[Primer] The Aristocrats

Threads from Standard formats since passed.

Moderators: Kaitscralt, zemanjaski, Christen

User avatar
Lightning_Dolt
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4739
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:51 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

[Primer] The Aristocrats

Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:03 am

Image


All content owned by LP of the Fires. He deserves all credit (only little bits here and there added by me ;-) ).

Introduction: The Aristocrats is an agro midrange deck Designed by Sam Black of team SCG for the Pro Tour that occurred last weekend. The name is derived from Cartel Aristocrat and Falkenrath Aristocrat which form the core of the deck through their ability to sacrifice creatures for value. The agro comes from cards like Champion of the Parish, [card]Knight of Infamy[/card:
304wpzrt], and Silverblade Paladin that can end games quickly, especially when combined. The midrange elements are found in cards like lingering souls which creates a board presence and Skirsdark High Priest which can take over a game by making demons through tricky combat steps.

While the deck is a completely new quantity that is hard to judge going forward, it did end up being the second best performing deck of the weekend with a win rate of 58.3% and ended up winning the entire event and also had several high place finishes at the SCG open that occurred the same weekend so it definitely has credentials.

The Engines: I mentioned engines earlier but here is where I go in depth. The deck has several. With 8 sac outlets, you want to be able to take advantage of binning your own creatures so how do you do that? One of the more obvious ways is going human heavy so
that yourFalkenrath Aristocrats get bigger and can end games faster. Going human based also improves your aggressive draws by letting you abuse Champion of the Parish.

One of the more underrated cards in standard that is a pivotal card of the deck and an engine in and of itself is Doomed Traveler. This card enables a plethora of tricks and is a central component to the decks nut draws. It's a one drop. It creates value when it dies. If you have a sack outlet, you can win reckoner mirrors by being able to fog attacking reckoners via blocking and sacking before damage. It's also a human for Falkenrath Aristocrat and Champion.

Potentially the most powerful card in the deck if a bit marginal by itself is Skirsdag High Priest. In the midgame, this card has the potential to take over the game by making combat math miserable for your opponent and almost
demands that your opponent "waste" removal on him lest they find themselves in an untenable position. Combined with Doomed traveler and Cartel Aristocrat, you can start making demon tokens as early as turn three. Fact: Most decks can't beat 5/5 Flying Demons on turn 3.

Boros Reckoner, or no Boros Reckoner?: Boros Reckoner is an undeniably powerful card. In the first month or so, it was almost impossible to remove favourably. Now, most strategies have adapted and pack black, or white removal to deal with it. In the end (and I know it's a cop out) it's a meta call. Reckoner really shines in an aggro heavy meta. It also allows you to play Blasphemous Act, which is back breaking (and typically game winning) when resolved. If you meta has more mid range and control, they will be more likely to have black or white removal
and/or sweepers that blanks your reckoner. By not playing Reckoner, you have less issues with your mana base, and you can run more Lingering Souls / Removal.

Gameplan: The deck by virtue of having so called "internal engines" is susceptible to have multiple different openings as opposed to say a typical Red deck that wants to do the same thing every game. The general idea is to apply pressure from turn one, have better combat math against opposing reckoner decks, and finish with Falkenrath aristocrat over the top, all while being able to take advantage of sacrificing it's own creatures, usually in combat. Due to the power and versatility of the majority of your cards, you can get away with playing a more defensive role against opposing agro decks depending on your draws. Postboard games, the deck can board into a more midrange approach with walkers, tokens and extra removal.
Even when your synergies don't line up neatly, you can often get an edge in combat by blocking and then sacking cards to say protect Cartel Aristocrat, giving it protection from color so that it can off an opposing X/2. When your synergies do come online, you do things like make 5/5 flying demons on turn 3 or set up zealous conscripts stealing thragtusks and sacking them so that you gain a beast token. Overall the deck has a lot going for it. With that said, lets dive into a sample decklist:

Tom Martell (PT: Montreal Winner)

[deck] Deck
Creatures(30):
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Knight of Infamy
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Silverblade Paladin
2 Zealous Conscripts
4 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Restoration Angel

Spells(6):
4 Orzhov Charm
2 Lingering Souls
Lands(
24):
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel

Sideboard(15):
3 Tragic Slip
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Lingering Souls
1 Mentor of the Meek
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Skirsdag High Priest[/deck]
Look Mom, No Reckoners!

Jose Francisco Dantas Mangueira da Silva
Grand Prix Rio De Janeiro 2013 Winner - Standard


[deck]Creatures (28)
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
1 Restoration Angel
3 Silverblade Paladin
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (8)
3 Lingering Souls
3 Orzhov Charm
2 Tragic Slip

Lands (24)
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated
Chapel
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard (15)
1 Cathedral Sanctifier
1 Faith's Shield
1 Mark of Mutiny
1 Mentor of the Meek
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tragic Slip
1 War Priest of Thune[/deck]
enzoreal (1st Place)
Standard Premier #5163809 on 03/17/2013


[deck]Creatures (28)
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Silverblade Paladin
3 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (8)
3 Lingering Souls
3 Orzhov Charm
2 Tragic Slip

Lands (24)
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard (15)
n1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Mark of Mutiny
1 Mentor of the Meek
3 Nearheath Pilgrim
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Purify the Grave
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tragic Slip
1 War Priest of Thune[/deck]
Smdster_MOCS Top 8
Standard - Magic Online Championship


[deck]Creatures (28)
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Silverblade Paladin
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (8)
3 Lingering Souls
2 Orzhov Charm
3 Tragic Slip

Lands (24)
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard (15)
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Mark of Mutiny
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Purify the Grave
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Sorin, Lord of
Innistrad
1 Tragic Slip
2 War Priest of Thune
1 Zealous Conscripts[/deck]

As you can see, the human theme is indeed heavily supported with 19 total humans for champion and falkenrath. For removal, the deck plays orzhov charm as it kills reckoner without activating the trigger which is relevant and you can make use of all the other modes. Bouncing a restoration angel and reanimating doomed traveler are both common uses. The mana base is less ambitious then it looks since most of your lands produce white for your early drops and caverns let you hedge your creature types when you need to. The most ambitious card in the mana base is vault of the archangel since it never produces colored mana, but it's so incredibly powerful in addition to being your only source of maindeck lifegain that the risks are well worth the benefits.



Sideboard Options:
Board wipe and 13 damage combo? Yes. Blasphemous Act is not only a reset against decks that can bigger then you, it's also a 13 damage combo with reckoner and in fact won Martells seminfal match of the pro tour against the Saito Naya deck.Lingering Soulsand Sorin combine to let you grind out control and midrange decks like jund that are trying to beat you through card advantage. Mentor of the Meek usually comes in against these matchups since it turns all your guys into extra cards and is truly broken with lingering souls. If it's not obvious, you're usually boarding out a large subset of your human package when you switch to the Sorin/Souls package. Obzedat often comes along with this package and can simply win games against control decks by himself, simply blinking in and out of play. The rest of the board is fairly intuitive like slip
being extra removal, RIP for gravehate, and high priest helping you go bigger.

There are a couple potential changes to the board going forward. The biggest hole you should look to fill is the lack of reach based agro tech. You'll find yourself scooping to turn one noble more often than you would like as the red decks are pretty terrible matchups. The obvious answer is nearhearth pilgrim, but moment of heroism probably works better most of the time and is truly backbreaking when used on reckoner in response to removal. Duress is another card that would be nice to have in the board as an anti-control measure though that may not be necessary as the esper matchup is actually favorable post-board already. If this deck becomes popular, a card that we may have to develop an answer for is Curse of Deaths hold since that blanks the majority of the deck. Other than that, you should be ready
to handle most opponents going forward.

I hope everyone else enjoys this deck as much as I do because it greatly rewards those skilled at combat math and it's just a blast to play since your games are always developing differently. Lets see if we can keep this deck tier 1 going forward. I can't wait to hear suggestions for improving the deck.

Matchups: Generally this deck has good matchups across the field. No real blowouts on other side of the spectrum and being 3 colors, you have access to amazing sideboard options. I'll go through the big ones.


Esper control:

Game one you're slightly unfavofed. Yes, you have several different draws that can put on lots of pressure, but at the end of the day, you're a 30 creature deck like the red based agro decks only we have 6 haste creatures instead of 15+ and no additional reach making us significantly weaker to sweepers then we&#
39;d want to be and azorius charm is the nemesis of champion of the parish further minimizing our effective game one openers. Postboard is like night and day however as we massively upgrade our deck while they maybe add 3 marginally useful cards. The sorin package plus Obzedat firmly swing the matchup in our favor games 2 and 3 as there deck is likely not going to be able to profitably interact with all of the moving pieces we're throwing on the battlefield and mentor of the meek potentially lets us outdraw them pre-[card]sphinx's revelation[/card].
Jund Midrange:

Slightly Favorable. You lose when the [card]Rakdos's Return[/card] your hand and you either have no lingering souls in hand or you're in an unfavourable race against them drawing bonfire of the damned. Postboard games are favorable because you get
to play obzedat, ghost council. This is a pretty grindy matchup. They have a bunch of removal, we have a bunch of creatures. They have bonfire of the damnedblowouts, we can deal massive chunks of damage within certain windows and we have reckoner which can mitigate the sting of those bonfires. Game one should be pretty even so all the cards match up well on both sides and it's fairly difficult to get an advantage from a shear cards perspective. Postboard games are similar to the matches against esper only we also get blasphemous act which can be used to just end the game against them. They may side in underworld connections to get ahead on cards on there side, but we can make them pay for those life points there losing. The fact that we have 4 lingering souls postboard even mitigates the value of there [card]Rakdos's Returns[/card]
.
R/x agro.

Draw perfect or lose. It's actually that simple. They have stromkirk noble, we have humans. They have burn spells and hasty creatures and our removal is dismember. In order to get this matchup to a reasonable rate would involve adding actual relevant sideboard cards like nearhearth pilgrim, or better, Moment of heroism. Vampire nighthawk and rhox faithmender are also options, but the former might be too rough on the mana and the latter is possibly too slow. Going deeper into the tank, there's also gloom surgeon, safe passage, pacifism, and fiend hunter. Honestly though, unless there is actually a lot of red in your area or you are a modo grinder, I would
simply accept this bad matchup and move on.


UWR Reckoner Control:

This is another mostly even matchup, that the way you play it will change radically depending on there build. Since this matchup is so involved, I'll just link the finals of the Pro Tour.
Junk Reanimator/midrange:

With all our graveyard hate and steal effects, this match feels favourable. Removal for Angel of Serenity and Craterhoof Behemoth is important too.


B/x Zombies

While this archetype has waned in popularity, it is still a really strong deck and will likely rise again if control starts to take over. These matches are pretty close to being mirrors, but I feel we have a slight advantage, since we can block when it is profitable
and they can't, and we can blank a lot of their removal with our aristocrats. In versions running red, bonfire of the damned is a problem, and in versions running green, Golgari Charm is tough.


Bant Control

Others may disagree, but I feel this is a slightly unfavourable match. You must keep fast hands, because if they get multiple Thragtusks or get to a big [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card] you are generally sunk. It is definitely winnable, but you have to play carefully and be mindful of Supreme Verdict. Lingering Souls in the bin to help you recover after a sweeper are key.


Naya Midrange

. Favourable unless they run [card]Bonfire of the
Damned[/card].


Naya Blitz

Completely winnable, just make smart blocks and don't let their Boros Reckoners trigger. I feel this one is about even.


Aggro Jund

Unfavorable Pre-Board. Postboard, even to favorable. They tend to dilute there deck when boarding when they should simply present there starting 60.
Humanimator:

Probably really bad if they don't board out the combo. If you expect this deck to be big, I'd leave 1 or 2 hard reanimation hate spells in the board. Purify the grave is probably enough since you just need to hit Glory's Rise, but make sure you can kill a huntmaster consistently.

Videos:

[
youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0uAw81oqM0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9rYa_UdJMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pWG2lgzn1k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0M0jzZIEtA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcgslW5YR_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Aw6_lf0zk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIW0Y6-ggSg

Again, big thanks to LK for this write up. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Last edited by Lightning_Dolt on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:46 am, edited 11 times in total.

User avatar
Lightning_Dolt
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4739
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:51 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:30 am

FNM Results :sherlock:

I went 2-1 (losing in the finals to the eventual winner) for second place.



First round I played Boros Aggro (2-0)

Game 1: He opened with Champion of the Parish x3, I opened Doomed Traveller > Skirsdag High Priest > Cartlel Aristocrat + Tragic Slip. He scooped on my second activation. :unibrow:

Sideboard: +3 Nearheath Pilgrim, +2 Tragic Slip, +2 [card]Sorin, Lord of
Innistrad[/card], -3 Skirsdag High Priest, -2 Zealous Conscripts, -2 Orzhov Charm.

Game 2: Me mulled to 6 and kept a hand of 5 lands and a Gather the Townsfolk. I was surprised, because I think he's generally a better player than that. I opened with 3x Doomed Traveler that he didn't want to attack into, and T3 Silverblade Paladin, T4 Falkenrath Aristocrat got there.



Second Round was vs Bant Control (2-1)

Game 1: Very fast win, I was on the draw and nut drew, Champion of the Parish > Knight of Infamy > Silverblade Paladin > Falkenrath Aristocrat.


Sideboard:
+1 Mark of Mutiny, +2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - 3 Skirsdag High Priest,

Game 2: I had a reasonable start, but he had T2 Farseek into T3 Supreme Verdict, T4 Thragtusk, T5 Armada Wurm, T6 [card]Conjurer's Closet[/card] (which was SB tech according to him. ) I made a mistake with my combat math and got him to 1 (he was at 8, I was at 7, and I think I looked at my life total) and I scooped them up rather than slow rolling since I needed as much time for game three as possible.

Game 3: I had a quick start, but got stuck on 4 land with two ZC in hand. I drew my land (huzzah!) and stole a Thragtusk, swung, then sac'd to [card]Falkenrath Aristocrat[/card:
2uxogyzo] and collected my beast token. We went to time and my opponent swung with 3x 5/5 Trample Wurms. I double blocked one with the 3/3 Beast Token and 3/3 ZC and went to 7 (He apparently forgot about the beast token). He assigned damage to the ZC, I untaped and played a second ZC for the concession on T2 of extra turns. Zealous Conscripts> :hug:



Third Round vs Gruul (1-2)

Game 1: Very close game. We swung back and forth, but he got me to 2 life so I couldn't play my T5 Shockland to cast ZC. If that shock land was any of the other 12 land in the deck that didn't cost life, I would have had him. C'est la vie.

Sideboard: +3 Nearheath Pilgrim, +2 Tragic Slip, +2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -4[card]
Knight of Infamy[/card], [/card], -2 Zealous Conscripts, -1 Orzhov Charm.

Game 2: I curved into 2x Falkenrath Aristocrat and that was all she wrote.

Game 3: I kept a hand of Land, Land, Land, Doomed Traveller x2, Cartel Aristocrat x2 (which according to my testing has been a perfect opener vs RDW variants with Stromkirk Noble on the play, but in hindsight isn't as good on the draw). I got stuck on three and durdled with Lingering souls while he has a double rancor'd Boros Reckoner soulbonded with Stonewright that kicked my teeth down my throat. Rancor stops me from chumping pretty effectively. He saw 7x Rancor across three games, which
makes me think he is a luck sack. :rolleyes:



After this event, I'm thinking of changing the sideboard / mainboard a little to this:


[deck]Creatures (28)
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Silverblade Paladin
3 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Zealous Conscripts

Spells (8)
3 Lingering Souls
2 Orzhov Charm
3 Tragic Slip

Lands (24)
4 Blood Crypt
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard (15)
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Mark of Mutiny
4 Nearheath Pilgrim
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Purify the Grave
1 Mentor of the Meek / possibly Aurelia, The Warleader[/deck]



Changes to the sideboard are because they've been performing better than the other sideboard cards (for example, I'
ve never sided in [card]Curse of Death's Hold[/card], which I assume is for the mirror)

Mentor of the Meek has been really strong when left unmolested, but I'm not sure about him as a 1 of since I don't draw him often, but Flashback Lingering Souls, pay :2mana: , draw two cards has been a really good play. I'm seeing 1x Aurelia, The Warleader in a lot of the sideboards on MTGO. I'm not sure which M/U's you want her in, but I love the idea of playing with her. Feel free to chime in if you know which M/U's to side her in. I'm guessing vs Jund and Control where you want to go over the top.

Nearheath Pilgrim has been really good and done a tonne of work vs aggro. Unless there is no red in your meta, i think you need these to counteract life lost from shocks /
charms.

Decided on 3/2 > 2/3 split of Orzhov Charm / Tragic Slip because charm is almost always used as a kill spell, and the life loss hurts. Morbid is not hard to activate generally.

I might cut 1x Skisdag High Priest for 1x Restoration Angel, but again, I'm not sure. There are times when Resto shines, but I generally prefer consistency. As a 1 of, you won't see her often, but I'm considering it, since most of the MTGO lists are using it as a 1 of.

:jam: I'll be playing the deck in a GP:T for GP: Beijing tomorrow, and will post results.

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to chime in. Otherwise thanks for reading!

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:30 pm

What are your thoughts on Boros Reckoner in the deck?

I just realized I have every card to build this deck at my disposal (except for the Ghost Dads and Lord of Innistrad) and I dunno what list to build. I think I might just copy Martell's list and then go from there. I really like having access to Resto Angel.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:45 pm

Cutting Reckoner helps a lot with the mana, which is not an insigificant gain. The other card potentially worth considering is 1-2 Dreadbore in the 75.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:56 am

I slapped together a Reckoner-less deck and I've been goldfishing with it. I think...I think I love it. Seriously. It runs like Dos Rakis, but with options, man. Like, some serious late-game options.

Call me crazy, but I think this is what Dos Rakis was meant to evolve into.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:06 am

I remember been laughed at for saying Dos Rakis + Lingering Souls was good :P
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:07 am

Not from me. In fact, one of the main selling points of the deck is that I get to use my playset of promo Souls.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:24 am

Aristocrat + Souls = stupid.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:25 am

Stupidly good.

There's just so many tricks you can do with this deck.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:29 am

I do wonder if the Human subtheme is really that important ~ the other cards all offer multiple interactions; Champion is really only good on turn 1. The amount of synergy in the deck means that topdecking anything else is usually pretty good though.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:35 am

I think it is. At least, it's a little bit more important without the Reckoners. For one, you can just call Human on Cavern the majority of the time. Two, without the Reckoners you can fill out a little bit more with other humans like Koi and Silverblade, which only make Champ a little bit better if he comes to the party late. And then, more importantly, Falkenrath Aristocrat has more juicy Humans to eat.

Though I will argue that having the Resto is pretty important to the deck since it can blink Conscripts and can re-pair Silverblade to different targets if need be.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:44 am

Good points. I like at least a single Restoration Angel in the deck, if not 2 ~ the aforementioned tricks are just really key IMO.

[deck]
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
2 Restoration Angel
2 Silverblade Paladin
2 Skirsdag Highpriest
2 Zealous Conscripts

2 Lingering Souls
4 Orzhov Charm
2 Tragic Slip

4 Blood Crypt
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Vault of the Archangel[/deck]

Also, my manabase is a work of art:
- 15 turn 1 white sources
- minimal checks-lands, but all are activated off any single shock (which you have the full compliment of)
- 17 white sources if Cavern names human, so you can make WW easily
- 14 red sources if Cavern names Vampire
- 14 black sources if Cavern names Vampire
- this configuration allows you to run
TWO Vault of the Archangel ~ very nice!
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:49 am

I kept telling people that the options this deck affords you are addictive. Even if the deck was terribly positioned, it would still be worth playing since you have so much room to outplay opponents. I like the reckoner+blasphemous act combo, but I think the deck is much better without it. I haven't missed reckoner at all, especially since I've had a chance to attacking with double striking exalted FA's more then once.

Resto angel isn't important per say in the deck, but you get so much value from playing one, that it more then earns it's slot as a fun-of. It's almost impossible to play around unless telegraphed hard, and once you use it in a match, your opponent has to respect it, even if you side out your 1 copy every game(like I do a lot). Every time you blink a Zealous conscripts, redthirst flames a choad.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:50 am

@ Zem- Your creature package is the same as what I just slapped together. As for the spells, I went with the 3 Charm/3 Souls/2 Tragic Slip. I'm liking your double Vault. I may try that - the card is just too good.

Personally though, I think the deck needs more Chapel. But then you are running dat Dreadbore. :D
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:51 am

Every time you blink a Zealous conscripts, redthirst flames a choad.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The look on some poor choad's face: :gonk:
Also, my manabase is a work of art:
- 15 turn 1 white sources
- minimal
checks-lands, but all are activated off any single shock (which you have the full compliment of)
- 17 white sources if Cavern names human, so you can make WW easily
- 14 red sources if Cavern names Vampire
- 14 black sources if Cavern names Vampire
- this configuration allows you to run TWO Vault of the Archangel ~ very nice!
Ok, maths don't lie. I think you just sold me on this. :smileup:
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:58 am

I wouldnt mind 1 more black source honestly. Will think about it. I returned to maindeck four-of Orzhov Charm because of the interaction with Doomed Traveler, so I might be able to shave a red for a black.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:59 am

Forgot to thank Johnny for the amazing facelift to my primer. You do good work sir. Really good work.

Regarding Z's list, I think it's 1 black source short of optimal. That's generally going to be the first way your manabase fails you. Either you're short black mana, or you didn't draw the right amount of lands. I'd add another isolated chapel, and probably cut a plains if you want two vaults, though simply keeping your manabase as is is certainly fine. I just hate not being ablet to cast cartel Aristocrat+removal in the same turn.

I like how in the course of my edit, everyone decideds they wanted more black mana. Way to make me sound redundant guys. ;)
Last edited by LP, of the Fires on Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:01 am

K, this may be a dumb question, but here it goes. If you steal a creature with Conscripts and then blink it with the Angel, do you keep the creature indefinitely?
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:09 am

Yes, that's how it works. Good luck with getting 9 mana in play though :D
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:16 am

Yeah, I know. :rolleyes2:

Still, it's good to know. Anything can happen. One of the best things to happen to me this season is that I've learned to slow down when playing aggro (weird, I know) and work my way through some grindy games. I've had games with my Mono Red go well into 10+ turns before I maneuvered my way into winning.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:33 am

Definitely an important skill to have.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
photodyer
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 1870
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:09 am
Location: Lees Summit, MO

Postby photodyer » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:37 am

I'm over here in my thinking as well. Windstrider and I were trying to come up with a package that could do punishment in the meta without having to rely on combat, and I think I found the trail of logic that lead to the development of The Aristocrats. We wanted to develop a deck that dealt direct damage, likely combo-based, but that could then do a sideboard transform over to a more traditional mid-aggressive deck that would still have some tricksey plays.

So we looked at the options...best thing going isBlasphemous Act + Boros Reckoner. But we wanted more direct life access, so add Blood Artist. Still more direct damage, next natural choice is [card]Geralf's Messenger[/card]. That gives you both primary and secondary wincons. To maximize Blood Artist and/or BA, however, you need a source of cheap creatures-
-enter Lingering Souls, 4 creatures in 1 card. But we also want to have something on the board early to stall out creature decks, so Thrill-Kill Assassin seemed well-positioned to do either offense or defense as needed.

All this obviously brought us to Dega colors; hitting Messenger and Reckoner in the same deck meant having almost all mana capable of casting both, so Black as the core color with white and red duals for at least 20 of the lands in the deck (8 shocks + 8 checks + 4 guildgates). That left to my thinking 4 mana open, and my thoughts were (for a control-heavy meta) 2 CoS + 1 Vault + 1 swamp.

So there was the combo-driven direc- damage core. From there, the engines needed completed. Falkenrath Aristocrat was a given--the card is insane with readily-sackable creatures--and Restoration Angel would enable blinking Messenger for more damage. Since Messenger is
already there, Gravecrawler is the no-brainer for renewable sacrifice...but this is where I think Sam Black hit the wall.

The issue at this point is card count--to effectively cycle Gravecrawler, you have to have a significant Zombie presence, generally at least the core 12 (Messenger + Crawler + Ghoul). But that begins to make the deck unworkable because there simply are not enough slots:

[deck]Creatures
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Blood Artist
2 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Restoration Angel

Other Spells
4 Lingering Souls
3 Blasphemous Act

Mana Base
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Swamp[/deck]

The problem here is that you still need:

-Another sac source beyond Aristocrat
-Removal/utility; obviously [card]Orzhov Charm[/
card] and Tragic Slip make the most sense with this deck

TKA is a card I like in the meta, but it is the biggest outlier in the list so it can go to make room for another sac source (likely Bloodthrone Vampire in this build to go with the Caverns), but that still leaves fewer slots than I want. You can trim back the number of LS mainboard and such, but all such trimming starts to dilute the original intent of the deck.

I freely admit that I don’t know what’s in Sam Black’s head, but I’m betting that his thinking went down this path as he talked about having considered Blood Artist and a Zombie base and couldn’t get it where he wanted it. The idea of a direct-damage driven deck that can also aggro it up is really compelling, but there just doesn’t seem to be room to make it all happen. I thought about maybe leaving out the Zombie subtheme and just going with Messenger and putting TKA back in, but it seems to weaken the deck not
to have crawler even with LS. Am I wrong? Could the idea work without the full Zombie complement?

I’d really love to hear other thoughts and suggestions here. Realistically, the existing Aristocrats is likely the best overall build, but I’d welcome discussion of the deck from this angle.
Last edited by photodyer on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Righteous sig by NBW

Skaldic Master of Fiery Salvation

Common Sense is now a Mythic Rare.

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:01 am

Firstly, though Martell won, it was a Sam Black deck, but that's not really important. From what I remember, it definitely started as a blood artist deck, but testing proved that the oomph wasn't there. The idea was to have a bunch of sacrifce engines going and blood artist keeping tally. Where you run into problems is with the very unweildly manabase. It's basically B/R zombies only twice as bad, since you want to curve Black>Something>triple Dega>Triple dega+1. You get headaches planning your caverns when you have obzedat in your deck as well.

Decks that I've seen that did have potential to work where the various Orzhov zombie decks that abused Resto+messenger for life loss in additon to simply playing Resto and Messenger...probably the 2 best cards in there respective colors. You take a power dip, but gain consistency. Adding Bloodthrone vampire or Cartel aristocrat to your sac engine gives you added
consistency of pinging affects. Since you're in a control meta I believe, dega colors are fine if you assume your only going to have to play against hyper aggro maybe once over the course of a night. If that's the case, yeah, FA can stay, though Boros reckoner starts looking more anemic as it's only good in creature dense environments without abrupt decays and craterhoof beheemoths running amok.

Personally, I'm not sure if blood artist is good enough to worth building around, hence Aristocrats going with Skirsdag High priest. It just feels underpowered when things don't come together.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:06 am

Not only is BA underpowered, but it significantly increases the number of 'do-nothing' draws the deck has, and a lack of proactivity is deadly against the aggro decks of the format. There is a reason PSully played WALKING CORPSE over BA :P
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:13 am

I really hate blood artist :(
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:27 am

I remember that. I also remember Cyan saying it was obviously a bad choice because Sully wasn't the top placing zombies player. Some people are slaves to results.

Foolish consistency is the Hobgoblin of tiny minds.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:31 am

Cyan is not as smart as he thinks he is. The reasoning PSully gave, which I agree with is that on an empty board, or in topdeck mode, Walking Corpse is a million times better. Walking Corpse also increased the amount of draws where you went 2 power guy into 2 power guy, which is ironically a MUCH better average draw than 2 power guy into 0 power guy. Blood Artist can certainly get powerful in multiples, but with the loss of phantasmal image and/or phyrexian metamorph, that is really hard to do. The BR lists should have always excluded it.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
photodyer
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 1870
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:09 am
Location: Lees Summit, MO

Postby photodyer » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:44 am

LK - a case of stupid on my part...I knew it was Black's deck and just brain-cranked. Posted edited to give credit where it's due.

Yeah, building off of BA really can work--we were looking at another board wipe in the deck as well, going back to the Br Kamikaze concept--but I agree that this meta won't allow the room to do it. Red sligh running Wolf was already bane to the sac-style of build, but BTE just upended the scales completely. I can grant that, and honestly I was looking at Artist more like a spell than a creature (and LS as a creature rather than a spell). The concept would be to drop BA on an already busy board and wrath for a big life swing rather than trying to get multiple Artists on the field. Zombies fit that plan (and BAct) because of their resilence.

So...the consensus then is what Black decided, which is that Artist can't get it done it this meta. So the next question is the one that came up
earlier today between Z and Khaos--is Reckoner worth keeping in the build? With Artist, he makes sense as the core of a combo sac deck with multiple ways to bomb the field for big life swings. But is Reckoner + Blasphemous Act worth keeping without Artist as a plan B. And from there, the question is whether FA is worth keeping red in the mix.

Which took me to my deck concept that I was playing with--doing the Orzhov Zombie core of Aristocrats spashing into Esper to pick up Evil Twin and access to blue counters. The deck maximizes out the blink interactions with Messenger as you are running a full set of Resto + Twin, who if cast with Messenger on the field should almost always copy him first before permuting over into another creature. The question is whether that is worth moving out of Black's Dega build and losing FA. For sake of consideration, here's the Esper version again:

[deck]Creatures
4 Gravecrawler
3 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Cartel Aristocrat
2 Disciple of
Griselbrand
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Evil Twin
4 Restoration Angel
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council

Other Spells
2 Blind Obedience
2 Orzhov Charm
2 Tragic Slip
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls

Mana Base
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Watery Grave
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Orzhov Guildgate
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring
2 Contaminated Ground
2 Underworld Connections/Disciple of Bolas
2 Lingering Souls
1 Tragic Slip
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Supreme Verdict[/deck]

LK, you gave me some feedback before that I've applied to the deck, and Zeman posited that BlOb and Contaminated Ground should not make the cut. So first question--is there any benefit to trying to play this over The Aristocrats as it stands? If so, what tweaks would you recommend?

I love Z's proposed BU tempo deck, but not having been a Delver/tempo player ever I am finding that I am very much running
with training wheels at this point. I just found out that we have both a GP trial and PTQ coming up here in a couple of weeks, and I'm giving serious consideration to making a run at it. Dos Rakis just is not getting there in the local meta, and competitive numbers indeed suggest that it has just been pushed out. The concept behind Aristocrats really fits in my head best right now. My honest question is whether my admittedly "pet" Esper deck is worth pursuing, or whether it's time to just start grinding with Aristocrats. I would appreciate your honest opinions, as I always do!
Image
Righteous sig by NBW

Skaldic Master of Fiery Salvation

Common Sense is now a Mythic Rare.

User avatar
redthirst
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4346
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Postby redthirst » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:55 pm

Okay, I'm going to give this thing a whirl - I love "stupid" aggro with more lines of play than my opponent can figure out.

Anyone mind hooking a brother up with a current polished list?
Image
Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

User avatar
photodyer
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 1870
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:09 am
Location: Lees Summit, MO

Postby photodyer » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:44 pm

The list Z has posted a few frames up would be a damn good place to start. He doesn't have a SB, but if you look at some of the lists up in the primer you can likely pull one together without much trouble. I'm thinking SG, Sorin, Obzedat, GY hate, perhaps UC for card draw in the control MU's, 2 more LS, removal, Mentor of the Meek, possibly threatens and so on.
Image
Righteous sig by NBW

Skaldic Master of Fiery Salvation

Common Sense is now a Mythic Rare.

User avatar
redthirst
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4346
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Postby redthirst » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:24 pm

Sounds good. I'll give it a whirl.
Image
Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:07 pm

I was goldfishing with a build very similar to Z's and this deck is just nuts. I can't wait to get out and play some live games with it.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
redthirst
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4346
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Postby redthirst » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:57 pm

How's it match up against the super fast Aggro builds?
Image
Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:54 pm

Well, it obviously has a difficult time against Mono Red since Aristocrats run mostly humans. That Stromkirk just runs away with the game unless you can Slip it or Charm it. I imagine those BTE Gruul decks would be difficult to deal with as well. I'll need to playtest to know for sure.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
zemanjaski
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 11348
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby zemanjaski » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 pm

You can't realistically beat a BTE opening when on the draw.
Image
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:28 am

Aristocrats is basically the Jund of Aggro decks. Jund can beat everything consistently but Reanimator. Aristocrats can beat everything consistently but Red based Stromkirk decks. I mean this in the sense that the dual r/g gruul decks sometimes have consistency issues(do to running forests and arbor elf), while the mono red spalsh rancor decks are...brutal. Even then though, with the aristocrats having adopted Tragic slip into the main, noble decks are beatable now, though still less then a coin flip. Blitz decks are actually a coinflip once you've played a matchup a lot. Off the top of my head(my list is saved at my comp at home, still at grandma's house):

[deck]
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Skirsdag High Priest(love this card)
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Silverblade Paladin
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Restoration Angel
2 Zealous Conscripts

3 Lingering Souls
3 Orzhov Charm
2 Tragic
Slip

24 lands, with a single vault.

Sideboard:
2 Tragic Slip
1 Mark of Mutiny
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Nearheath Pilgrim
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Mentor of the Meek(do not cut this card)
1 Skirsdag High Priest(I'd prefer for you to not cut this card)
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Duress
1 Cathedral Sanctifier
1 Zealous Conscripts(can be anything)[/deck]

I like the board because you can do just about anything with your deck in sideboard games. I used to play bad things like rest in peace, but you're better of just staying as an aggro deck with the addition of threaten affects against reanimator decks. Against grindy decks that you don't have to race, You just outgrind them with obzedat, high priests, and mentor of the meek. If you are worried about the mirror, I'd add war priest of thrune and Curse of death's hold to the side.

@Jerry: There actually is merit to you pursuing your pet deck if you really want to dedicate yourself to it, but generally for a PTQ, if
you consider yourself a good enough player, you don't need an angle. You just have to take a good, proven deck and play tight while your opponents beat themselves for the first 5 rounds. Once you get to "crunch time" hope you get in the zone and play amazing magic because then your competition will be really good and you'll(hopefully) be playing some amazing games.

Edit: Basic Aristocrat Matchup Guide:

Naya Blitz: About Even.
Naya Midrange: Slightly favorable assuming they don't play bonfire.
Jund: Slightly Favorable. You lose when the Rakdos's Return your hand and you either have no lingering souls in hand or you're in an unfavorable race against them drawing bonfires. Postboard games are favorable because you get to play obzedat.
Junk Reanimator: Favorable.
UWR control: LOL. This is actually an even matchup I think, but I rarely lose to it. The fact that knight of infamy doesn't care about augur or restoration angel seriously neuters what the deck is trying to do though.
Gruul
Decks: unfavorable. Unless they're the arbor elf/silverheart versions. Then even.
Aggro Jund. Unfavorable Pre-Board. Postboard, even to favorable. They tend to dilute there deck when boarding when they should simply present there starting 60.
Humanimator: Probably really bad if they don't board out the combo. If you expect this deck to be big, I'd leave 1 or 2 hard reanimation hate spells in the board. Purify the grave is probably enough since you just need to hit Glory's Rise, but make sure you can kill a huntmaster consistently.

But really, this deck can beat everything because I say so. Play it. Just say yes.
Last edited by LP, of the Fires on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
redthirst
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4346
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Postby redthirst » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:41 am

K, as someone who hasn't played the deck yet, that SB is not obvious at all, what does the SB plan look like?

And I promise I'll quit being so needy and will actually add to the discussion when I get some time in with the list.
Image
Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

User avatar
LP, of the Fires
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4857
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 am

Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:48 am

It's all good. Firstly, Game one, you pretend your a human aggro deck half the time and then you say LOLOLOL Falkenrath aristocrat is broken and just kill people with that. Or you act like a midrange deck with lingering souls while attacking with a night of infamy until the board gets clogged and you start making Demon tokens. With that established, when you start sideboarding, you have a choice of staying as the same aggro human deck with light disruption, or going straight midrange.

When you want to go midrange, you usually board out most of the human package: CotP, KoI(against non white decks), Silverblade paladin etc. for Sorin, Mentor of the Meek, removal, and 5 drops.

Against Control, your just taking out removal for disruption like Duress and depending on the deck(say esper), your trading conscripts for obzedat or Resto Angel for a Sorin.

Against Aggro, you bring in the 3 lifegain creatures, More removal, and
sometimes the High priest and I generally shave numbers of Falkenrath Aristocrat, and some of the Cheaper guys.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

User avatar
Khaospawn
Khaospawn's beautiful and unique title
Posts: 9529
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm
Location: Largo, Florida

Postby Khaospawn » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:52 am

redthirst needy? Now I've heard it all.
Image
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

User avatar
redthirst
Tire Aficionado
Posts: 4346
(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO)
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Postby redthirst » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:53 am

That's straight breaking my brain. I'm not a fan of one-ofs...
Image
Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...


Return to “Archives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests