Theros Pantheon Mafia - Game Over - Mafia Victory

[zemanjaski]

Why are you asking questions I've already answered? Again, I don't have much confidence in reading with you as the nature of our last game means I have no useful experience to draw on; you'll note I've been very happily employing my usual approach to other players where I feel I can get results

Here are my issues with you right now:
- you're basically asking me to clear you. Sure, it reads as if you're irrelevant which way I go, but it doesn't serve Town to distract me from hunting actual Scum if you're Town; I've not seen you adopt a mindset of forming a Town voting block via POE previously, though it did come up in our last game I suppose; but even then right now it wouldn't be effective, so any such effort is extremelt forced.
- you've also basically suggested that I should be confident in reading you (this in a game where you're acting pretty Townish previously); so any read I should give is 'Town'.
When I explain reasons why I'm unwilling to make a read, you've basically tried to boost my confidence "you were totally right on day 1, believe in yourself!" To get me to do so. I can't see a Town motivation for doing this. If you're Town, you don't care what conclusions I reach, only that I show a Town-mibdset in my analytical process; that's sufficient for you to start narrowing your field of suspects. Instead your concern seems very much to be with getting clear.
- there's no reason to force engagement with me. We've got multiple posters who've promised content soon and I've already expressed an interest with dislike for rednihilist and Hamfactorial. Getting me to make substantive assessment of you is just a distraction. For reasons, explained, that doesn't serve Town.
- trying to make it seem like we successfully caught you in DTR is just bullshit. In that game you told us at the time you were being scummy to fish for info, to exploit your unlynchable miller role to Town advantage.
We were never going to put you on unlynchable godfather, so it's an entirely easy situation for you to exploit there; and you're trying to exploit it now by telling me you're easy to read! What the hell? Thing is, you'd have known in DTR that the lunch would fail and that we'd 99% believe your fake claim, so you could afford to act ultra scummy Day 1 to get Town-cred and then mislead us.

Aside. I have nfi what Suga was thinking.

Making a meta read on me when I've been day killed on Day 1 as Town by two Town scrubs for asking too many questions is kinda funny. It's like you're telling me how I ought to play.

RE: Wraith; your logic for defending him seemed incredibly flawed if we don't assume that he's just awful. Getting the role name wrong is awkward, but he didn't state the correct ability; that he doesn't research and basically claimed the only PR he'd seen in his last came are cause for immense suspicion. On balance, I'm concluding that yeah, he's just awful; but the way you made
a defence seemed wilfully ignorant or at least dismissive of Wraith as a person and what you would know about him from the last game. It doesn't sit well with me.

This is what you want right?

Vote rcwraspy

[rcwraspy]

Why are you asking questions I've already answered?

More than one person's been caught answering the same question different ways before. It's always possible again. It's fine if you don't have a read on me, but it does strike me as odd since my experience with you so far is that you develop reads very quickly. So it was worth questioning. It certainly doesn't mean you HAVE to develop quick reads. Just that it's been my observation.

- you're basically asking me to clear you. Sure, it reads as if you're irrelevant which way I go, but it doesn't serve Town to distract me from hunting actual Scum if you're Town; I've not seen you adopt a mindset of forming a Town voting block via POE previously, though it did
come up in our last game I suppose; but even then right now it wouldn't be effective, so any such effort is extremelt forced.

Not asking you to clear me at all. Sure, being cleared sounds nice I suppose, but that's also night kill bait right there. No thanks. I'm not trying to distract you from hunting scum. I'm trying to clear YOU! Not sure why that's forced during a stall in which we're the only ones posting.

- you've also basically suggested that I should be confident in reading you (this in a game where you're acting pretty Townish previously); so any read I should give is 'Town'. When I explain reasons why I'm unwilling to make a read, you've basically tried to boost my confidence "you were totally right on day 1, believe in yourself!" To get me to do so. I can't see a Town motivation for doing this. If you're Town, you don't care what conclusions I reach, only that I show a Town-mibdset in my analytical process; that's sufficient for
you to start narrowing your field of suspects. Instead your concern seems very much to be with getting clear.

It's an attempt to tease information from you so I can develop my own read on you. You mentioned something about me, I asked you about it to get down to YOUR thought process, not to try to clear myself.

- there's no reason to force engagement with me. We've got multiple posters who've promised content soon and I've already expressed an interest with dislike for rednihilist and Hamfactorial. Getting me to make substantive assessment of you is just a distraction. For reasons, explained, that doesn't serve Town.

If it doesn't serve town, how does it serve scum? How does giving people more to read on BOTH of us not serve town? Sure, others have promised content, but where is it? Should we just sit idle until it comes out (if it ever does)?

- trying to make it seem like we successfully caught you in DTR is just bullshit. In
that game you told us at the time you were being scummy to fish for info, to exploit your unlynchable miller role to Town advantage. We were never going to put you on unlynchable godfather, so it's an entirely easy situation for you to exploit there; and you're trying to exploit it now by telling me you're easy to read! What the hell? Thing is, you'd have known in DTR that the lunch would fail and that we'd 99% believe your fake claim, so you could afford to act ultra scummy Day 1 to get Town-cred and then mislead us.

Aside. I have nfi what Suga was thinking.

Me telling you in DTR Mafia that I was purposefully acting scummy was the lie. I wasn't trying to act scummy. You caught me, got me to claim, and lynched me. Then I said I did it all on purpose as a cover up. Sure, easy position for me given how things ended up, but that's not the point. And again, I'm not trying to tell you I'm easy to read. This is what I'm saying:
1. I've observed that Zem develops reads quickly
n2. I've posted a lot
3. Zem hasn't developed a read on me yet
4. I wonder why that is

Making a meta read on me when I've been day killed on Day 1 as Town by two Town scrubs for asking too many questions is kinda funny. It's like you're telling me how I ought to play.

Why the hell would I tell anybody how to play? That seems like a huge stretch.

RE: Wraith; your logic for defending him seemed incredibly flawed if we don't assume that he's just awful. Getting the role name wrong is awkward, but he didn't state the correct ability; that he doesn't research and basically claimed the only PR he'd seen in his last came are cause for immense suspicion. On balance, I'm concluding that yeah, he's just awful; but the way you made a defence seemed wilfully ignorant or at least dismissive of Wraith as a person and what you would know about him from the last game. It doesn't sit well with me.

I've specifically tried to avoid saying
anything about Wraith on a personal level. I don't know him at all, and he seems like a good guy from the clan thread. Since I'm obviously not seeing the same thing the rest of you are, can you highlight for me (via quote would prob be easiest) where he stated the wrong ability? I didn't see that at all. What I saw was the same thing stated in 2 different ways, both of which could have been taken almost directly from the Mafia Scum wiki's definition of town roleblocker.

This is what you want right?

Vote rcwraspy

Not what I was after, but whatevs.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm not re-reading my posts asking myself "does this sound town" or "what's the town mindset here?" It seems like that's what you're expecting from every post. I'm just posting what I'm thinking as I'm thinking it, and trying to work with what I've got. Right now all I've got is 11 pages and 1 other active user.

[zemanjaski]

Here you go (Post 148):

What the hell my laptop keeps skipping typing and stupid auto correcting words.

I just said earlier that my ability is Rolestopper. My spear stops night kills. What else do you want?

Rest when I have a bit more time later today.

[rcwraspy]

Here you go (Post 148):

What the hell my laptop keeps skipping typing and stupid auto correcting words.

I just said earlier that my ability is Rolestopper. My spear stops night kills. What else do you want?

Rest when I have a bit more time later today.

From the Mafia Wiki. This is the entire write-up of town roleblocker (emphasis mine). Please let me know how what Wraith said differs from the very first sentence, except that Wraith added flavor to it.

Town
Generally, Roleblockers
are intended to try to stop the Night-kill, or stop scum power roles in situations where they are known. In practice, Roleblockers are more likely to stop Town power roles from working early on, but as the game goes on Roleblockers become much more powerful. In particular, when there is one Mafioso left Roleblockers can be used to confirm players - if the Mafia's kill goes through, whoever was blocked that Night isn't the last Mafioso. Inversely, if a Roleblocker blocks someone and the Mafia's kill disappears, there is a decent chance that the Roleblocker blocked the scum who was performing the kill (though this is not necessarily the case, given that other power roles may have had a hand in it, or the scum decided to not kill anyone as a framing gambit). In summary, Town Roleblockers are almost liabilities early on but become much stronger if they survive to lategame, so they have net positive value for Town.

[Iso]

Okay, okay, tomorrow is my day off; promise I'll have time to dedicate to the game then.

[DroppinSuga]

Too be fair to me RE: rcwraspy

I've never seen a townie be unlynchable so I figured once he came up unlynchable the SK or the vig (who wasted his shot on zem) would have taken care of rcw. Oh well, lessons learned and it's just a game anyways. Some of you guys take this shit super serious.

Back to this game:

I'm actually ok with a lynch on rcw, I haven't liked his play in this game but I wasn't sure if it was me being jaded from DTR.

[RedNihilist]

RE raspy: I actually considered him leaning town before his stunt in putting Wraith at L-1, even though I can believe his motives.
At the same time I fear that Z's read on him might be too "tainted" by their recent game on DTR.

Now: did anybody hear recently from imopen2?

[rcwraspy]

RE raspy: I actually considered him leaning town before his stunt in putting Wraith at L-1, even though I can believe his motives.

That wasn't a stunt. I legitimately voted Wraith thinking he was the best scum target at the time, and I knew I put him at L-1. Then I had doubts and imopen2 caught my attention with some scummy posts.

The whole thing about analyzing Wraith's wagon was just something that dawned on me later. Putting him at L-1 wasn't intended to bring that about, if that's what you're referring to.

[zemanjaski]

Unvote rcwraspy, vote DroppinSuga

[RedNihilist]

RE raspy: I actually considered him leaning town before his stunt in putting Wraith at L-1, even though I can believe his motives.

That wasn't a stunt. I legitimately voted Wraith thinking he was the best scum target at the time, and I knew I put him at L-1. Then I had doubts and imopen2 caught my attention with some scummy posts.

The whole thing about analyzing Wraith's wagon was just something that dawned on me later. Putting him at L-1 wasn't intended to bring that about, if that's what you're referring to.

Oh, ok.
I read your move like some kind of bet.
nBetter get some sleep.

[zemanjaski]

Town
1. zemanjaski
7. Captain Murphy
11. rezombad
12. rcwraspy
6. InflatablePie (r. Wraith223)

Null
10. WitchHunt
13. Iso
8. Void
3. imopen2

Scum
5. RedNihilist
9. hamfactorial
2. TubeHunter
4. DroppinSuga

To do list:
- answer raspy's questions
- read rednihilist's linked game
- bully lurkers
- bait rezombad

Might not get through all of that today, or in that order.

[InflatablePie]

rez town
Witch town
Tube town
z town
Void town
Ham town
Iso town
imopen null
Suga null
Red scummy
rcw scummy
murphy scummy

hmm.

unvote
vote rcw

[zemanjaski]

Do you have rez as 9 or 10 on the butthurt scale? That's the real question.

Played much with Void or Iso before?

[imopen2]

I'm alive, just spending most of my free time arguing with my GF. It's been good times.

I felt Red was scum earlier but I don't remember why.

I'm really questioning how Pie has so many town reads when I have very few. Are we reading the same game? Some analysis would be nice also instead of just naked reads.

I'd like to see that Rez post at some point...

I thought ham was going to post more this game. I'd like to see his opinion on some of this stuff.

Night night

[zemanjaski]

To be fair, the only reason I want a post from Rez is to make fun of him again, it'll be as useful as everything else he has posted.

[Captain Murphy]

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

[rezombad]

Sorry, been busy with some shit irl and I'm about to go to bed.

did some of a read through, I support a suga lynch and will case tomorrow.

[zemanjaski]

No need:
- only posted real content early when it's easy and won't attract attention
- gets on wraith wagon early but doesn't actually go after wraith
- expresses an interest in other targets but never builds a case
- promises an analytical post but doesn't provide
- jumps on my vote for raspy without giving reasons. Ckearky hadn't read my case, which was deliberately bad.

SCUM

[Captain Murphy]

No need:
- only posted real content early when it's easy and won't attract attention
- gets on wraith wagon early but doesn't actually go after wraith
- expresses an interest in other targets but never builds a case
- promises an analytical post but doesn't provide
- jumps on my vote for raspy without giving reasons. Ckearky hadn't read my case, which was deliberately bad.

SCUM

This +1

I still don't like that pie hasn't done some kind of PBPA, but I'll put it on the backburner for a little bit of droppin lynch action

[Stardust]

Official Votecount!

rezombad (Ephara) (1): RedNihilist
zemanjaski (Iroas) (1): rezombad
InflatablePie (Heliod) (4): TubeHunter, Iso, Void, hamfactorial (L-3)
RedNihilist (Athreos) (1): imopen2
imopen2 (Erebos) (1): rcwraspy
DroppinSuga (Phenax) (2): zemanjaski, Captain Murphy
rcwraspy (Purphoros) (1): InflatablePie


Not voting: WitchHunt, DroppinSuga

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.


hamfactorial has been prodded.

[imopen2]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

[hamfactorial]

Unvote

Going to read back the last two pages. I didn't see anything weird about Suga's post while skimming from my phone last night.

[Captain Murphy]

Looking back at all his posts its a fairly obvious fly under the radar

[Captain Murphy]

First he is happy with lynching wraith, then:

unvote

I honestly don't think Wraith is scum. He's just a little "different".

I honestly think lynching Wraith is a bad move. Regardless of whether he plays mafia "the right way", I still feel like he's town and lynching a townie is never a good idea.

I will add right now that I'm not comfortable lynching
WraithPie. I have to bring my son to a doctors appointment 2 hours away today so I won't be on until this evening. I will post more when I return.

Too be fair to me RE: rcwraspy

I've never seen a townie be unlynchable so I figured once he came up unlynchable the SK or the vig (who wasted his shot on zem) would have taken care of rcw. Oh well, lessons learned and it's just a game anyways. Some of you guys take this shit super serious.

Back to this game:

I'm actually ok with a lynch on rcw, I haven't liked his play in this game but I wasn't sure if it was me being jaded from DTR.

[hamfactorial]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin[/
quote]

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

[rcwraspy]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

It's because of how quickly he jumped on the idea of lynching me right after Z and I mildly went at it and Z voted me. I read Z's vote primarily as a vote to gauge my reaction and see if anybody else would react, and I read Suga as falling for that bait.

Also, Murphy's quotes of Suga show him saying "honestly" a lot, which I was told in a previous game is a slight scum tell. Might not be a big deal, but worth mentioning.

unvote

vote: DroppinSuga

I still think imopen2 could be scum, but I don't see that wagon moving and if we get a lynch the flip will tell us some
things.

[rcwraspy]

I'm actually ok with a lynch on rcw, I haven't liked his play in this game but I wasn't sure if it was me being jaded from DTR.

I think we've got 4 votes on you now Suga. Can you tell us exactly what you haven't liked about my play this game? You should probably also respond to Zem's post summarizing your play and Murphy's quotes of you.

[Captain Murphy]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

Try and find some content or real scum hunting in his posts

[hamfactorial]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly
posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

Try and find some content or real scum hunting in his posts

I couldn't find anything worthwhile, but you seemed to see something else that wasn't apparent to me.

Vote DroppinSuga

[DroppinSuga]

I am town and my power allows me to take a quote from the game and I'm told whether it's true or a lie.

[DroppinSuga]

To be honest, I've just lost interest in the game with all of the flailing from wraith and it's day one.

[Stardust]

Official Votecount!

rezombad (Ephara) (1): RedNihilist
zemanjaski (Iroas) (1): rezombad
InflatablePie (Heliod) (3): TubeHunter, Iso, Void
DroppinSuga (Phenax) (5): zemanjaski, Captain Murphy, imopen2, rcwraspy, hamfactorial (L-2)
rcwraspy (Purphoros) (1): InflatablePie


Not voting: WitchHunt, DroppinSuga

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

[imopen2]

That's a really odd ability...

Iso? Murphy? Void? Can an experienced player give any insight into whether this could be a legit claim?

[DroppinSuga]

I've seen it used once before in a game from HCRealms. It makes sense with the flavor of my character though.

[hamfactorial]

That's a pretty sweet ability, when can you use it?

[DroppinSuga]

I can use it once per night phase. I'm still unclear of the exact way it works, that was a question for Dusty if I make it to Night 1.

[DroppinSuga]

Actually, it's time to chat Ham. You blatantly say that you see nothing wrong with my posts, yet you vote me anyways? That seems a bit scummy to me. You've also flown under the radar this game.

vote hamfactorial

[rcwraspy]

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

Try and find some content or real scum hunting in his posts

I couldn't find anything worthwhile, but you seemed to see something else that wasn't apparent to me.

Vote DroppinSuga

Why do you feel comfortable putting
him to L-2 if you can't find anything worth voting him for on you own?

[rcwraspy]

unvote

[DroppinSuga]

I know there's scum on my train. Zem is a hard read and I think his intentions are pure this game. I feel that Captain and Ham are the strongest candidates. Captain is trying to make a case on me because of my posts which have no hint of scuminess. Ham is sheeping the wagon and I think some pressure on him will give us info that will be useful going forward.