I'll go through them again. Nothing I saw stood out, but perhaps that's my own fault for expecting scummy things to scream at me from the rooftops.