[Primer] Boros Burn

[Lightning_Dolt]

I actually think MJ is really overrated.

[Rhyno]

Purp did just win states... lol

SCG events are terrible and don't count remember?

[dauntless268]

...and MJ also won this or the other tourney I suppose.

Can we now stop this useless debate, please? All you guys are (compared to my level) extremely strong players and I for my part find it fascinating how the deck can win with cards so different as YP and Eidolon.

Wish we could move forward from there and and have fun...

[magicdownunder]

...and MJ also won this or the other tourney I suppose.

Can we now stop this useless debate, please? All you guys are (compared to my level) extremely strong players and I for my part find it fascinating how the deck can win with cards so different as YP and Eidolon.

Wish we could move forward from there and and have fun...

Your actually MUCH better then you give yourself credit for - strong placing during the Standard Online Champs and a multiple finishes in record DEs (you may even have more finishes in non-recorded DEs for all we know).

IMO its actually a
really good thing that this thread can support multiple ideas (even if we don't agree with them, its important to respect results or sound reasoning) I actually think this is a huge step forward compared with pre-JOU "we"/"hivemind" mentality that was going on in this thread.

[Khaospawn]

I think at this point the whole Eidolon vs YP$ debate comes down to playstyle. There is no correct answer as to what is the best choice. Both cards are good in their own way.

I agree with MDU that these discussions are pretty healthy. Nothing pissed me off more in the last couple of months than reading these "what are 'we' doing about this" hivemind posts that went nowhere and ultimately defaulted to whatever list James played in a DE the day before.

I think no matter what 2 drop anyone decides to play, be it Eidolon or Pyromancer, the deck is still strong and malleable enough to be changed to suit anyone's playstyle. Personally, I wish I could go back to playing Ash Zealot but I know in my heart of hearts that she isn't what my deck needs at the moment. I'm on the Eidolon train for the time being, but if my local meta switches up again, I'll be back on the YP$ plan.

[Tyrael]

I think at this point the whole Eidolon vs YP$ debate comes down to playstyle. There is no correct answer as to what is the best choice.

I have a question for you guys. Would you take out Eidolon vs. Jund Monsters games 2/3 (if you were to play it MB)? A jund monsters opponent told me I should have kept them in to 'counter' his removal spells (dreadbore and abrupt decay) but I'm still unsure whether he was right.

[Valdarith]

As a Monsters player myself I'd be overjoyed to discover my opponent playing postboard Eidolon. My top heavy deck thanks you.

[Tyrael]

That's what I thought, thanks a bunch Vald (I did take them out btw but it didn't matter because the matchup is basically a bye for them anyway, I was playing AIR)

[Khaospawn]

I think at this point the whole Eidolon vs YP$ debate comes down to playstyle. There is no correct answer as to what is the best choice.

I have a question for you guys. Would you take out Eidolon vs. Jund Monsters games 2/3 (if you were to play it MB)? A jund monsters opponent told me I should have kept them in to 'counter' his removal spells (dreadbore and abrupt decay) but I'm still unsure whether he was right.

I'd absolutely take Eidolon out for games 2 & 3. I bring in 3 Satyr Firedancer, 1 Chains, 2 Mortars, Spark Trooper, and Blind Obedience .

[HK1997]

Playing 4 of YP MD and Mizziums + Eidolon in the side seems to run well for me in SE's today. 3-0 3-0 2-1 2-1
Could have clinched an additional first place if I hadnt misplayed (LS to the face, instead of the last creature, trying to close out in 2 turns). Thought the chances of him drawing two bestow creatures in a row were slim (MonoB Aggro)
Lot's and lot's of aggro, with monoG being nr.1, having faced 5 different players running some form of it. RDW, Red devotion, Mono B devotion and White wheenies were also very present. Luckily only one Naya midrange player, who lost to bad draws. Easy QP's today for anyone that wants to cash in on the hourly meta

I am currently not siding in Eidolon of great revels on the draw in the mirror matchup and sometimes not even on the play. My experience has been that even when the opponent is ahead
and plays an eidolon, it can work heavily to my advantage if I have one or multiple Helix's. Could be that current red mages dont pilot him all too well in the mirror, or maybe he is just a liability. I've lost one or two games to my own Eidolon, thinking I was ahead, when the perfect answer to eidolon is Searing blood to put you behind again. The small variance is enough for me to not want to play them. YP performs better here because the EV of it simply dependant on how patiently you are allowed to play him. I'd rather have a token left on board and take 3, instead of taking 3 and dealing 2.

The last game that won the mirror had him playing an eidolon while ahead, but tapping out, leaving me open to WLH, taking the lead and holding up scullcrack with an empty board, except for his eidolon. Couple of turns later I'm at 8, he is at 8 with 6 untapped mana, untap - skullcrack, he responds with WLH, Skullcrack back and a magma jet. I'm at 2, he cant' respond with his killing spell because his own
eidolon will kill him. I had been saving and scrying the skullcracks for just this klling blow. Also, eidolong makes for a terrible top deck in an aggro matchup or in the mirror as well. You never know if you are ahead or behind when it goes long enough to get into top decking mode.

Also, YPs definitely stay in, no matter what. In one white wheenie game he was able to dump 5 1 drops by turn three and on the play. drawing a YP let me win a game that would have been a loss, had that YP been an eidolon. YP can get you out of a lot of messy situations, when you havent dropped too low in life yet AND close out games. Eidolon has almost no situation where it will get you out of a bad draw.

That being said, Eidolon still does a ton of work for me in other aggro matchups that dont run searing blood and I never side it in against midrange (to respond to that "advice" that was given earlier).

[BiddingMaster]

this is my new test deck. I really liked the deck I played at the scg open and this is the same deck with a tweaked sideboard. I think this sideboard plan helps out in the matchups where I was falling behind and just straight loosing because I was running eidolon. Any thoughts would be awsome guys and thanks for all the headbutting that forced me to test heavilly to create this list. If you dont mind Z, would you give your opinion of my sideboard and sideboard plan?
[deck]creatures
4 chandra's phoenix
4 eidolon of the great revel
4 young pyromancer

spells
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks
4 boros charm
4 warleaders helix
4 skullcrack
4 magma jet
4 lightning strike
2 searing blood

lands
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
2 boros guildgate
1 temple of malice
1 temple of silence
8 mountain
3 mutavault

sideboard
3 chandra
3 glare of heresy
2 chained to the rocks
4 mizzium mortars
3
shock[/deck]

junk/bw
-4 magma jet
-4 boros charm
3 mizzium mortars
3 chandra
2 chained to the rocks

mono blue
-4 skullcrack
-2 boros charm
4 mortars
2 chained to the rocks

bx devotion
-2 searing blood
-1 banishing light
-4 boros charm
+2 mortars
+3 chandra
2 chained to the rocks

control
-2 searing blood
-2 chained to the rocks
-2 warleaders helix
+3 chandra
+3 glare

jund/gr monsters
-2 searing blood
-4 skullcrack
4 mizzium mortars
2 chained to the rocks

gw/mono white aggro
-2 chains
-1 banishing light
-4 skullcrack
-4 boros charm
4 mortars
3 glare
3 chandra
3 shock

mono green/black aggro
-1 banishing light
-4 skullcrack
-4 boros charm
4 mortars
2 chains
3 chandra

rdw/rakdos
-1 banishing light
-1 chained to the rocks
-4 skullcrack
-4 boros charm
3 shock
3 chandra
4 mortars

mirror
-4 eidolon
-1 banishing light
-4 yp
2 chained to the rocks
2 glare
3 chandra
2 shock

[Lightning_Dolt]

I like it when we have a hive mind...

[zemanjaski]

I actually think MJ is really overrated.

Take it from me, MJ is a true master.

[Kaitscralt]

skype?

[zemanjaski]

Yup.

[zemanjaski]

I'm willing to stop bashing SCG events if people are willing to stop arguing for cards based on the results from those events.

[zemanjaski]

And you know, contribute and stuff.

[Kaitscralt]

by skype i meant get on skype

[zemanjaski]

I am on skype.

[Kaitscralt]

now you are

[Purp]

In 10 rounds of states I never had to play the Mana Confluence earlier than 3. Even when it was in my opener. YP$ forces you to SB into trying to play a grindier game, which is not where I want to be against BG Devo and Junk Control (sfd is SIGNIFICANTLY better in this matchup).

MJ piloted the deck terribly in every round of that video.

I've watched your stream, don't throw stones in glass houses.

ive streamed like 3 times and lags too much for my computer, misclicks for days. Mj is terrible with every deck he plays, he spends more time discussing why the deck is
bad vs discussing how he could of played better. Sure, MJ did well 6+ years ago, but until I see him with a reasonable paper result I will continue to think of him as a terrible player with an even more terrible personality.

Yp$ vs Eidolon are honestly the same card. In game 1, it doesn't matter what two drop you are playing, or even if you play a 2 drop on turn 2...we are favored to win G1 vs almost every deck. Postboard, I believe SFD to better vs Junk/Mono U(especially with less judges familiar) than YP$ is. I think they are both equal in aggro matchups and monsters(might give the edge to Yp$ for monsters). Maybe it's my playstyle that leads me to think this. No one is either more right or more wrong than the other person.

[Khaospawn]

YP$ is really good for juggling an early Desecration Demon and multiple Pack Rats versus Black Devotion. He's also better than Eidolon in the Monsters matchup.

My local meta is pretty janky and unpredictable, admittedly. There are the usual tier 1 decks, but predicting what any given player will be on at any given day is a total crapshoot. The players have learned to pack more removal and have also learned to kill YP$ on site (which is fair), so switching over to the Eidolon was akin to throwing a curveball at them.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm willing to stop bashing SCG events if people are willing to stop arguing for cards based on the results from those events.

To be fair, Purp and I have both won large events in the last week with Eidolon. We aren't just basing out conclusions on SCG.

[Lightning_Dolt]

When the deck dies off and my meta isn't half mirrors, I'll probably switch back to YP$ (or maybe even Ash Zealot). I still think YP$ is just miserable vs Jace decks.

[BrainsickHater]

In 10 rounds of states I never had to play the Mana Confluence earlier than 3. Even when it was in my opener. YP$ forces you to SB into trying to play a grindier game, which is not where I want to be against BG Devo and Junk Control (sfd is SIGNIFICANTLY better in this matchup).

MJ piloted the deck terribly in every round of that video.

I've watched your stream, don't throw stones in glass houses.

ive streamed
like 3 times and lags too much for my computer, misclicks for days. Mj is terrible with every deck he plays, he spends more time discussing why the deck is bad vs discussing how he could of played better. Sure, MJ did well 6+ years ago, but until I see him with a reasonable paper result I will continue to think of him as a terrible player with an even more terrible personality.

Yp$ vs Eidolon are honestly the same card. In game 1, it doesn't matter what two drop you are playing, or even if you play a 2 drop on turn 2...we are favored to win G1 vs almost every deck. Postboard, I believe SFD to better vs Junk/Mono U(especially with less judges familiar) than YP$ is. I think they are both equal in aggro matchups and monsters(might give the edge to Yp$ for monsters). Maybe it's my playstyle that leads me to think this. No one is either more right or more wrong than the other person.

Wow this is just so off-base it makes me cringe.

YP and Eidolon are in no universe the same card.
Eidolon is a higher-risk, higher-reward card with almost zero play to it. When you play Eidolon, all you want is to put early pressure on your opponent, slam an Eidolon, and ride their dwindling life total to victory. If you fail to get ahead early, Eidolon is an awful card that does very little besides kill you. YP is almost entirely the opposite. YP gives the burn deck a whole new angle from which to approach the game and allows us a huge amount of interaction. YP is not a risky card like Eidolon that will either pay off and win the game or do nothing, it's a skill-testing card that requires the pilot to think carefully about each decision he makes with each burn spell he casts. In return, YP adds a lot of power and play to the deck at virtually any point in the game during which you draw him.

In Game 1, or any game for that matter, it matters 500% whether or not we play a 2 drop on turn 2, even more so if you're playing Eidolon. All of the games I remember losing recently, I did not have any
early plays, and Eidolon gets worse the later in the game you play him.

We are NOT favored to win Game 1 against every deck. I get really tired of hearing that burn is favored against pretty much every deck in the format when the reality is that the deck just has the ability to draw very good opening hands and win with very little interaction and very little effort.

I think you're correct in saying that SFD is better in certain creature matchups than YP (although which ones those are we don't entirely agree on), but SFD is higher variance and much more narrow. Creatures on the board are good against almost every deck and damage to creatures are only good against decks that play them. I would rather have a more powerful and flexible card in my maindeck that can also do the job of a narrow SB card reasonably well then board a narrow SB card, especially if that means I have to main Eidolon.


Just to put an end to this malarky, I'll break down the difference between Eidolon and YP.
- Eidolon
is for people who want to play a zero-interaction game where the cards play themselves.
- YP is for people who want to have a deck that's more flexible and consistent but requires them to play magic against their opponent reasonably well.

Eidolon lists will put up results because the meta is weak to the burn plan, the plan and the cards are strong enough to net free wins, and the SB cards are there to board out Eidolon and board in a different haymaker when Eidolon is bad. The Eidolon deck isn't bad, but if you want to feel like you have some more control over the game, you should play YP.

And lastly, relativism is bullsh*t. Many people in this thread are very wrong about many things; "playstyle" differences don't account for every disagreement in this thread.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Now that I've watched all the videos on MJ playing R/W Burn, my opinion that he is overrated has been fully solidified. He punted over and over again and blamed the deck (happens to the best of us, but you usually don't see pros do it). Some of it was just bad luck / draws, but a lot of it was his sequencing and playing to the wrong outs / lack of intuition. It was painful to watch those videos. I get the impression he never played the deck before filming those videos. Not sure why you put him on such a pedestal Zem.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ Brainsick, I actually think we are favoured vs every deck but G/R monsters and Hexproof G1.

[Purp]

Yeah, I'd argue we are favored G1 vs monsters (I haven't lost to monsters in months). Ive won plenty of games where Ive never played a 2 a drop the entire game...

"If you fail to get ahead early, Eidolon is an awful card that does very little besides kill you."

What is your definition of getting ahead? I am always ahead early.

[Valdarith]

What is your definition of getting ahead? I am always ahead early.

You need to be very careful here, because unless you are the world's biggest lucksack you are not "always" ahead early.

For instance, have you ever had someone cast t2 Courser or Caryatid against you when you're on the draw in game one? If you have, then you are definitely behind early. You only have Chained to the Rocks to deal with Courser on your t2 or the Polukranos/Rampager being played off the Caryatid on t3.

And this isn't Magical Christmasland. It's a very real and very frequent opening.

[Purp]

I have never had a Courser casted on T2 against me.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I have... feels bad man...

[Lightning_Dolt]

Eidolon is very bad against G/R Monsters. It was one of my main reservations against main decking it.

[Purp]

It gets sided out,... you win G1 with or without it vs Monsters.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Hubris?

[Aodh]

Monsters is not an easy match-up. If they have any Polukranos -> Dragon (esp. with acceleration), then it's very hard to win.

[Aodh]

Preboard, I think MBA, MBD (with only one demon), Esper, and the mirror (us vs. rando) are favorable independent of our choice of 2-drop, whereas Monsters, Junk, and Dredge necessitate YP$ and MUD is easier with EotGR.

[LP, of the Fires]

Mj is a lot of things, but he's also an excellent magic player. Lots of players, pro or otherwise, will look terrible when they play a deck for the first time. Did you see Sam Black trying to play burn? It was...aweful.

MJ also has the personality of a wet napkin, but that's what makes him enjoyable to watch imo.

[Khaospawn]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

[Lightning_Dolt]

Preboard, I think MBA, MBD (with only one demon), Esper, and the mirror (us vs. rando) are favorable independent of our choice of 2-drop, whereas Monsters, Junk, and Dredge necessitate YP$ and MUD is easier with EotGR.

VS Mono Black Devotion: Even (Eidolon better in the short game, YP$ better going long)

VS Mono Black Aggro: Even (but basically a BYE either way)

VS UW/x: Eidolon (YP$ is miserable vs jace, Eidolon disrupts them)

VS Mirror: Eidolon (if they have Eidolon and you don't you're a pretty big underdog)

VS G/x decks:[/b:
viafg3w2] YP$ (eidolon only hurts you, YP$ gives you chumps for days if they don't have trample)

VS Mono Blue Devotion: YP$ (Eidolon is miserable, although you can side it out for Satyr Firedancer)

[Khaospawn]

I like how Eidolon makes people panicky and they're willing to just throw away their Mutavaults in hopes of killing it.