Why you shouldn't underestimate the power of Gruul Shamans
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Why you shouldn't underestimate the power of Gruul Shamans
This is a parallel thread alongside Valadarith's Stonewright thread.
It is about why you should be playing Burning-Tree Emissary
Mmmm that sexy lady.
At first glance, she can seem underwhelming. A 2/2 for 2 that lets me extend my hand some more? Why bother?
I have seen lists go to her as a first cut when trying to fit in more "powerful" cards. This thread is about why she IS a powerful card, and as core as Ash Zealot is in MonoR as a 2 Drop for Gruul.
The key words that I'll use to convey the power of BTE are these: Accelerated Pressure.
This is what makes Gruul, Gruul. This is what earned the archetype back when Saito first designed a R/g
sligh the name "Turbo-Gruul" and "Hyper-Aggressive Gruul list."
Accelerated Pressure DOES NOT equal over extension. They are not one in the same.
Playing two cards in one turn is huge. Its what allows Gruul to win while on the draw against other aggro decks through simply racing.
Putting two cards down against a control deck that was leaning on a single Azorius charm to stall them until stability is huge. Making them feel pressured enough to verdict 2 cards while you have hellriders and burn in hand is the strength of BTE. Early pressure forces hard decisions, and those decisions will usually be in your favor because people under pressure make suboptimal decisions out of fear.
BTE's strength does not stop here though. She DOUBLES as a Mana-fixer. In a list where consistency is king, you cannot afford to be running forests for extra green sources. I think we can all agree that mulligans lead to decreased win percentage through sheer gas. BTE helps you keep
hands that you otherwise wouldn't have the source to play. BTE allows you to design your deck counting them as an extra 4 dual source.
Being a free body is also very relevant. You can drop her on 3 mountains to cast a Domri and protect him. You can drop her to make Blasphemous Act cost 1 less mana and possibly give you a game changing wipe (especially if you run reckoners as well.)
Notice I haven't even mentioned Lightning Mauler yet. This is a great "combo" and has been considered a nut draw. However I am of the opinion (feel free to discuss) that this isn't even her greatest strength. I don't play her for her body, so getting in an extra 4 damage once is great. You can steamroll control with it, but against creature defenses it isn't enough. Mauler is too fragile, and in the end you've only gotten in an extra 4 damage. And if you're on the draw, you might not even be able to swing into an Augur or ramped Smiter profitably. I would sometimes even rather just LM to haste out a more
relevant 3 drop who will get through more damage over time (Reckoner, Wolf).
Another misconception is that multiple BTE hands are "nut draws." She is NOT a nut draw by herself. A hand of BTE, BTE, BTE, 4 land looks enticing because "triple BTE zomg" but you should not overestimate its strength. You are overextending your hand completely on t2, for only 3 2/2 bears. Without something relevant to combo off BTE (spear, LM, Boar), she is lackluster.
I believe she is at her strongest when you can play relevant support spells off her T2. BTE-> Rancor on your 1 Drop, Pillar of flame their 1 drop, or Drop another 1 drop (against control) is where I see her at her strongest. That is an insane amount of pressure that, if they're on the draw, is almost impossible to recover from. If YOU are on the draw, letting your 1-drop swing in for 3-4 while killing theirs gets you ahead in the race and allows the entire game to shift. Credit to Vala: "It's like a Timewalk T2"
Imagine
they were hoping to race you and sided out some burn because they didn't expect to be the "control" player being on the draw. Suddenly you BTE-> Burn and they are on the backfoot with less cards to help THEM stabilize. This reversal play has won me games again and again and allows me to laugh when people believe Naya Blitz to be the "strongest" aggro deck in standard.
Summary
Burning Tree-Emissary:
-Fixes your mana
-Accelerates your game plan
-Shifts tempo in your favor
Weaknesses:
-2/2 Body
-Deceptively underwhelming in multiples
-Needs to combo into support spells for maximum effectiveness
It is about why you should be playing Burning-Tree Emissary
Mmmm that sexy lady.
At first glance, she can seem underwhelming. A 2/2 for 2 that lets me extend my hand some more? Why bother?
I have seen lists go to her as a first cut when trying to fit in more "powerful" cards. This thread is about why she IS a powerful card, and as core as Ash Zealot is in MonoR as a 2 Drop for Gruul.
The key words that I'll use to convey the power of BTE are these: Accelerated Pressure.
This is what makes Gruul, Gruul. This is what earned the archetype back when Saito first designed a R/g
sligh the name "Turbo-Gruul" and "Hyper-Aggressive Gruul list."
Accelerated Pressure DOES NOT equal over extension. They are not one in the same.
Playing two cards in one turn is huge. Its what allows Gruul to win while on the draw against other aggro decks through simply racing.
Putting two cards down against a control deck that was leaning on a single Azorius charm to stall them until stability is huge. Making them feel pressured enough to verdict 2 cards while you have hellriders and burn in hand is the strength of BTE. Early pressure forces hard decisions, and those decisions will usually be in your favor because people under pressure make suboptimal decisions out of fear.
BTE's strength does not stop here though. She DOUBLES as a Mana-fixer. In a list where consistency is king, you cannot afford to be running forests for extra green sources. I think we can all agree that mulligans lead to decreased win percentage through sheer gas. BTE helps you keep
hands that you otherwise wouldn't have the source to play. BTE allows you to design your deck counting them as an extra 4 dual source.
Being a free body is also very relevant. You can drop her on 3 mountains to cast a Domri and protect him. You can drop her to make Blasphemous Act cost 1 less mana and possibly give you a game changing wipe (especially if you run reckoners as well.)
Notice I haven't even mentioned Lightning Mauler yet. This is a great "combo" and has been considered a nut draw. However I am of the opinion (feel free to discuss) that this isn't even her greatest strength. I don't play her for her body, so getting in an extra 4 damage once is great. You can steamroll control with it, but against creature defenses it isn't enough. Mauler is too fragile, and in the end you've only gotten in an extra 4 damage. And if you're on the draw, you might not even be able to swing into an Augur or ramped Smiter profitably. I would sometimes even rather just LM to haste out a more
relevant 3 drop who will get through more damage over time (Reckoner, Wolf).
Another misconception is that multiple BTE hands are "nut draws." She is NOT a nut draw by herself. A hand of BTE, BTE, BTE, 4 land looks enticing because "triple BTE zomg" but you should not overestimate its strength. You are overextending your hand completely on t2, for only 3 2/2 bears. Without something relevant to combo off BTE (spear, LM, Boar), she is lackluster.
I believe she is at her strongest when you can play relevant support spells off her T2. BTE-> Rancor on your 1 Drop, Pillar of flame their 1 drop, or Drop another 1 drop (against control) is where I see her at her strongest. That is an insane amount of pressure that, if they're on the draw, is almost impossible to recover from. If YOU are on the draw, letting your 1-drop swing in for 3-4 while killing theirs gets you ahead in the race and allows the entire game to shift. Credit to Vala: "It's like a Timewalk T2"
Imagine
they were hoping to race you and sided out some burn because they didn't expect to be the "control" player being on the draw. Suddenly you BTE-> Burn and they are on the backfoot with less cards to help THEM stabilize. This reversal play has won me games again and again and allows me to laugh when people believe Naya Blitz to be the "strongest" aggro deck in standard.
Summary
Burning Tree-Emissary:
-Fixes your mana
-Accelerates your game plan
-Shifts tempo in your favor
Weaknesses:
-2/2 Body
-Deceptively underwhelming in multiples
-Needs to combo into support spells for maximum effectiveness
Last edited by Link on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Good post. I think the best way to summarize is that she's basically a Time Walk, and that's especially good in an aggro deck. She gives you a lot of options for sure.
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Really nice post BTE is curiously a 'build-around' card, a concept that seems lost on a great many deck builders; I think the pros and cons raised here do a very nice job of underscoring what is really going on with the card
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Great post and I love this chick with the new pinging ramper. Totally testing a deck using BTE + Zhur-Taa Druid. I get to ramp and damage you? Seems fun!
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ZTD is undervalued I believe as it basically adds "Deal 1 damage to each opponent" to every creature you cast with it. ZTD also slips around Witchbane Orb that decks are starting to pack to turn off spears. Its the same rules clause as Hellrider triggers, no instance of word target so Orb does diddly.
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[deck]6 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
8 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
3 Hound of Griselbrand
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear[/deck]
Quick brew for midrange list. No one drops, which could be glaring hole. Thought here was to get as much value as possible in a format that added Putrefy and has many wipes. Rancor and GHC being used in place of wolf. Geist and Hound for undying. GHC and Kite for good ramp targets and they go over or thru blockers. Kite, Giest and Boar are good t4 drops after a ramped rider as with ZTD + rider they will generate at least 2pts of damage before combat (1 from ZTD trigger + 1 from rider declare)
Optimal play is kinda sick....
T1 Grounds
T2 Crag + BTE + ZTD
T3 Land + Rider = 1ZTD+2Rider+5Combat = 12 Life
T4 Land + Kite = 1ZTD+3Rider+10
Combat = -2 Life
OR
Land + Boar = 1ZTD + 3 Rider + 8Combat = 0 Life
OR
Land + Giest + Giest = 1ZTD + 4Rider + 9Combat = -2 Life
OR
Land + Giest = 1 ZTD + 3Rider + 7Combat = 1 life and 2 mana open
ZTD lets you run your 4 drops as 3s which means a deck COULD run off and opener of two lands and gas.
Quite possible that Pyrewild Shaman should be a 2 or 3 of in the deck maybe move maw to the side ... especially if tweaking to add in any FS damage as FS damage step - Recurr- Bloodrush normal damage duder
Go forth and tweak!
2 Kessig Wolf Run
8 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
3 Hound of Griselbrand
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear[/deck]
Quick brew for midrange list. No one drops, which could be glaring hole. Thought here was to get as much value as possible in a format that added Putrefy and has many wipes. Rancor and GHC being used in place of wolf. Geist and Hound for undying. GHC and Kite for good ramp targets and they go over or thru blockers. Kite, Giest and Boar are good t4 drops after a ramped rider as with ZTD + rider they will generate at least 2pts of damage before combat (1 from ZTD trigger + 1 from rider declare)
Optimal play is kinda sick....
T1 Grounds
T2 Crag + BTE + ZTD
T3 Land + Rider = 1ZTD+2Rider+5Combat = 12 Life
T4 Land + Kite = 1ZTD+3Rider+10
Combat = -2 Life
OR
Land + Boar = 1ZTD + 3 Rider + 8Combat = 0 Life
OR
Land + Giest + Giest = 1ZTD + 4Rider + 9Combat = -2 Life
OR
Land + Giest = 1 ZTD + 3Rider + 7Combat = 1 life and 2 mana open
ZTD lets you run your 4 drops as 3s which means a deck COULD run off and opener of two lands and gas.
Quite possible that Pyrewild Shaman should be a 2 or 3 of in the deck maybe move maw to the side ... especially if tweaking to add in any FS damage as FS damage step - Recurr- Bloodrush normal damage duder
Go forth and tweak!
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I think 3 gates would be fine in the list. RR is whats needed by turn 3 and with gates that ups the amount of ways to get there. Thankfully with BTE Mountain Mountain will still get there thanks to BTE for ZTD.
-2 Forest -1 Mountain +3 Gruul Guild Gate OOOOORRRR -2 Kessig -1 Forest +3 Gruul Guild Gate but thats if Kessig doesn't help with the reach in testing
15 Green Sources
18 Red sources
2 utility // +2 of each if dropping Kessig
-2 Forest -1 Mountain +3 Gruul Guild Gate OOOOORRRR -2 Kessig -1 Forest +3 Gruul Guild Gate but thats if Kessig doesn't help with the reach in testing
15 Green Sources
18 Red sources
2 utility // +2 of each if dropping Kessig
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I'd cut mainly forests for the gates. You don't want to cut into mountains for Boar, and you don't have arbor elves so you don't care about forests.
I was thinking about this list today and I think its got some potential, I especially like the interaction with ZTD and KWR or devil's play. Every mana dump for damage is doubly efficient off ZTD's. I think ZTD is the key to making Hound good. Hound is slow but if he comes down to 3 and then you can KWR for +2 turn 4 AND ping for extra while doing it? Scary shit.
I do however think the list needs one drops. This makes it a true aggro deck off the gruul principle of "accelerated" pressure. 1-drop into BTEs+ZTD into 1-drop swinging (this is key)+4 drop is what makes it scary.
Not only do they have deal with aggressive one drops, but now they have to deal with 4 drops a turn earlier than their decks might be prepared for.
-Forests
-4 Geists
+Mountains
n+4 Nobles/+4 Cacklers (maybe only one 1 drop to start. Cacklers are better with rancors imo while nobles are better with GCR. Hard choice)
Thing is, with Rancors AND extra mana this other card suddenly becomes that much more attractive: Pyrewild shaman in the SB.
Bloodrush something, buy it back with etra mana thanks to ZTD ramp, ping. ping ping ping. Might playtest this out in person tomorrow night with the local group, I have all the cards (Should have ZTDs from the pre-release).
Also being able to haste out a boar, and hold up a land and a ZTD for skullcrack excites me. Now I don't have to choose between pressure and anti-lifegain. With ZTD shockramp, BOTH CAN BE YOURS.
SB:
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Skullcrack
2 Zealous Conscripts
1 Pyrewild Shaman
2 Garruk Relentless (turn 3 garruks np?)
2 Mizzium Mortar
I was thinking about this list today and I think its got some potential, I especially like the interaction with ZTD and KWR or devil's play. Every mana dump for damage is doubly efficient off ZTD's. I think ZTD is the key to making Hound good. Hound is slow but if he comes down to 3 and then you can KWR for +2 turn 4 AND ping for extra while doing it? Scary shit.
I do however think the list needs one drops. This makes it a true aggro deck off the gruul principle of "accelerated" pressure. 1-drop into BTEs+ZTD into 1-drop swinging (this is key)+4 drop is what makes it scary.
Not only do they have deal with aggressive one drops, but now they have to deal with 4 drops a turn earlier than their decks might be prepared for.
-Forests
-4 Geists
+Mountains
n+4 Nobles/+4 Cacklers (maybe only one 1 drop to start. Cacklers are better with rancors imo while nobles are better with GCR. Hard choice)
Thing is, with Rancors AND extra mana this other card suddenly becomes that much more attractive: Pyrewild shaman in the SB.
Bloodrush something, buy it back with etra mana thanks to ZTD ramp, ping. ping ping ping. Might playtest this out in person tomorrow night with the local group, I have all the cards (Should have ZTDs from the pre-release).
Also being able to haste out a boar, and hold up a land and a ZTD for skullcrack excites me. Now I don't have to choose between pressure and anti-lifegain. With ZTD shockramp, BOTH CAN BE YOURS.
SB:
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Skullcrack
2 Zealous Conscripts
1 Pyrewild Shaman
2 Garruk Relentless (turn 3 garruks np?)
2 Mizzium Mortar
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[deck]
2 gruul Guildgate
2 Kessig Wolf Run
12 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
4 Hound of Griselbrand
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear[/deck]
real quick before I head out. going with noble just because of Naya Blitz being in the meta I think. Also don't own TMH so this is what I'll have to test with.
2 gruul Guildgate
2 Kessig Wolf Run
12 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
4 Hound of Griselbrand
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear[/deck]
real quick before I head out. going with noble just because of Naya Blitz being in the meta I think. Also don't own TMH so this is what I'll have to test with.
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I feel like you want something bigger and badder on its own than Hellrider. You have some ramp and a good amount of land. I'd actually consider going all out on the ramp plan and adding a third KWR and drop a gate and some or all of the Rancors, then shove in some number of Savageborn Hydra and Devil's Play. You may even consider Borderland Ranger to fetch lands and topping out with Thundermaw Hellkite.
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I think if we can make this deck be able to play both the aggro game when pushed into it while also going up the ramp scale, we may have a breakout deck.
What do we think of this?
[deck]Gruul Ramp[/deck]
I did toss in ranger to make sure that land #4 is a lot easier to find. I was thinking they could also be Domri Rade instead to add more firepower. I made the SB to make use of creature generators when facing wiper decks, tho o rings and spheres may hurt
like a bitch. Hammer of BoGoblin to use the extra mana. Pillar and Mortars for dealing with aggro and conscripts for steal duders.
What do we think of this?
[deck]Gruul Ramp[/deck]
I did toss in ranger to make sure that land #4 is a lot easier to find. I was thinking they could also be Domri Rade instead to add more firepower. I made the SB to make use of creature generators when facing wiper decks, tho o rings and spheres may hurt
like a bitch. Hammer of BoGoblin to use the extra mana. Pillar and Mortars for dealing with aggro and conscripts for steal duders.
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don't know if our creatures are big enough to be using Domri. can't pit fight him with nobles, druids, rangers, etc.
Savageborn hydra is more of a mana sink...that's all he has over Hound of Griselbrand. I'd play Hound up until rotatin just because undying is the reason he's such an awesome card against control and aggro. I'd probably throw in an odd forest in there as well, just in case you need to BTE->Borderland-> find a forest for a green source.
I also think 3 pyrewild is going to be too many, probably 2 for the match-ups you want to see him in (add a 4th rampager instead, though I'd run 4 pillars in the SB for even better control transformation vs. aggro decks, which I think this deck is weak against).
Savageborn hydra is more of a mana sink...that's all he has over Hound of Griselbrand. I'd play Hound up until rotatin just because undying is the reason he's such an awesome card against control and aggro. I'd probably throw in an odd forest in there as well, just in case you need to BTE->Borderland-> find a forest for a green source.
I also think 3 pyrewild is going to be too many, probably 2 for the match-ups you want to see him in (add a 4th rampager instead, though I'd run 4 pillars in the SB for even better control transformation vs. aggro decks, which I think this deck is weak against).
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We need to go deeper.
[deck]
Creatures (31)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Borderland Ranger
4 Deadbridge Goliath
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Thragtusk
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells (6)
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Devil's Play
Lands (23)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Kessig Wolf Run
9 Forest
3 Mountain[/deck]
[deck]
Creatures (31)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Borderland Ranger
4 Deadbridge Goliath
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Thragtusk
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells (6)
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Devil's Play
Lands (23)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Kessig Wolf Run
9 Forest
3 Mountain[/deck]
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Flying the Swagkite
I really like where we've taken this list. This seems like it can really just go right over the top far faster than it should be able too. A turn 3 kite is fucking punishing.
T1 ground elf
T2 crag ZTD
T3 kessig Kite for 5
T4 Whatever the fuck you want but Kite for 9 is always an option
VS a deck with removal Goliath and Tusk are great things to ramp into safely.
If we figure that people will SB to hit our dorks, deal with our fatties or go under us; transform to go burn control and damage smashing? More plays, spear, pillar, mortars? crucibles?
I really like where we've taken this list. This seems like it can really just go right over the top far faster than it should be able too. A turn 3 kite is fucking punishing.
T1 ground elf
T2 crag ZTD
T3 kessig Kite for 5
T4 Whatever the fuck you want but Kite for 9 is always an option
VS a deck with removal Goliath and Tusk are great things to ramp into safely.
If we figure that people will SB to hit our dorks, deal with our fatties or go under us; transform to go burn control and damage smashing? More plays, spear, pillar, mortars? crucibles?
Some men just want to watch the planes burn. . .and most of them are here.
FoS resident designer/codemonkey
MTGO:lorddax Cockatrice:lorddax
FoS resident designer/codemonkey
MTGO:lorddax Cockatrice:lorddax
- Pyreheart Bezerra
- Regular Member
- Posts: 153
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO) - Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:53 pm
Val I love it. I would like to see how Ruric fits in there and maybe 2-3 Domri's. Definitely has a lot of potential and could be a sleeper in a tourney. I think Vorapede is a better addition over deadbridge goliath. However 5/5 for 4 is awesome value vs 5/4 for 5. I do like the "free scavenge" that undying gives you and less oppurtunity to be blown out by getting your scavenge target removed in response. Vorapede should instantly put you in a favorable postition on board then drop Ruric, and you can attack for 11 points of damage while still keeping them back to wall your opponent. Ruric should also help red and green's natural weakness to fliers. But we do have some number of thundermaws and they will trade with most fliers in today's standard save for aurelia. If we are going so creature heavy with these lists, we should play somberwald sage also. Turn 4 we could theoretically cast a 7/7 hydra or a 5 drop and a 4
drop. Pretty nuts!
drop. Pretty nuts!
Tier 2 Member of Fires of Salvation.
Mountain Mage since 7/12
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- Valdarith
- Tire Aficionado
- Posts: 5169
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO) - Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:48 pm
- Location: Southeast AL
I've been running Vorapede in my pre-DGM green-heavy deck. It's very good.Val I love it. I would like to see how Ruric fits in there and maybe 2-3 Domri's. Definitely has a lot of potential and could be a sleeper in a tourney. I think Vorapede is a better addition over deadbridge goliath. However 5/5 for 4 is awesome value vs 5/4 for 5. I do like the "free scavenge" that undying gives you and less oppurtunity to be blown out by getting your scavenge target removed in response. Vorapede should instantly put you in a favorable postition on board then drop Ruric, and you can attack for 11 points of damage while still keeping them back to wall your opponent. Ruric should also help red and green's natural weakness to fliers. But we do have some number of thundermaws and they will trade with most fliers in today's standard save for aurelia. If we are going so creature heavy with these lists, we should play somberwald sage also. Turn 4 we could
theoretically cast a 7/7 hydra or a 5 drop and a 4 drop. Pretty nuts!
[deck]
Creatures (31)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Borderland Ranger
4 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Thragtusk
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Vorapede
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Spells (6)
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Domri Rade
Lands (23)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Kessig Wolf Run
10 Forest
2 Mountain[/deck]
I was once down on Domri but my playtesting has shown that he is solid. This deck has a weakness to Rites decks mainboard but the Thragtusks help in that regard. Post-board I'd bring in more walkers like Garruk, Primal Hunter in these matchups.
Four Bonfires is just silly. Really I've gone without them on MTGO and have done just fine. Once you land a couple of fatties the opponent's board state doesn't matter as much anymore.
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