[Primer] Boros Burn

[Tyrael]

Fiendslayer should be really trivial game 2 between charm, reckoner, chain. I don't understand.

The guy had ratchet bomb to kill my chains...

[Elricity]

I'd rather have Rakdos Cackler main honestly. 2 ass, Doom Blade and Ultimate Price immunity, better vs R/x in game one.

4 cackler main is requirement. I ended up cutting 2 peak and two wear for four satyrs, 2 main siding yp

Tyrael, Boros charm to prevent it or just burning them for finish. If it was azorious control, it is really hard

[Tyrael]

Satyr might be the thing we need to push this thing to the next level, good thinking Elricity

Well, the guy was running his special U/W/G brew. His mainboard was standard good old U/W stuff (which I completely stomped G1) but his sideboard was just full of lifegain: Archangel of Thune, Centaur Healer, Fiendslayer Paladin and also Ratchet Bomb. G2 and G3 were awful beyond belief. He ended up winning the event, going 5-0. There were three other burn decks present which all folded really hard to his post-sb plan.

I also lost to an Orzhov player with the Paladin in his sb, turns out he was running Ratchet Bomb MB as a means of countering chained. Yeah. (technically I died to Whip but I digress)

edit: Hot news!

Darin Minard's Mostly Red Boros Burn
Top 8 - Standard – Grand Prix Dallas Fort Worth 2013
[deck]Land
10 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

ncreatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

spells
4 Boros Charm
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Thighs
2 Chandra, Pyromaster


Sideboard
4 Assemble the Legion
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Spark Trooper[/deck]

SB is incomplete but I'm guessing it's 4 Toil // Trouble.

[agrevall]

It was 4 Toil // Trouble yes. He had a pretty rough time against the U/W deck.

[magicdownunder]

I like the Chandra, Pyromaster in the MD....

[TBuzzsaw]

Wow, that list is literally almost mine card for card.

[Narcasus]

played an 8 man with it, went 1-1. lost to red devotion. without anger, you have no outs to a nut draw. other than that,i felt like i had him besides such explosive starts like 3 BTE into nykthos into mogis.

[Elricity]

I actually lost twice to red devotion in side events, didn't see my life gain and couldn't stabilize . Never needed anger though as I was able to keep up.

I like his idea, I'll try it out. I want to take a day to go over my notes. I sucked at all the side events with some single misplays that cost me matches.

Peak eruption was win more. A burn spell to swap with skullcracks but it only turned around one game when locking out someone's red.

[Tyrael]

So Elricity, didn't you say something like : 'Show me a decklist whose game plan isn't to put Chandra on a Tiajuana street corner' before?

[LP, of the Fires]

It was 4 Toil // Trouble yes. He had a pretty rough time against the U/W deck.

I actually used to play with Darin when I was still living in Oklahoma and he's a very good player, but he misplayed against Huey both games and should have won game 1 at least. I don't remember exactly what it was game 1, but it involved sequencing in the first 3/4 turns I believe with a YP or a Phoenix. . Huey played brilliantly in the tourney, but he was also helped out by his opponents playing badly.

[Tyrael]

Agreed, LP

Vs. U/W is definitely an uphill battle (just watched the quarterfinal, watching all his stuff getting counterspelled was brutal)

[Valdarith]

That's odd. I would expect U/W to be a very favorable matchup. I didn't think they ran many counters.

[Tyrael]

The highest (2nd) ranking U/W player, William Jensen was running this:

[deck]lands
8 Plains
8 Island
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Mutavault

spells
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Divination
4 Dissolve
4 Azorius Charm
2 Quicken
2 Syncopate

Enchants, artifacts & PW's
4 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Elixir of Immortality

sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Last Breath
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Gainsay
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Blind Obedience
2 Negate
[/deck]

So yes, ouch

[TBuzzsaw]

I'm starting to think if I want to replace my Cacklers in the SB for the Assembles. They're both great against control, and if UW Control does take off Assemble does seem like the better choice.

[Tyrael]

Jace says nay

[Elricity]

So Elricity, didn't you say something like : 'Show me a decklist whose game plan isn't to put Chandra on a Tiajuana street corner' before?

Yeah, still curious about that. I suspect he hopes to hide her behind Phoenix or tokens. I'm curious about testing it. I'll go through my notes and see how much the one drops I used helped. I suspect not enough since I lost early and he didn't.

Assemble is verdict proof so if you can burn jace off the table, it is possible.

[Purp]

I actually lost twice to red devotion in side events, didn't see my life gain and couldn't stabilize . Never needed anger though as I was able to keep up.

If you had Anger, you wouldn't of need the lifegain

[Tyrael]

Problem is that Anger and YP$ are both competing for slots in the same matchups and they don't get along well...

[Purp]

I would argue that Anger is better verse Rx/Gx than YP$.

[Tyrael]

I was under the impression that we were running YP$ to improve our matchups vs those decks specifically

Maybe I have been sideboarding wrong this whole time

[Elricity]

I actually lost twice to red devotion in side events, didn't see my life gain and couldn't stabilize . Never needed anger though as I was able to keep up.

If you had Anger, you wouldn't of need the lifegain

Sure, 2 for 1's at sorcery speed are what really makes the difference vs mono red. Particularly since you don't actually want to play YP, Reckoner, or Phoenix for card advantage. What was I thinking?

Mostly what cost me was some early misplays such as scrying down
both a trooper and warleader when I was at 3 lands. I should have kept the helix on top but I got greedy for land 4 and expected to find another. I had two boros charms in hand so I felt kind of desperate to YP + charm but eventually i did find my lands. Later game I was at 2 and started off holding back phoenix on an empty board since he still had 6 haste creatures left. I played got 2 phoenixes so I swung with one, he played a creature...and...i attacked anyway. Chains my blocker to kill me. Magma jet was my next draw. Durp.

I made some pretty bad misplays like that throughout. Running anger was not one of them. YP >> anger vs r/x, particularly when you're running boros charms for some very painful turnarounds. Board presence matters. G/x it is less good with nylea but it's still effective early game. And even then, anger is eh there too.

@ LP, turn 4 he plays YP instead of phoenix probably because the other guy was representing Syncopate. I would have held both and made u/w tap out to deal
with the tokens somehow since 2 1/1's is lethal pretty quick. Only thing I can think of. Nope, kept watching, he helixes at end of u/w's turn with 6 lands untapped. Oye.

[Tyrael]

Might try running my list without Angers

lacking a Chandra but I'll just run an extra Mutavault or something

By the way, is anyone interested in turning this into a primer? Starting tomorrow I might be able to do it myself (if Helios approves) if nobody else feels they are up to the task.

[Tyrael]

Will try to trade for a 2nd Chandra this friday (30 euros argh) so I can run Minard's list with a few small tweaks

[deck]Land (23)
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mutavault

Monsters (8)
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (27)
4 Boros Charm
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

Thighs (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Spark Trooper
4 Toil // Trouble
2 Assemble The Legion[/deck]

Sideboard is still volatile but I feel like Last Breath is necessary so I don't die to Fiendslayer Paladin again. I'm unsure whether I really want Anger since it proved to be rather weak last time when dropping it two times vs. G/R and it did not save me from getting overrun. How do you guys feel about FotF?

[TBuzzsaw]

I'm starting to think maybe side in Stormbreath for UW? They have virtually no way to remove it outside of Verdict and Elspeth (which sets her down to +1). Ratchet Bomb takes too long for them.

[GodzillaAteMe]

Hey all! First time poster, long time lurker. Just wanted to say I actually play at the shop that Darin plays/works at, so I'm going to see if I can pick his brain a bit on his card choices and what he would change. May play a modified version of his list tonight.

[Purp]

Hey all! First time poster, long time lurker. Just wanted to say I actually play at the shop that Darin plays/works at, so I'm going to see if I can pick his brain a bit on his card choices and what he would change. May play a modified version of his list tonight.

Sweet man! Let us know what he says. You should try to get him to join us on here, we have a lot of players willing to test and perfect his list even further!

[Midnight_v]

This is what I'm on right now. I'm likely a little behind. Having played this deck for a while now... I really want to have a better game vs esper and I've shored up a lot of what was bad against other decks. Yes, merciless eviction is a card that I often side in, and yes Spark Trooper is a card that I have never sided in, so I guess I'm a bit behind.

Chandra seems so good, but... the matchups where she'd be best seem to be the matchups where she's most vulnerable.
I guess there's not a lot of choice there, we don't get card draw any other way, but readying the modern and legacy burn primers they're all about "maximizing your draw" I really want to try without shock but can't take it out because you know...
reasons.
I'm thinking of taking out spark trooper and adding Annihilating Fire, I guess i"m just kinda durdling with this deck till the next set to see if we get a better burn spell.

[
deck]9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos Cackler
1 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Charm
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Toil
4 Shock

SB: 2 Anger of the Gods
SB: 4 Boros Reckoner
SB: 2 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 2 Spark Trooper
SB: 2 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Toil
SB: 1 Merciless Eviction
[/deck]

[Purp]

CVM Posted about the deck, I like his proposed SB

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27 ... iting.html

[Tyrael]

I don't

he hasn't tested it yet either so eh

In other news: I have tested several cards for the U/W matchup and 2 Glare of Heresy seems like an incredibly strong SB against them. Hits Archangel of Thune, Detention Sphere, Fiendslayer Paladin and more importantly, gets rid of their main win con: Elspeth.

Taking out the Spark Troopers seems like a horribe idea, the life swing has saved my ass so many times already I can't imagine ever taking it out. Purp, I'd be interested to see some results if you feel like/have time to test it out though, could be that I'm totally wrong .

Purp, do you share his feelings on YP$ too?

[Elricity]

He didn't test the other build either. That's what's annoying me about these reviews.

Glare's ok if your meta is heavy white. I don't think it's necessary though. Darin could have won those games in Dallas but it's possible he played poorly because he never drew a skullcrack? Not sure.

I played with it some last night and initially, I like having multiple assembles I can draw. 4 might be too many but I do like the card. His complaint about it being slow seems confusing. Apparently he thinks you bring it in vs agro?

I find it cute that he complains about YP being bad against spot removal when that is entirely what it is good against. He must have forgot he had 1-2 mana spells in his deck, including one that says "indestructible" on the card.

[TBuzzsaw]

Taking out the Spark Troopers seems like a horribe idea, the life swing has saved my ass so many times already I can't imagine ever taking it out. Purp, I'd be interested to see some results if you feel like/have time to test it out though, could be that I'm totally wrong .

This. Sparky saved my ass so many times against aggro.

[Tyrael]

I played with it some last night and initially, I like having multiple assembles I can draw. 4 might be too many but I do like the card. His complaint about it being slow seems confusing. Apparently he thinks you bring it in vs agro?

Glare's ok if your meta is heavy white. I don't think it's necessary though. Darin could have won those games in Dallas but it's possible he played poorly because he never drew a skullcrack? Not sure.

Nah I'm just paranoid about losing to 2 matches because the opponent boarded in Fiendslayer Paladin and I couldn't deal with it. Ugh.

So, would 3 Assemble The Legion in the SB make sense? Haven't tested the card yet but I ordered them since I am willing to try them out as they offer us a real 'win con'
in the hard matchups (I will be running 2 for now as that's what I ordered).

By the way, El, hows the evaluation of the one drops going? My initial testing has proven it to be better for me personally since most of my meta consists of devotion decks anyway.

[Aodh]

Just go nuts with no-permanent burn:

[deck]Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence

Not Lands

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Dreadbore
4 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Toil // Trouble
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Rakdos's Return

Sideboard
4 Spark Trooper
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Toil // Trouble
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Der lolz.

[Elricity]

By the way, El, hows the evaluation of the one drops going? My initial testing has proven it to be better for me personally since most of my meta consists of devotion decks anyway.

I had one game in 24 matches at Dallas where the one drops were better than having extra shocks to throw at my opponent's face. I didn't check to see if my opponent was mana screwed that game. Since the one drops can't effectively block, it's the only relevant way of evaluating the one drop creatures.

After going through my notes, one drops aren't where you want to be if you don't have
redundant threats higher up the curve. Otherwise, it eats a removal, does no damage, and you're back to your original gameplan of spells. And then your one drops are horrible topdecks where even shock is live. I can get you the numbers when I get home, keeping notes of what was causing damage/lifegain was extremely valuable in showing me what cards were effective.

About fiendslayer paladin, it's annoying but you can't devote your entire deck to beating it. Boros charm, boros reckoner, chained to the rocks, and in your case at least, anger of the gods all kill the card. That is plenty of cards.

This isn't the right place for last breath. Creature decks can make up the lifegain. You can't.

Aodh, the deck can't afford to be that slow with that many tap lands. You need to cast spells early, whether it's vs agro to survive or vs control to clear them before they get to their win condition. It's amusing though.

[Aodh]

I'll test it before FNM and see. Seems so sick.

[Tyrael]

I think it would be safe to say that at this point Minard's list can serve as the 'base' Boros Burn list, no?

Yeah, LB is definitely bad in this deck, and Glare of Heresy might be overkill. If U/W becomes really popular it might be worthy of a spot in the SB though.

I'm not going to board Angers at all this friday and see how it goes(going full Elricity mode! ). It might actually be fine with 4 YP$ and Chandra main, we'll see.

I think no 1-drops will become standard for burn now, as cards like Celestial Flare and Azorius Charm completely screw you over vs control anyway. Mutavaults: same issue really.

[Elricity]

Both Rakdos Return and Trouble MD seem to be at odds with each other. I do love me some Rakdos return though it's much slower than all the other burn here since you aren't ramping which is what makes it powerful.

Let us know though. Not having temple of malice is painful though. I think you're a bit overkill on the dual lands. 12 white and 12 black is plenty of lands so the rakdos gates and godless shrines could be mountains. Right now you only have 16 red sources which is too little for phoenix on curve. Hero's downfall is just a bit much on the planeswalker hate.

Tyrael, I'm going on that assumption, yes. Z's doing something similar although he's still commited to no MB Chandra. I still don't disagree with him on that but dropping out the weaker creatures for more removal and going back to the fullplay set of YP for defense was the other option I suggested if people wanted to play with her in this deck.

[Tyrael]

Both Rakdos Return and Trouble MD seem to be at odds with each other. I do love me some Rakdos return though it's much slower than all the other burn here since you aren't ramping which is what makes it powerful.

Let us know though. Not having temple of malice is painful though. I think you're a bit overkill on the dual lands. 12 white and 12 black is plenty of lands so the rakdos gates and godless shrines could be mountains. Right now you only have 16 red sources which is too little for phoenix on curve. Hero's downfall is just a bit much on the planeswalker hate.

Tyrael, I'm going on that assumption, yes. Z's doing something similar although he's still commited to no MB Chandra. I still don't disagree with him on that but dropping out the weaker
creatures for more removal and going back to the fullplay set of YP for defense was the other option I suggested if people wanted to play with her in this deck.

Oh yeah man that mana base hurts my eyes. My god.

El, idk if she's worth maindecking but man the plays, THE PLAYS (seriously she's proven to be a monster vs everything but aggro in my initial tests). Oh yeah and killing people with her ultimate is the most satisfying thing I've ever done in this game.

[Elricity]

I agree, her abilities are quite helpful for this deck if she's allowed to be untouched.

[Helios]

I agree, her abilities are quite helpful for this deck if she's allowed to be untouched.

Giggity.