[Primer] PyroRed

[Woj]

I'm really thinking we need a separate thread for the Walter White variant. It plays out much differently than the new PyroRed lists with BTE. Is anyone up to the challenge for writing a Primer, or should we just steal from this thread to start the discussion and see what develops?

Also MDU is moving towards BTE in WW as well, looking forward to testing this change myself although I'm not in love with going down to 3 for each of the other 2 drops (esp 3 YP$)

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm really thinking we need a separate thread for the Walter White variant. It plays out much differently than the new PyroRed lists with BTE. Is anyone up to the challenge for writing a Primer, or should we just steal from this thread to start the discussion and see what develops?

Also MDU is moving towards BTE in WW as well, looking forward to testing this change myself although I'm not in love with going down to 3 YP$, maybe 2 FFS?

I have come to hate BTE. Would really prefer not to.

I tried to sift through the thread, but there is just too much info.
Anyone have opinions on Boros Charm and Wear // Tear in WW?

[Helios]

I was running one Wear // Tear and it was fine, just cut it because it was unnecessary. You're pretty much only using it to kill whip. The consensus on Boros Charm is pretty much if you're having issues with control, play it. Otherwise, don't worry about it. What does your meta look like, JS?

James, one of your posts has an errant bracket and I hate you for it.

[Valdarith]

Play BTE in PyroRed and you'll come to appreciate the card. It really does a lot. I've won countless games simply by timewalking my opponent with BTE on turn two, and this PyroRed list has much lower variance than the Gruul lists that played her last season.

Of course I'm a little more biased since I was the first to suggest BTE in the PyroRed builds to begin with, but I like to think after playing both the BTE and non-BTE lists that I know how necessary BTE is.

[F.I.A]

Emmy gives us an edge against control and weenie aggro variants. Unless they have a Detention Sphere, they can only remove one creature per turn. This allows us to keep a consistent power of 4 (3 creatures, with one expected to be removed) on the table.

While Ashley is the better creature in a vacuum, first strike won't do anything when your opponent throw a Shock or Azorius Charm or Doom Blade at her.

[FullofGravy]

I think Boros Charm is going to be reasonable if people are going to be playing something like the Naya control list, as they seem to be geared toward using Anger/Mortars overload to take us out of the game. And obviously Verdict decks.

[Helios]

Boros Charm is good against Verdict decks, the point is that you don't really need it.

[Woj]

My current list hedging towards the Mono U and R matchups while still maintaining strong Mono B and explosiveness of MonoRed Pyro, at the cost of 2 Mutavaults

[deck]
Lands - 22
20 Mountain
2 Mutavault

Creatures - 24
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Pheonix

Burn - 12
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Flames of the Firebrand

Best Card in Standard - 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

SIdeboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Act of Treason
3 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
[/deck]

[Helios]

Looks solid.

[Elricity]

@ Helios, ill take it into consideration. Even 19 sources is blergh.

Will test this 75:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells
1 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Lands
18 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Sideboard
3 Act of Treason
1 Burning Earth
3 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Shock
3 Skullcrack
[/deck]

*Shock in the board could be a 4th Mortars. Maybe -1 Flames, +1 Mortars?

*Flames in the main could be
Mortars. Thoughts?

Flames MB gives you the chance to do silly things like kill something and recur a phoenix that mortars doesn't let you. I haven't played enough mono blue to see if that matters there or not.

I have to agree with the others that Fanatic isn't a completely crazy idea either, even without reckoner. 6-8 devotion should be the norm and the decks you're worried about aren't exactly packing tons of removal.

[windstrider]

I'm really thinking we need a separate thread for the Walter White variant. It plays out much differently than the new PyroRed lists with BTE. Is anyone up to the challenge for writing a Primer, or should we just steal from this thread to start the discussion and see what develops?

Also MDU is moving towards BTE in WW as well, looking forward to testing this change myself although I'm not in love with going down to
3 YP$, maybe 2 FFS?

I have come to hate BTE. Would really prefer not to.

I tried to sift through the thread, but there is just too much info. Anyone have opinions on Boros Charm and Wear // Tear in WW?

I have an irrational dislike of BTE as well. I understand her explosive potential and what she does for the deck. I just don't like her.

I like the Charm since all three modes have their uses. It's especially nice to put a UW player on tilt after they try to Verdict your field. It may not be necessary with Phoenix, but it is satisfying. It's also good Doom Blade protection.

Wear // Tear hasn't been as necessary, though it would certainly have its uses against troublesome artifacts like the god Weapons or enchantments like Unflinching Courage. If you're having trouble with them, keep a copy handy.

[Elricity]

quote]

Also MDU is moving towards BTE in WW as well, looking forward to testing this change myself although I'm not in love with going down to 3 YP$, maybe 2 FFS?

I tried to sift through the thread, but there is just too much info. Anyone have opinions
on Boros Charm and Wear // Tear in WW?

I like the Charm since all three modes have their uses. It's especially nice to put a UW player on tilt after they try to Verdict your field. It may not be necessary with Phoenix, but it is satisfying. It's also good Doom Blade protection.

Wear // Tear hasn't been as necessary, though it would certainly have its uses against troublesome artifacts like the god Weapons or enchantments like Unflinching Courage. If you're having trouble with them, keep a copy handy.

I personally think boros charm is useful for any midrange deck running a fair amount of removal. You really want to keep YP on the field if at all possible. That it counters verdict is just icing, frankly.

Wear // Tear is rarely situational and easy to drop.

[Link]

I like your reasoning re: is Chandra better than two magma jets, Z.

I just think the "game plan" versus mono black shouldn't revolve around "staying at card parity or better" in which case chandra is definitely better than magma jet with no targets.

I think VCA/Mana efficiency is really important in this MU. At 4 mana, I MUCH rather be playing a topdecked YP+magma jet than a chandra, because THEY can usually only do 1 thing per turn (especially since their 2cmc removal is DEF used up by then)

I know you're very competent going late in games Z, but I'm not, ESPECIALLY against a deck with a 6/6 flier. Those are just not going to go away, even if you tap/ping them down. Eventually their cards will take over the game (hell even pack rat can if it goes late enough), so I like to close things out early and the best card for that is magma jet. I might be overvaluing the scry 2, but like I said on the
key turn 4/5 I want to scry deep for act of treason/skullcrack, then just end the game.

If they've 1-1d you up the curve then your hand was just weak and Chandra won't be enough in my experience, because of how she lines up versus demons and downfall. She's VERY hard to protect from demon unless you have an act of YP and chandra keeps drawing you spells. But of course you're winning a game in which you have the two best cards in your deck, what I really want to analyze is how well do you do in games WITHOUT YP? and JUST chandra and the rest of your cards? Let's say you've got a 1-drop that came under the curve, and a phoenix,

I think a better line is: Sac phoenix tap down demon, activate mutavault get in for 4. EoT Magma jet them (adds up yo), put a skullcrack/AoT on top. Proceed to win game. No removal spell gets them out of this, given the usual scenario where they can only kill one of your cards per turn or play a demon/merchant.

Chandra in this situation:
Comes down pings demon, you get
in for 4 (and chandra) 5 total. The untap, downfall chandra after you sac phoenix when they enter combat. Or maybe they just ultimate price phoenix, force you to sac 1-drop and your board is clear except for chandra, you untap ping and play phoenix (having not drawn your SB tech yet because you didnt scry we'll say), thats 3 damage a turn. which just isn't that threatening compared to the 6 you could've gotten from the magma jet line (card disadvantage be damned), and the potential to hold up skullcrack and just burn those fuckers out.


Idk, might be too situational an example. In PyroRakis I've consistently sided out Exava because it just lines up SO badly against their 4 mana plays, even though exava is usually house and can swing through nightveil spectre etc. Being able to play YP$ and hold up dark betrayal mana is brutally fucking awesome btw ;D, which has led me to this sort of game plan philosophy against them

[Tyrael]

Against what kind of WW have you tested this deck, zem? From my testing against most red aggro decks my WW deck with a splash of red for boros charm seemed to do quite fine actually...

Against exactly the variation you're describing (12x 1 drop, 10x 2 drop, 4 Banisher Priest, 23 land, 3 Spear, 4 Charm, 4 Path), I just wreck it.

I'm currently running:

[deck]Creature (25)
3 Banisher Priest
3 Daring Skyjek
3 Dryad Militant
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Imposing Sovereign
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Precinct Captain
4 Soldier of the Pantheon

Land (23)
3x
Mutavault
12x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph

Instant (8)
4x Boros Charm
4x Brave the Elements

Enchantment (2)
2x Spear of Heliod

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride

Sideboard (15)
3x Boros Reckoner
3x Fiendslayer Paladin
3x Celestial Flare
2x Glare of Heresy
2x Path of Bravery
2x Renounce the Guilds
[/deck]

Should I just accept that anything as fast as pyro red is an instant loss or are there things I could improve about the match up? (sorry for going off topic btw)

[Elricity]

If you can't find a non-creature way to keep us off Young Pyromancer or Chandra's Phoenix, we're eventually going to out draw you. Banisher priest just isn't removal versus us. You don't have enough mountains to use chained but I still think it's correct to say you need to be the control deck versus us to have a chance and your current removal package does nothing to us. Fiendslayer/reckoner however are in the right direction.

Our whole gameplan is basically to be to burn your best pieces and beat you down. Our backup plan is to poke you down with both Chandra's until YP builds up enough tokens for the alpha strike. Better removal stops us on both plans.

[Link]

pyro red isnt particularly fast, I think you actually have a decent match-up versus traditional mono red with ash zealots and whatever.

The reason Pyro red stops you is because Chandra is basically an edict every turn for 16 of your creatures. Spear is honestly your best card against us as we have no answer to it and it significantly reduces the effectiveness of our burn (spear+Fiendslayer is probably game as well unless yuo can't close fast enough for us to overload mortars).

I think the weakness of your list is threat density to be honest. 2 Ajani, 2 Spears, and 2 Heliods are a lot of synergistic cards to have that if we answer all your other plays on curve (shock into magma jet inot XXXX), you'll be stuck with a useless god and weapon.

So to improve the MU I'd fix yuor MB first
-2 Heliod (you're not turning him on versus us if we have any reasonable draw)
-2 Ajani (see below)
+4 fill out your 3 ofs. You want
to consistently play 1 drop, into 1 drop 1 drop and curve out with WW, so you really just need to increase the density of those plays by playing 4 of Imposing sovereign, militant, priest (aka what Z said with 12x 1 drops, 8-12x 2 drops, 4x Banisher priest).

I'd move Ajani to the SB as well for when you want that effect and cut the Renounce the guilds. Just doesn't seem to fit with the plan of WW (why would you side out your militants and familiars?)


Honestly your best bet is to burn out chandra with boros charm+ familiar G1, and hope to just be ahead on board because yuo have a lot more mana efficiency than us (if you make the changes I suggested). Also banisher priest solely for YP$ unless you're about to die to a phoenix

Post board is all about playing haymakers like Reckoner and Spear, and Fiendslayer paladin, and hoping we just don't overwhelm you with CA from pyromancer and answers while killing you with phoenix

[Helios]

Fate, your post makes me think you've abandoned Gruul and picked up Pyrored.

[InflatablePie]

G1: GR Aggro
G2: MonoBlack Devotion
G3: UW Control
G4: UW Control

First off, loving the music.

Second off, Match 3 Game 1. You scryed into a Phoenix and EOT Shocked for a PyroToken when he was tapped out. Which is a decent play, but had you waited for the Verdict, you could have Shocked next turn when he was tapped out (bringing him from 8, since you didn't get the 1/1 or the two damage from the Shock in
that case, to 6), Phoenixed to 4, and had the L-Strike and Mutavault coming up. I'm guessing he didn't have Charms/Last Breaths at that point either since he tapped 4/6 mana for Jace and did not care about Mutavault smacking him, and even mostly tapped out for a Verdict on the Satyr a few turns later.

Not sure how much it would have mattered but still.

[chlb]

Played BTE Red to disappointing 2-2 tonight.

Round 1: Esper Control 1-2
Round 2: Devotion Red 1-2
Round 3: Budget Esper Control 2-0
Round 4: Devotion Red 2-0

Nothing much to add, feels like I am stuck in a rut.

[Link]

Fate, your post makes me think you've abandoned Gruul and picked up Pyrored.

Click the link in my sig I'm still true to my colors (just made a post)!

I mostly play vicariously through nuwen and its the more competitive deck, so its good to keep up with it (fingers crossed for Xenagos, the God and a RG two drop though!!!)

[magicdownunder]

G1: GR Aggro
G2: MonoBlack Devotion
G3: UW Control
G4: UW Control

First off, loving the music.

Second off, Match 3 Game 1. You scryed into a Phoenix and EOT Shocked for a PyroToken when he was tapped out. Which is a decent play, but had you
waited for the Verdict, you could have Shocked next turn when he was tapped out (bringing him from 8, since you didn't get the 1/1 or the two damage from the Shock in that case, to 6), Phoenixed to 4, and had the L-Strike and Mutavault coming up. I'm guessing he didn't have Charms/Last Breaths at that point either since he tapped 4/6 mana for Jace and did not care about Mutavault smacking him, and even mostly tapped out for a Verdict on the Satyr a few turns later.

Not sure how much it would have mattered but still.

I was being greedy I deserved to lose that one

[InflatablePie]

Oh, I've been there. "Well if he has the Verdict I'm screwed but if he doesn't I still don't quite win... let's do it anyway!" *verdict* D:

[zemanjaski]

I like your reasoning re: is Chandra better than two magma jets, Z.

I just think the "game plan" versus mono black shouldn't revolve around "staying at card parity or better" in which case chandra is definitely better than magma jet with no targets.

Magma Jet is only ever dealing 2 damage. Chandra's +1 generates more than that every turn, so even if you're ignoring the CA arguments, Chandra will usually do more, so your arguments rests on the value of scry 2 being worth a card by itself (because shock isn't worth a card in a race and they need to spend a card at sorcery speed to kill Chandra). Scry 2 is typically considered to be worth less than 0.5 cards, so if it's doing anything but winning you the game, it's
doing less than any other card in your 75 (except Shock).

I think VCA/Mana efficiency is really important in this MU. At 4 mana, I MUCH rather be playing a topdecked YP+magma jet than a chandra, because THEY can usually only do 1 thing per turn (especially since their 2cmc removal is DEF used up by then)

I agree. Arguing that playing two spells in the abstract is more powerful than playing one spell is just stating the obvious though ~ playing two spells in a turn is what makes aggro decks advantaged over control decks (I've done a video lecture explaining this theory). It's also a pretty dishonest example that focuses only on the upside of your preferred configuration. There are a lot of situations where your two cards aren't doing a lot (either they have a doom blade or a spectre in play, in which case your configuration is actively generating them VCA). Chandra is substantially more powerful against Spectre, Gray Merchant, Doom Blade, Pharika's Cure and Devour
Flesh; YP is better in that it only costs 2, has implicit value against DD and creates tempo against Downfall. It's not clear cut that one is better and it's a pretty irrelevant discussion to have, but to say that having two cards is better than one and that playing two cards is better than playing one doesn't mean much; just like me saying id rather topdeck Chandra than Magma Jet if we've 1-for-1'd each other and now need to topdeck.

I know you're very competent going late in games Z, but I'm not, ESPECIALLY against a deck with a 6/6 flier. Those are just not going to go away, even if you tap/ping them down. Eventually their cards will take over the game (hell even pack rat can if it goes late enough), so I like to close things out early and the best card for that is magma jet. I might be overvaluing the scry 2, but like I said on the key turn 4/5 I want to scry deep for act of treason/skullcrack, then just end the game.

If they've 1-1d you up the curve then your hand was just
weak and Chandra won't be enough in my experience, because of how she lines up versus demons and downfall. She's VERY hard to protect from demon unless you have an act of YP and chandra keeps drawing you spells. But of course you're winning a game in which you have the two best cards in your deck, what I really want to analyze is how well do you do in games WITHOUT YP? and JUST chandra and the rest of your cards? Let's say you've got a 1-drop that came under the curve, and a phoenix,

I think a better line is: Sac phoenix tap down demon, activate mutavault get in for 4. EoT Magma jet them (adds up yo), put a skullcrack/AoT on top. Proceed to win game. No removal spell gets them out of this, given the usual scenario where they can only kill one of your cards per turn or play a demon/merchant.

You haven't given me any real info to engage with. You've just said "in this hypothetical board state, magma jet is good", but you've not given me any real way to agree or disagree
with your analysis.

I can think of situations where Chandra puts you in a winning position as well, so I don't know what this means really. Yes there are game states where Magma Jet can be good. You're right in trying to find which is better on average, rather than whether one is bad, but it feels like you're not considering two things;
- if they downfall Chandra after you ping, even if that's at instant speed, you got that value of the ping and an attack step, plus a card from their hand (say a card plus 1-5 damage). Again, Magma Jet only deals 2 plus scry 2 at -1 card, while Chandra forces them to use removal on her instead of a creature, which might go on to do more than the 2 damage Jet would;
- desecration demon isn't that good against Chandra. If you have Chandra down before DD then you're just crushing them because now you've got two activations; but even playing Chandra after DD to ping generates the aforementioned damage and then either they downfall her and we're in the place as above
or they attack with DD and you've got two falters out of the card. Sure if they have the perfect follow up of more removal as well them your in a bad spot but unless your Magma Jet was finding a lethal spell this one time you're even worse off there (Chandra's +1 generates more value on average than Jet in this matchup and they must kill Chandra immediately; they don't have to do anything about Jet, not that they can, because it doesn't generate lasting value beyond the scry).

Chandra in this situation:
Comes down pings demon, you get in for 4 (and chandra) 5 total. The untap, downfall chandra after you sac phoenix when they enter combat. Or maybe they just ultimate price phoenix, force you to sac 1-drop and your board is clear except for chandra, you untap ping and play phoenix (having not drawn your SB tech yet because you didnt scry we'll say), thats 3 damage a turn. which just isn't that threatening compared to the 6 you could've gotten from the magma jet line (card
disadvantage be damned), and the potential to hold up skullcrack and just burn those fuckers out.

It may be that the correct line is to use Chandra as either;
- double falter +1 damage; or
- falter, +1 damage and target opponent discards a card.

You can't win without an established board state, so throwing away your board state is actually often not the right play (though there are times where you can infinite loop Phoenix, they're rare). Chandra does a lot more for a board state than Magma Jet does, it's at least a permanent in play.

Idk, might be too situational an example. In PyroRakis I've consistently sided out Exava because it just lines up SO badly against their 4 mana plays, even though exava is usually house and can swing through nightveil spectre etc. Being able to play YP$ and hold up dark betrayal mana is brutally fucking awesome btw ;D, which has led me to this sort of game plan philosophy against them

You're right in that you
need to have a mindset of applying consistent pressure. I do think that you're undervaluing how bad their deck is against walkers though. Downfall is often worse than a counterspell (since the +1 is so good against their deck) or it's just Detention Sphere; Esper runs up to eight ways to remove walkers and Chandra still wrecks that deck; MBC only has four and they're often going to need to cast it on sonething else first.

Worst case, trading cards and generating 3-5 damage on average is fine. That's typical worst case. Both Chandra and Jet aren't doing much against a draw of removal > removal > DD > removal / merchant. But they usually don't have that.

So really, Chandra isn't great against Desecration Demon, but hopefully I've at least being able to show that she can actually be pretty good there, even when she's bad, and it isn't like Magma Jet answers DD either.

[Link]

Well said, I figured my argument was a bit biased.



I definitely dont think Chandras bad by any means, I just basically think any combination of 4cmc spells from them feels unbeatable to me (DD merchant whip) that I want to go as far under them as possible.

on other hand taking out chandra decreases the.overall power of our deck and requires us to have a near perfect draw (which magma jet.helps with)

then again youre the.one with like 80% vs mono black so maybe I just need to accept ive been nut drawn on and not reduce the decks power out of fear

as for your last point I think demon is very strong against walkers, and much better than d sphere out of esper, so it plays out more like 8 answers vs. her. but DD can definitely be managed...

[zemanjaski]

DD is good against walker decks, but pretty bad against this deck IMO. It's actively bad against YP, BTE and FFS so it lines up poorly against the core of your deck, and even worse against your SB cards.

I guess a big part of my comfort with playing Chandra is that I'd pay 4 for a falter with rebound plus 1 damage on it; that seems very good against their deck.

[magicdownunder]

DD is good against walker decks, but pretty bad against this deck IMO. It's actively bad against YP, BTE and FFS so it lines up poorly against the core of your deck, and even worse against your SB cards.

I guess a big part of my comfort with playing Chandra is that I'd pay 4 for a falter with rebound plus 1 damage on it; that seems very good against their deck.

I don't think DD is good against any Pyro list . . .

I also prefer Chandra vs MonoBlack though, esp. in the version with Ash

[LaZerBurn]

@ Woj - I like that list, was thinking along the same lines myself. Going to give it a try

[Elricity]

G1: GR Aggro
G2: MonoBlack Devotion
G3: UW Control
G4: UW Control

First off, loving the music.

Second off, Match 3 Game 1. You scryed into a Phoenix and EOT Shocked for a PyroToken when he was tapped out. Which is a decent play, but had you
waited for the Verdict, you could have Shocked next turn when he was tapped out (bringing him from 8, since you didn't get the 1/1 or the two damage from the Shock in that case, to 6), Phoenixed to 4, and had the L-Strike and Mutavault coming up. I'm guessing he didn't have Charms/Last Breaths at that point either since he tapped 4/6 mana for Jace and did not care about Mutavault smacking him, and even mostly tapped out for a Verdict on the Satyr a few turns later.

Not sure how much it would have mattered but still.

Game 3, he actually loses the moment he played that turn 2 pyromancer which unfortunately, is consistantly costing MDU games in these videos. The correct line was to scry turn 2, bury the shock land (18 life T2), draw the phoenix, swing 4(14 T3) and cast nothing turn 4 into the almost certain verdict (10 T4). UW verdicts, turn 5 plays yp, shocks, draws phoenix (8 life T5). Opponent has 3
more life but now MDU has 3 power on the board, 2 in hand and +2 draw (bottomed land and recurred phoenix). We don't know what else was in the opponent's hand but clearly leaving 2 lands in hand post verdict wasn't the right move. He even could have had the option of having the shock T4 if UW tries to Dsphere his phoenix.

Match 2 game 1 is the same thing except that time it dies to ultimate price with 2 burn and lands in hand. He might have lost that game anyway but he sealed it then when he was left with 5 damage in hand. Match 2 game 3, does it but at least he has backup threats. I would only ever consider T2 YP against mono blue, green, or white. Anyone have a scenario where you'd want to T2 YP against anything with removal?

[Woj]

Just finished Round 1 of a DE, MBC is honestly a bye. 2-0 so quickly and I was congratulated with expletives from the opponent.

Feeding demons elementals, skull cracking gary and faltering blockers for lethal with Chandra.... =)

Must be doing something right!

[Tyrael]

pyro red isnt particularly fast, I think you actually have a decent match-up versus traditional mono red with ash zealots and whatever.

The reason Pyro red stops you is because Chandra is basically an edict every turn for 16 of your creatures. Spear is honestly your best card against us as we have no answer to it and it significantly reduces the effectiveness of our burn (spear+Fiendslayer is probably game as well unless yuo can't close fast enough for us to overload mortars).

I think the weakness of your list is threat density to be honest. 2 Ajani, 2 Spears, and 2 Heliods are a lot of synergistic cards to have that if we answer all your other plays on curve (shock into magma jet inot XXXX), you'll be stuck with a useless god and weapon.

So to improve the MU
I'd fix yuor MB first
-2 Heliod (you're not turning him on versus us if we have any reasonable draw)
-2 Ajani (see below)
+4 fill out your 3 ofs. You want to consistently play 1 drop, into 1 drop 1 drop and curve out with WW, so you really just need to increase the density of those plays by playing 4 of Imposing sovereign, militant, priest (aka what Z said with 12x 1 drops, 8-12x 2 drops, 4x Banisher priest).

I'd move Ajani to the SB as well for when you want that effect and cut the Renounce the guilds. Just doesn't seem to fit with the plan of WW (why would you side out your militants and familiars?)


Honestly your best bet is to burn out chandra with boros charm+ familiar G1, and hope to just be ahead on board because yuo have a lot more mana efficiency than us (if you make the changes I suggested). Also banisher priest solely for YP$ unless you're about to die to a phoenix

Post board is all about playing haymakers like Reckoner and Spear, and Fiendslayer paladin, and hoping we just don'
t overwhelm you with CA from pyromancer and answers while killing you with phoenix

Thanks a lot, Fate! I am hesitant to stop using Heliod as he has proven to be a very powerful ally versus all sorts of midrange and aggro decks except for mono red which, as far as I know, no-one at my FNM is running except for me, hehe... I will move him and Ajani to the sideboard for now and I will evaluate the rest of the mainboard again based on your suggestions.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Woj - agreed I just went 3-0 against it, didn't miss the 2 Vaults

[Helios]

I can't think of any situation I'd play a T2 pyro if I had another play. Only time I've done it is when I had 3 in hand and no spells, just needed to jam some dudes at that point.

[InflatablePie]

Elricity: I'll play t2 Pyromancer often against UW/Esper, unless I have a Zealot or something in hand. With a hand of 4 land + pyro + shock, I'd rather apply early pressure and scry on a subsequent turn rather than hold the Pyro. Having only one creature on board when a Jace hits feels terrible. Even worse if the UW player had a Charm for the Cackler. I think I would have done the same there.

[zemanjaski]

The part of their that's strictly, unarguably wrong is the EOT shock when you know you need it to buy-back a Phoenix post wrath. The rest of it is ok; I don't mind the T2 YP, I like that more than turn 2 Jet.

[Helios]

So it was red that you were advocating holding back YP against? I remember a discussion about holding him back until you could get max value.

[Valdarith]

Holding back YP is the worst thing you can do against Esper. You need to force the Verdict and YP is much less effective late game when Jace is resolved. Play YP and hold burn for Phoenix buybacks and late game reach.

[zemanjaski]

You hold him back when there is a lot of value in generating 1/1s. There isn't much value against wrath decks and you need to put them on a clock. Now, ill usually play an FFS first in most matchups because I want time to draw into burn and set up advantageous positions for YP + burn, but that's contextual on greater needs of the matchup ~ sometimes you don't have time to fiddle with yourself and generate incremental value.

On the other hand, incremental value is good vs. Mono B and RDW so sometimes you can wait; sometimes you need an attacker or blocker; strategy has to be fluid to adapt to the evolving needs of a conflict.

This is precisely why I don't like writing primers anymore, people take my thoughts as absolutes and apply them too rigidly. Playing the YP turn 2 vs. Esper should obviously be the correct play. Adding 2 to your clock now in unarguably better than waiting to try and make a 1/1 later.

[Keftenk]

Is PyroRed positioned any better vs Junk? I still have the most impossible time beating it with PyroBoros ;\ Not that it ever changed for the better..

[zemanjaski]

Junk isn't a deck online so I don't know for certain but in theory it should be ~ a bit more explosive and FFS is good against them. There somewhere in between Dega and BW (both good matchups) but they also have Caryatid, who is a tough SOB.

[Keftenk]

Yea, I rarely see it online. Very rare actually, but I just got smoked by it just a few minutes ago playing PyroBoros, so I became curious.