[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[zemanjaski]

Yeah ~ looking at it, I don't see any matchups that would feel particularly bad ~ which is always a good sign; more opportunities to outplay people etc.

[zemanjaski]

This might be the only deck I have ever seen where Slaughter Games is actually playable ~ which is kinda sweet.

[Alex]

Yeah ~ looking at it, I don't see any matchups that would feel particularly bad ~ which is always a good sign; more opportunities to outplay people etc.

Point of discussion: Weakest cards in the posted list? I don't feel as though Cyclonic Rift is particularly strong, it could probably just be another Unsummon or even a Thought Scour. I know that it's there for Planeswalkers and to serve as a late game board wipe, but it looks like most of the time it's just there to unsummon Planeswalkers, which seems weak to me.

Maybe Mizzium Mortars -> Bonfire of the Damned would be a good move, too,
especially with the available looting. It IS anti-synergistic with Duskmantle Seer, but it seems better in a wider array of circumstances than Mizzium Mortars. Maybe I'm nuts but I think I'd rather have the ability to Bonfire at Instant speed occasionally.

[Link]

The grixis deck is basically what my GFs deck would've looked like with Snapcasters.

Cyclonic rift as a 1 of is good. One of the weaknesses UBR has is lack of enchantment removal, and rift can hit those as well as planesalkers. (With assemble the legion's out there, it isn't the worse. If you tap out for a seer and they tap out for that, well the race is truly on).


I don't know about bonfires. Relying on miracles for game swings isn't what this deck wants when she played. You want to keep the board clear and under control and the tempo in your favor. Mortaring a Loxodon Smiter >>> occasional board wipes. T2 smiters were definitely a problem against her deck from what I remember.

The hardest part of the deck is when to land a seer imo. Without runechanter's pike your clock is definitely never going to be aggressive enough to force the other deck to play into your counterspells.

Junk rites is still a
tough match-up. Vault of the archangel makes it impossible to race if they can get it online. If you just pass until they play a spell they'll have too much value in their hands and start chumping thrags into counterspells becuase they'll have more. If you tap out for a Seer they get the thragtusk gravy train going.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah ~ looking at it, I don't see any matchups that would feel particularly bad ~ which is always a good sign; more opportunities to outplay people etc.

Point of discussion: Weakest cards in the posted list? I don't feel as though Cyclonic Rift is particularly strong, it could probably just be another Unsummon or even a Thought Scour. I know that it's there for Planeswalkers and to serve as a late game board wipe, but it looks like most of the time it's just there to unsummon Planeswalkers, which seems
weak to me.

Maybe Mizzium Mortars -> Bonfire of the Damned would be a good move, too, especially with the available looting. It IS anti-synergistic with Duskmantle Seer, but it seems better in a wider array of circumstances than Mizzium Mortars. Maybe I'm nuts but I think I'd rather have the ability to Bonfire at Instant speed occasionally.

Great minds Alex!

I think Cyclonic Rift and Mortars are the weakest cards as well. I would probably lean towards Thought Scour and Ultimate Price; or maybe a second Izzet Charm (I think that card is pretty fantastic).

[Link]

After heavily playtesting the deck, mortars definitely shores up its weaknesses.

Izzet charm is good though, I would play 2, but I wouldn't cut mortars for it

[Link]

hmmm actually I can't think of any instance where you would want mortars over a dreadbore other than overloading it (which this deck doesn't do), so scratch what I said.

But I do think you are undervaluing cyclonic rift too much here

[zemanjaski]

I have reservations ~ hasn't your version got no Augurs or Snapcasters? I think that changes the relative value of many of the cards significantly.

Also, any wise souls out there got any opinion on BG or BUG heartless summoning? I can see BUG Heartless built around Thragtusk plus Havengul Lich and other engines; with cards like Thought Scour and Forbidden Alchemy / Mulch / Whatever to set it all up. Of course, that might just be worse than Junkrites (although, once in motion, you have unlimited value, so long as you don't lose two liches to a single sweeper).

[Link]

Well here's the history of the version. The current version doesn't have augurs or snapcaster

But the ORIGINAL versions that we played through and through to make the deck work are basically this deck WITHOUT snapcasters:

In place of snaps were: Well just more of each of the "removal" spells. Basically the sad budget version of this deck, imagine it -4 snaps, +4 any sorc/instants. Aka extra dreadbore, a mortars, an extra spear, extra syncopate.



AKA: I understand you reservations on how valid my opinion can be on this deck. But please, please don't dismiss my opinions here. I know very much how this deck plays out and its weaknesses/strengths were. Since the obvious weakness was not having the right removal for the situation (aka the snapcasterless problem), I toss those aside. The snapcasters make the deck competitive in terms of adding extreme value to
the cards you were playing and the versatility of the answers yes, but that doesn't somehow mean we were playing with different removal/counterspells/duskmantle seers.

So now here's what I can tell you about how the deck fell short because I literally grinded 100s of games with different version of this archetype against all placing lists and archetypes:

Weakness:
-Weak to lifegain, lets deck's stabilize so that they can get their engines online
-No lifegain of your own to offset duskmantle (tribute to hunger is not enough)
-No engine (Sphinx's/unburial rites)
-No reliable boardwipe (can start to be overrun by Wolf/Beast tokens)

In the article it says "you can grind games out with Rakdos' return and think twice etc. or you can play tempo based game!" I don't agree with this fully. Grindy games are the ones you want to avoid and are your weakest match-ups. You WILL get outvalued by junk rites eventually. You will be overrun by thrag tokens and their
ability to get multiple creatures out of 1 card. Cavern of souls into AoS is usually game, and with the lifegain they force through it can get to that point.

This deck is at its strongest when it feels like a race, when the pressures on. Don't expect to be a grindy snapcaster beatdown like UWr or Esper can sometimes be, you don't have enough engines to make it to the finish lines in those games.

You want to answer them straight away and start the beatdown. Like I said seriously the hardest part of the deck is figuring out when to play duskmantle.

Other than that enjoy it. There is definitely a lot of room to outplay your opponents, bait them to play something destroy the rest of their hand, excellent mindgames.

The only suggestion I have is the lack of Runechanter's pike. I think the acceleration of your clock IS important, and it helps beat down lifegain decks through the msot classic way possible: Swing for way more than they can lifegain. I don't know what I'd cut to make room, and I'm
not going to make arguments on how to make the list as streamlined as possible BECAUSE I haven't playtested wiht snaps. I'm just here to give my opinions on the archetype itself and hope you take it seriously because this is a rare occasion where, by a twist of fate, I've actually had experience with an archetype prior to a "popularizing" of it.


And if you want a playtest partner on Cockatrice I think I'm as good a contender as any since I can give you a real run for your money since I've had so much experience with this deck and how to exploit its weaknesses.

[zemanjaski]

Its not that I don't value your opinion, it is that I think your opinion is on a substantially different deck! Eg: the value of cards like Duskmantle Seer, Thought Scour and Desperate Ravings go up massively when you're running Snapcaster Mage or Augur (since your card advantage now draws into straight 2-for-1s, putting you even further ahead etc). This creates a lot of velocity for the deck, which can give it much different matchups than your version (eg: this deck can be more aggressive vs Junkrites, which may help).

[Kazekirimaru]

Also, any wise souls out there got any opinion on BG or BUG heartless summoning? I can see BUG Heartless built around Thragtusk plus Havengul Lich and other engines; with cards like Thought Scour and Forbidden Alchemy / Mulch / Whatever to set it all up. Of course, that might just be worse than Junkrites (although, once in motion, you have unlimited value, so long as you don't lose two liches to a single sweeper).

BUG Heartless Summoning with Griselbrand, Evil Twin, mana dorks, and Crypt Ghast is amazeballs. You pretty much just win once brand hits the table. Turn four or so. Clone for added injury. I've played it and against it and it's just ridiculous. Though
the version I played was 4 color and had Nicol Bolas, Plainswalker.

[Link]

well I won't step out of line here and say you're wrong, velocity is a good word. Hopefully the snapcaster mages shore up all the weaknesses I've experienced, but I still think they are there to some degree, snaps or not. But I guess I can't say until I playtest against the snap version.

Up for some testing right now? I'm trying to stay up late to get my rhythm going for pre-release.

[zemanjaski]

x-spells seem particularly important for exaggerating the duskmantle seer's trigger and breaking synergy; you take a small amount of damage, to draw a spell that can then do substantially more (eg: Return or Syncopate).

[Link]

...is that a yes?


>_>
play.woogerworks.com
Port: 4747

Game: FoS Test
pw: zemanj

[zemanjaski]

I am at work good sir.

[Link]

Location: Melbourne, Australia

I see.

Anyone else up late at night?

I see you there Alex.

[lorddax]

Rawr!

[Kazekirimaru]

Red mages don't sleep.

[Alex]

I see you there Alex.

I'm always online, I'm logged in on my phone.

[Link]

There you guys are, was worried for a minute I'd have to goldfish to stay awake.

well I'm in the room I posted above if either of you want to try a list against any archetype/prepare your mind to be playing magic this late at night tomorrow

[Kazekirimaru]

Ah.

Looks like I'm not going to the Pre-release.

Work is a bummer.

[Alex]

I'm like half asleep, but let's play.

[lorddax]

Someone play me on MODO! Had my second quit out because people feel red shouldnt not rush thru its plays

[lorddax]

Actually just logged into Wooger. Buddy me under the same SN

Someone message me if on

[zemanjaski]

Red mages don't sleep.

Pretty much yeah

[Kazekirimaru]

You know what? Fuck the pre-release. I'm not even disappointed. If I wanted to be in close proximity of a bunch of obese people and bombarded by waves of unbearable body odor, I'd go to Walmart.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]Grixis Duskmantle[/deck]

Notes:
- I really wanted to find improvements in the mana base, but Fabiano really aced it I think!
- I opted to find the extra Thought Scours at the expense of some of the other draw; Thought Scour is really important early for stabalizing with Snapcaster against aggro (enabling the cheapest possible 2-for-1) and fills your GY to make your Snapcasters more powerful. It is also a cheap cantrip early, which is not irrelevant in this sort of deck ~ your late game is already quite
powerful, so just surviving long enough to get an active Duskmantle seems like the most pressing concern.
- I opted for a single Ultimate Price; its nice to be able to answer Restoration Angel (either as a blocker or killing what it is blinking), a Angel of Serenity or Thundermaw Hellkite at instant speed. This also has the impact of making Tribute to Hunger more powerful (and Snapcaster by extension, I suppose).

I don't want to run a SB without playing the deck first, but Fabiano's is assuredly a good place to start.

[Alex]

Currently losing horribly to Cockatrice's terrible shuffle mechanics.

[Sasky]

Not going for prerelease here too. I really hate sealed because I'm bad at it. I can draft competently but sealed is just a train wreck every time.

Zem's newest iteration of the grixis deck looks strong, taking out the weak cards for better ones. I'll be sleeving it myself and let you guys know how it went (no modo here).

[zemanjaski]

Thanks Sasky, will eagerly await your feedback.

I do want an extra Rakdos's Return in the board for the midrange decks; you can counter their main forms of CA, then just repeatedly blast their hand away ~ seems awesome.

[Alex]

Nevermind, the Cockatrice Variance Gods just shit on Fate.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]Potential Sideboard[/deck]

[Kazekirimaru]

Is cockatrice free? I have no way of digitally testing decks or anything. I should try something.

[Alex]

So I just had to mulligan six times in one game in order to get a hand with more than 1 land in it.

This is in a list with 24 lands in it.

[zemanjaski]

Seems realistic.

[Platypus]

The discussions about the crapshootedness (is that even a word?) of sealed moved on, but I'll post my opinion anyway. I've done a fair number of various sealed plays the last couple of years. A friend of mine has bought a box of nearly each available set since Lorwyn, and we've been opening those as sealed pools and played against each other whenever possible. We've done sealed plays of Lorwyn/Morningtide (3/3 boosters), Shadowmoor/Eventide (3/3), Shard of Alara/Conflux/Alara Reborn (2/2/2), M10/Planar Chaos (3/3), Zendikar/M12 (3/3), just Zendikar, just M12, and currently Scars of Mirrodin-block (2/2/2). My opinion is that some environments are more a crapshoot that others. I haven't taken notes of the various pools, but it feels like it varies a lot. Usually one of us have gotten a really bomby pools that basically built themselves, and other times we've really struggled to create anything decent. The current pools (
Scars-block) on the other hand have been very even. Every time I've felt that I could use almost every cards in a deck and it's been a struggle to actually choose which colors to play with, I've wanted to play with all colors. And sometimes we've even done that, because we've opened up good mana-fixing. And those decks have actually worked as well.

So, yes, sealed is a bit of a crapshoot, but it do depend on the sets/blocks themselves.

[Alex]

Seems realistic.

Fate and I both experienced just how crappy the randomization in Cockatrice really is. I got it pretty bad, then he got it worse. Since we're talking about crapshoots...

[LP, of the Fires]

I've already weighed in on sealed, but tangentially related, I think Draft is the higher variance. Imagine going X-deck colors through pack one, then opening Obzedat in pack 2. That and drafting with bad players who aren't sending clear signals turning your draft into a trainwreck. Or simply drafting triple avacyn's restored. That was wonderful.

I'll also probably play around with the grixis deck since that is actually my color alignment(I may or may not be a very evil person). I also lost game 2 round 5 or 6 of the GPT to a duskmantle seer flipping angel of serenity. For the sick rubbins, it was a called shot.

[redthirst]

I much prefer Draft to Sealed. If you end up with a shitty card pool in Draft (or, shitty-er than the average card pool at your table, anyway) then that's something you can work on and improve in the future. If you end up with a shitty card pool in Sealed - oh well - it's not like you can practice opening better packs.

In every other format everyone either starts with the exact same pool of cards to make their decks from or you have some say in what your pool of cards looks like - in Sealed it's completely luck-based.

A crap shoot.

That's why I say fuck it and plan on just taking a guild I'm comfortable with.

[Khaospawn]

Just when I thought the R/x Forum couldn't get any worse, I see another [SCD] from S_A.