[Primer] PyroRed

[magicdownunder]

[quote="F.I.A » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:53 pm"]With Chained to the Rocks, Walter White shouldn't have much problem against MoWs. Something I wish PyroRed could have.

After a few fights against those rogue enchant decks (Turn 1 Gladecover Scout you) and the ever-present roadblock Sylvan Caryatid, I'm thinking about Glaring Spot. Your Cackler got blocked by an overconfident plant-thingy? Drop that artifact and Shock it to ruin their manabase.

It also work as a better, albeit more expensive (and telegraphed) Seismic Stomp.

Edit: Yeah, it does nothing against MoW, except buying us an alpha strike at the cost of [mana]4[/mana].[/quote:
1ozbgvn0]

You'll think that normally, except they run 3-4 Cyclonic Rift which they can bounce your Chained to the Rocks and ##-4-1 you. (not the most peasant experience)

[zemanjaski]

These lists are getting very tuned, which is great. Whenever I see lists with SBs like these I know that they've been built by competent pilots and heavily tested.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think I might give Walter a go at FNM. I noticed these lists lack Assemble tgw Legion / wear&tear / any other white cards. Is there no other white cards worth playing? Is 4 white cards worth the splash?

[DocLawless]

I have 2x Boros Charm and 2x Wear//Tear in the side, along with Chained to the Rocks numbers 3 and 4. White splash would still be worth it to me for Chained alone.

Someone here tested Assemble the Legion. I can't recall who, or what the verdict was.

[Lightning_Dolt]

[quote="DocLawless » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:50 pm"]I have 2x Boros Charm and 2x Wear//Tear in the side, along with Chained to the Rocks numbers 3 and 4. White splash would still be worth it to me for Chained alone.

Someone here tested Assemble the Legion. I can't recall who, or what the verdict was.[/quote

Assemble seems like it would just beat mono-black...

[Helios]

I've been playing Assemble for weeks now and have never drawn it

[magicdownunder]

I have 2x Boros Charm and 2x Wear//Tear in the side, along with Chained to the Rocks numbers 3 and 4. White splash would still be worth it to me for Chained alone.

Someone here tested Assemble the Legion. I can't recall who, or what the verdict was.

Helios likes it because its great VS B/x/x and can dominate the board once you maintain control.

I dislike it because its much too slow, does nothing against Jace or Trample decks.

EDIT: Ooooh helios got here before me

[zemanjaski]

I can verify it's an auto-win vs Mono Black; but you're already heavily favored there so the decision was made to cut it for cards in harder matchups.

[Helios]

As I've mentioned several times now, it is an appropriate SB choice for Walter White (no BTE) in my meta, which is not MODO. I wouldn't play it on MODO either.

[F.I.A]

If given the time to accumulate at least two Mustards, Assemble just wrecks mono black and make them wish they are running something else instead of those DDs.

Other than that, it has not done anything notable to other match-ups.

[DocLawless]

I play black devotion on the side, and I can say that everything I'm worried will happen to wreck my plan are things PyroRed will do frequently.

[Helios]

I play black devotion on the side, and I can say that everything I'm worried will happen to wreck my plan are things PyroRed will do frequently.

Say more.

[DocLawless]

I find myself not attacking if I might be trading, and not blocking as aggressively as I should, thinking I'll make up for it with removal and Gary or Erebos. And I'm trading even more Life for card advantage with Thoughtsieze and Underworld Connections, so when you consider how many sources of damage we run in PyroR, either my own deck's engine shortens the clock or I get put off using those cards entirely. So cast burn to keep me off my devotion, and not to the dome, and swing away. Two-for-ones vs black devotion count for more like 2-for-1.5 when they make Gary less effective. PyroRed can dish it out faster than black devotion can gain it back.

Making it worse, in the case of my deck, splashing for a second color slows MBD down even more, which makes it an even better MU for PyroR.

[TubeHunter]

skullcracking people in response to a master of waves block is the best.

Swing with ash zelot?

Block with master of waves.
Skullcrack, you take 3, first strike kills the master, lose all of your tokens.

[zemanjaski]

I look forward to trying out UR next set, there's a few exciting cards and who knows what new toys there might be (similarly we need the RG Crusader, which might make Gruul playable as well).

[LaZerBurn]

skullcracking people in response to a master of waves block is the best.

Swing with ash zelot?

Block with master of waves.
Skullcrack, you take 3, first strike kills the master, lose all of your tokens.

What did I miss here, (apart from a brilliant S/B thread while I was sleeping here in the UK)- U doesn't gain life so why bring in Skullcrack and MoW is Pro Red?

[LaZerBurn]

Work now, back to play go over the latest tweaks laters - thanks Z and MDU and everyone else who contributed

[zemanjaski]

Skullcrack gets rid of protection. It's wayyyy too narrow for my liking though.

[TubeHunter]

Skullcrack- damage can't be prevented


Pedit: Yeah, Im not saying it was good, but i was playing an awful version of pyrored (no satyrs, no pheonixes, 2 Magma Jet), so I didn't have much else. Was memorable though.

[F.I.A]

Protection covers DEBT.

D - Damage (Prevents all damage from the source to the permanent)
E - Enchant (Auras from the source cannot be enchanted on the permanent)
B - Block (Permanent cannot be blocked by creatures of similar source)
T - Target (Permanent cannot be target of spells/abilities of said source)

Skullcrack removes the D part. But of course, you need to make the opponent block with a MoW before all this can happen.

@MDU: Hmm, it's true that Chained is not a permanent fix on MoW. If there was one, we would never have any problem with Devo Blue.

[magicdownunder]

Protection covers DEBT.

D - Damage (Prevents all damage from the source to the permanent)
E - Enchant (Auras from the source cannot be enchanted on the permanent)
B - Block (Permanent cannot be blocked by creatures of similar source)
T - Target (Permanent cannot be target of spells/abilities of said source)

Skullcrack removes the D part. But of course, you need to make the opponent block with a MoW before all this can happen.

@MDU: Hmm, it's true that Chained is not a permanent fix on MoW. If there was one, we would never have any problem with Devo Blue.

You could always Doom Blade it or Ultimate Price it, but MonoBlack Devotion makes it a hard
call to run those cards. (Plus R/B doesn't have a scry land.... yet)

[zemanjaski]

[deck]Rakdos[/deck]
Creatures
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells
1 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
1 Ultimate Price

Lands
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mutavault
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Act of Treason
1 Dreadbore
2 Doom Blade
1 Erobos, God of the Dead
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tymaret, Murder King
+other stuff
[/deck]

[Platypus]

^Forgot two Chandras?

[LP, of the Fires]

The most appealing thing about RB right now is honestly slaughter games. Oh hey, you have no more gray merchant/sphinx/jace etc. GG.

RE: UR. I've been killed by quicken>armed a couple times. Feels bad.

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks for the Skullcrack explanation guys

[Keftenk]

^Forgot two Chandras?

Looks like it, @58. Though, who knows? It's Z, I wouldn't be surprised if some janky card that he has made into an All-Star is actually supposed to be in place of the 2 missing lol.

[zemanjaski]

It's two Chandra. Sorry guys!

[LP, of the Fires]

Goddamnit you fuckers. I have my open in 4 days and while I've been dead set on big red, I started testing Pyro Red and it's APPEALING. Just stomped Esper, Mono-Black, GR agro(Stern Version) and the mirror in testing. Mono-blue was fine. I was mana screwed, color screwed, you name it, but I always had 2/3 dudes on the board and/or reach so it didn't matter. YP$, phoenix's and Chnadra are still a beating and I think the deck is phenomenally positioned IRL.

[Keftenk]

I'm curious about the SB decisions with PyroRed. Some of them are obvious, but like PyroBoros, is the intention to still SB out all our 1 drops versus things such as mirror, GR Ramp, etc?

[vundo]

dang i thought z was on walter white
now im not sure if i want to play boros or monored for this week's open

anyways, i playtested against mono black, U/W and esper with 1-of purphoros in walter white and it just felt way too clunky and too cute
ive been using MDU's sideboard and i really want a 3rd skullcrack but im not sure what to replace. and my only reliable testing partners are on the above 3 decks so i haven't been able to witness the nightmare of gruul
im hoping to just dodge it all weekend

as a side note, last breath is obnoxious and made UW way harder than esper for me at least

[zemanjaski]

They're both very good choices. MDU and I have been winning everything online. Just go with the deck you feel you'll pilot better!

[F.I.A]

What Zem said. While Walter White has more choices to go with, you have to get used to playing tapped lands and the risk of getting color-screwed as well.

[vundo]

mana hasn't been an issue whatsoever with walter white
i think my main debate is if i want MDU's reckoner/fanatic board or more

*edit* Oh and zem, do you mind explaining a bit of your thought process on going back to mono red?

[Link]

mana WILL cost you a game or three with WW especially in a huge open, there's just so many games.


LP you KNOW pyro reds the real deal.... everyone is ready for Rg devotion (or at least know the angle you're coming at)

I also know it will use your potential more... Rg plays out like a combo deck while pyroreds the most thinking I've ever had to do while tapping mountains.


skullcrack+elektilrikery is
WAAAY cute vs. mow haha.... but Id still rather go for that then risk getting my chained rifted mid combat...

[magicdownunder]

mana hasn't been an issue whatsoever with walter white
i think my main debate is if i want MDU's reckoner/fanatic board or more

*edit* Oh and zem, do you mind explaining a bit of your thought process on going back to mono red?

He has always been on PyroRed, PyroRed is most likely the best choice to take to MODO right now due to the huge influx of MonoBlack Devotion players.

While its true PyroRed has fewer options, it makes up for it in consistency and explosiveness - if you want a deck which greatly rewards Game Sense and Foresight PyroRed is for you, just be warn its much less forgiving.

EDIT: Keep in mind guys, we all agree the the original Rg list are good MU's for Pyro list - its the newer version which is causing the problems -
this isn't just for me but Zem himself.

[Link]

@vundo: I think he's posted it before, it's because it's better positioned and more consistent online. he's said if you expect a lot if Gr Walter white is better off

he also just loves his mountains (and full mutavaults)

also skullcrack is just way better than erebos in Rakdos, anytime. chandra is just better for CA all day


uu ninjas

[magicdownunder]

Last Time

---

I just 3-1 Standard Daily Event 6162886 (which I'll post later) I manage to cast him once, the other times I saw him he was either sent to the bottom or stayed in my hand.

The game where I did cast him, he "felt" better then Chandra (I say felt because her "draw a card ability" is really strong) I'm not disgusted with him yet so I'll keep at him .[/quote]

Here is the (3-1) I promised its from Standard Daily Event 6162886 - these are not the most impressive videos you'll ever watch since its more like a display of cripple magic:

Here is the list:

[deck]Australian Winter BBQ[/deck]

Replays:
G1: MonoRed Devotion
G2: MonoBlue Devotion
G3: MonoBlack Devotion
G4: Black-Green Rock

EDIT: Somehow manage to get another 3-1 with the same list (had an awful start) I blame Z for chatting with me (it wasn't because I was being greedy on my plays of course not...... )

Here is my last set of videos testing Purphoros, God of the Forge, I have two other sets running my new list which I'll post tomorrow:

G1: GR Aggro
G2: MonoBlack Devotion
G3: UW Control
G4: UW Control

I had a really bad start to this DE, pretty much gave G1 away and almost proceeded to lose G2 because I wanted a "BIG" finish rather then playing it smart.

I'm cutting
about seven cards from the MD and a few from the SB because they're not doing what I want them too - I'm really comfortable with my new list going to into MOCS11 and I believe it gives me the tools to have a fighting chance against Colossal Gruul and a very solid game against Mono Blue Devotion.

p.s. encase your wondering Purphoros, God of the Forge is horrible, unless you can combine him with legions or something hes just ends up being a win more card which come in much too late.

@Fate

Unless your doing thing silly like boarding in 4+ white spells or running lands which only produce white mana, you won't have any issue with colors since you have so many turns and effects which can help you find it and with no real need to play the spell until mid-late games its not a problem.

[windstrider]

@MDU — Thank you for the hard work you've put in with testing WW. I need to find the time to watch the videos you've posted. I don't have the time to play as much as I would like.

Re: Purphoros — Based on your testing, he can be removed from consideration. Shame really. He looks so good in theory, but not in this shell. Oh well, back to the binder with him and back to the drawing board.

I'm curious as to what cards you've cut from the main deck. Please don't say Ash Zealot. She's so good in a lot of ways. I'm not sure I could quit her.

I'm really thinking we need a separate thread for the Walter White variant. It plays out much differently than the new PyroRed lists with BTE. Is anyone up to the challenge for writing a Primer, or should we just steal from this thread to start the discussion and see
what develops?

[LaZerBurn]

I like everything in the same place; I see WW as a variant, the core of YP, lots of burn, Chandra and her birds is the same the supporting cast varies is all I'll read both threads if it goes that way though

[Helios]

I'm content maintaining both in one thread. Speaking of which, apologies for things not being as finished as I'd like - school has been rough lately.