[Primer] Boros Burn

[Purp]

I like how Eidolon makes people panicky and they're willing to just throw away their Mutavaults in hopes of killing it.

The feels of awesome I get when they chump with a mutavault, and I play another Eidolon.

[HK1997]

Preboard, I think MBA, MBD (with only one demon), Esper, and the mirror (us vs. rando) are favorable independent of our choice of 2-drop, whereas Monsters, Junk, and Dredge necessitate YP$ and MUD is easier with EotGR.

VS Mono Black Devotion: Even (Eidolon better in the short game, YP$ better going long)

VS Mono Black Aggro: Even (but basically a BYE either way)

VS UW/x: Eidolon (YP$ is miserable vs jace, Eidolon disrupts them)

[b:
3qyc0r6t]VS Mirror:[/b] Eidolon (if they have Eidolon and you don't you're a pretty big underdog)

VS G/x decks: YP$ (eidolon only hurts you, YP$ gives you chumps for days if they don't have trample)

VS Mono Blue Devotion: YP$ (Eidolon is miserable, although you can side it out for Satyr Firedancer)

UW/x, Mono B Devotion and Burn make up about 60% of mtgotop8 in the past 2 viewable weeks. Just having both YP and Eidolon and no SFD seems to be the better call to me. Midrange decks have been on the decline and anywhere else where SFD would be sided in, is just win-more imo.

[Lightning_Dolt]

SFD actually makes Monsters winnable though.

[dauntless268]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Bidding Master, you are my hero.... We tear each other to pieces about YP vs. Eidolon and you play them both 4-of... What is he then, Khaos?

[BiddingMaster]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Bidding Master, you are my hero.... We tear each other to pieces about YP vs. Eidolon and you play them both 4-of... What is he then, Khaos?

I always felt like alot of my openers were not nessesarilly mulligans but again were not really all that strong. If I could play 8 chandra's
pheonix I would do it in a heartbeat. I just wanted another repeatable source of damage that resembled yp$ and chandra;s phoenix. Eidolon kind of fills that role but he really needs to be hanging with his bros to really shine. There are alot of times playing lightning dolts list where I only had eidolon and phoenix and only drew the eidolon I died because I couldnt get in those last bits of damage fast enough.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Skyknight Legionnaire?

[BrainsickHater]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't want to play magic. Eidolon will net you free wins but YP will reward your ability to play the game with more numerous well-earned wins.

YP > Eidolon

[Rhyno]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't want to play magic.

One could also make the ridiculous argument that if you play burn you don't want to play magic, because you should be playing a more skill intensive deck like control.

When I'm trying to win, I don't care how "free" or fast or "earned" it is. It's
irrelevant.

[Purp]

The "you want free wins and don't want to play interactive magic" argument is such horseshit. My wallet doesn't care how much effort I put into my victory, it just cares about how many stacks I'm storing it.

"only had eidolon and phoenix and only drew the eidolon I died because I couldnt get in those last bits of damage fast enough."
What if you only drew the phoenix, and not enough early dmg to win either? What if you didn't draw either creature and won? What if you didn't draw YP$ but only Phoenix and lost? What if you draw a YP$ but no phoenix and lost?

You see how dumb that statement was right?

"I'm better at magic than you because I choose to lose with a more skill intensive deck than win with a not so skill intensive deck."

[Purp]

It doesn't matter whether you win by an inch, or a mile. Winning is winning.

[Elricity]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't want to play magic.

One could also make the ridiculous argument that if you play burn you don't want to play magic, because you should be playing
a more skill intensive deck like control.

Depending how who you talk to, playing control is also "trying not to play magic".

That said, I don't think Brainsick is saying it's bad because it's low brow, even if you win. I think he's saying that because it's low brow, even if you sometimes get free wins, overall, you're losing more.

At least, I hope that is what he's saying.

[Rhyno]

Depending how who you talk to, playing control is also "trying not to play magic".

I didn't say it was a good argument, it's a pointless one.

That said, I don't think Brainsick is saying it's bad because it's low brow, even if you win. I think he's saying that because it's low brow, even if you sometimes get free wins, overall, you're losing more.

At least, I hope that is what he's saying.

I understand his argument, my point is that calling certain wins "free" or "earned" has nothing to do if you're actually winning or losing more. If we want to have a productive discussion it should be about whether or not the options afforded by YP are actually better than
slamming an Eidolon. It's irrelevant if one options is "earning" wins.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't want to play magic. Eidolon will net you free wins but YP will reward your ability to play the game with more numerous well-earned wins.

YP > Eidolon

By that logic, Storm players, Pod players, Burn players and Hexproof players aren't playing magic lol.

[LP, of the Fires]

The only actually thing that matters is which build nets you the highest win%.

Free wins, skill intensive, blah blah blah, doesn't matter.

There's only the win% at the end of the day that you should care about.

[Tyrael]

Idk about you but I'm not gonna play a deck that bores me to death even if it would get me the highest % of wins...

[jsilv]

I like the number of strawman / bullshit arguments being played out over the last 4-5 pages. Well played.

[Khaospawn]

I like the number of strawman / bullshit arguments being played out over the last 4-5 pages. Well played.

The thread is a lie.

[Khaospawn]

The only actually thing that matters is which build nets you the highest win%.

Free wins, skill intensive, blah blah blah, doesn't matter.

There's only the win% at the end of the day that you should care about.

But I'm better than you because I have to think more to win. And my Mountains are from Arabian Nights.

[BrainsickHater]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't
want to play magic.

One could also make the ridiculous argument that if you play burn you don't want to play magic, because you should be playing a more skill intensive deck like control.

Depending how who you talk to, playing control is also "trying not to play magic".

That said, I don't think Brainsick is saying it's bad because it's low brow, even if you win. I think he's saying that because it's low brow, even if you sometimes get free wins, overall, you're losing more.

At least, I hope that is what he's saying.

That's 100% what I'm saying.

If Eidolon was the stronger card of the two, then I would snap-play it. I play burn because I enjoy it, particularly the part where my opponent can't do anything to stop me from searing his face off. The bottom line is not that Eidolon takes more control of the game away from both players, it's that I feel the loss of control will be a detriment often enough that it's not
worth playing.

I apologize for getting insanely butthurt. I don't mind if everyone and their mother wants to play Eidolon, that's 100% fine. The card wins games and puts up results. But I don't think it's correct to say that Eidolon is better or even equal to Young Pyromancer, and that's a distinction worth being made.

[Khaospawn]

Nobody said one was better than the other. They both serve different functions. It just depends on how you want to play/win the game.

[zemanjaski]

Preboard, I think MBA, MBD (with only one demon), Esper, and the mirror (us vs. rando) are favorable independent of our choice of 2-drop, whereas Monsters, Junk, and Dredge necessitate YP$ and MUD is easier with EotGR.

VS Mono Black Devotion: Even (Eidolon better in the short game, YP$ better going long)

VS Mono Black Aggro: Even (but basically a BYE either way)

VS UW/x: Eidolon (YP$ is miserable vs jace, Eidolon disrupts them)

[b:
2h5c08nt]VS Mirror:[/b] Eidolon (if they have Eidolon and you don't you're a pretty big underdog)

VS G/x decks: YP$ (eidolon only hurts you, YP$ gives you chumps for days if they don't have trample)

VS Mono Blue Devotion: YP$ (Eidolon is miserable, although you can side it out for Satyr Firedancer)

Close.

Eidolon isn't good against MBA aggro on the draw (he's fine on the play) because they can outclass him at 3; they're aggressive enough to punish you for playing him if that does happen. Its a small edge to YP.

Otherwise, saying YP is miserable vs Jace is just inaccurate. I hope I don't have to continually reiterate this very simple explanation.

Worth noting that with UW Control and BG Midrange been popular, Toil // Trouble variants are extremely well positioned at the moment.

[zemanjaski]

My point was not to say that people are worse for playing Eidolon, that is an inane reading - you play whatever wins - but that YP gives you more opportunity to outplay an opponent. Conversely, the card has a lot more room for errors too.

[zemanjaski]

@Brainsick

I'm trying to sum up your argument here: people that play the Eidolon are non-interactive dummies and people that play YP$ are the high brow thinkers? Am I close to the mark?

Pretty much.

If you argue that Eidolon is better than you basically don't want to play magic. Eidolon will net you free wins but YP will reward your ability to play the game with more numerous well-earned wins.

YP > Eidolon[/
quote]

By that logic, Storm players, Pod players, Burn players and Hexproof players aren't playing magic lol.

Pod players are; the rest really are trying to gold fish. That's fine, and for many players that is exactly what I would recommend, but they're not affording themselves maximum opportunity to outplay their opponents (which may or may not be a good thing).

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I'd argue we are favored G1 vs monsters (I haven't lost to monsters in months). Ive won plenty of games where Ive never played a 2 a drop the entire game...

"If you fail to get ahead early, Eidolon is an awful card that does very little besides kill you."

What is your definition of getting ahead? I am always ahead early.

No, you're not.

There is a huge number of turn 2 plays that puts you behind, especially if you're on Eidolon. That's fine of course, and being behind doesn't equal losing. To use chess analytics, it is the equivalent of being down half a point or less; a small disadvantage that will often even out to equality in the long run, but for now, one player is slightly advantaged, often in the form of a shortly
enjoyed initiative.

[zemanjaski]

Final point while I am focussed, calling MJ shit then leaning on winning States as a source of credibility is illogical. Don't do it. MJ is a National and World Champion; he might not be as good as he was because he doesn't follow formats closely anymore, but his underlying understanding of the game is still top notch and his insight is far beyond any one of us. If you have an open mind and are willing to sit and digest what he has to say, you will learn a lot, I do every time.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]Sydney Masters Classic 5K Standard 25 May 2014[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
*WIP*

Sideboard
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Satyr Firedancer
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

wellpositionedcards.dek

[Lightning_Dolt]

So the answer to yp$ vs EGR is neither? Lol

How about this:
Lands (23)
2 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

[Lightning_Dolt]

Aren't you worried about Ram invalidating your Firstblades?

[Lightning_Dolt]

he might not be as good as he was because he doesn't follow formats closely anymore

I think this is why his matches went so poorly, but he couldn't admit it and just blamed it on the deck.

[zemanjaski]

If people want to play decks that won't do anything for 3 turns, then i'd rather just play Toil // Trouble and punish them as much as possible.

I like the idea of mana confluence (makes Firedrinkers better) though i''ll figure out the mana base when I sit down tonight with the pen and paper; but you're about right from the old eyeball test (within 1 card at most).

I don't think I will ever play EGR because it just doesn't play to my strengths at all.

[zemanjaski]

Aren't you worried about Ram invalidating your Firstblades?

If I was worried, would I play them?

You're a clever guy, think about it.

[BiddingMaster]

Aren't you worried about Ram invalidating your Firstblades?

If I was worried, would I play them?

You're a clever guy, think about it.

I agree. I rarely see a ram from the control opponent because the sideboards that I have seen only run two of them and some only run three anyway. When i say rarely it is not an exaggeration it just doesnt show often enough for me to prepare or worry about it.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Aren't you worried about Ram invalidating your Firstblades?

If I was worried, would I play them?

You're a clever guy, think about it.

Let me rephrase; I think you should be worried about it.

[Purp]

Final point while I am focussed, calling MJ shit then leaning on winning States as a source of credibility is illogical. Don't do it. MJ is a National and World Champion; he might not be as good as he was because he doesn't follow formats closely anymore, but his underlying understanding of the game is still top notch and his insight is far beyond any one of us. If you have an open mind and are willing to sit and digest what he has to say, you will learn a lot, I do every time.

I'm not leaning on States for anything, it's a glorified IQ in my eyes(I'd rather have the cash prize from IQs than packs from States). I am simply calling him shit, because I watch his stream... he plays like shit, then blames the deck for
being bad rather than analyzing his misplays. I hate when i hear him say "this card is not even remotely playable.(I've heard him state this about YP$)" Which happens more often than not (not referring to Wild Guess, this is all previous decks I have seen him pilot.)

I don't think you have to be worried about Ram that much. I think the control matchup is pretty much unloseable game 1. You have two games to connect with a VFB and them not have a ram. Having maybe 1 chain, and 2 Wears post board, its not really that scary of a card. I will agree no 2 drop route could be a good way to go as more and more people are trying to counter it.

Are you thinking of VFB vs BG Devo Z? I know in our minds its much better to side out lifebane, but I feel a lot of Mono B players still leave them in.
Curious if 2 Chandra, 1 SBD might be better there.

Man I love the versatility of this deck(all variants). I would be interested to hear your thoughts on approaching the mirror with that configuration. I
like how that configuration has a lot of ways to SB based on play/draw.

The one thing about playing mana confluence, there are games where you wish you had a mountain in order to attach chain onto it, but by going to 3 mutas this may solve that issue (i ran into a couple times)

I also think its very important to post the context of decklists (ie. Paper/MODO, big event, small event, expected meta etc.)

[Aodh]

Got shit on by burn and UW at TNM while running MBA. I'm likely coming back to this deck. I'll be on 0/4 Phoenix, 0/4 YP$, 0 EotGR.

[Aodh]

I think Glare of Heresy is the best sideboard card against UWx because it hits anything they have to threaten our advantage (FSP, exile effects for Phoenix/Chandra, AAoT, BlOb, etc.) definitely the most versatile and you won't be caught with your pants down.

[Lightning_Dolt]

But it's only good in that one matchup. I run stormbreath dragons instead.

Also, it might just be a meta thing, but everyone here has 3-4 Rams. Some even mainboard it.

Trust me purp, game 1 is totally losable.

[Rhyno]

Also, it might just be a meta thing, but everyone here has 3-4 Rams. Some even mainboard it.

This has been my experience as well.

[magicdownunder]

@Z: Sydney Masters Classic 5K Standard 25 May 2014 <--- more info please (I'll prefer a link if possible), I'll see if I can somehow scrape up a deck-list.

I also highly recommend Eidolon of the Great Revel over Firedrinker Satyr from the SB since he doesn't suffer that "if I don't see him by T3 he is a dead card syndrome".

[Khaospawn]

@Z: Sydney Masters Classic 5K Standard 25 May 2014 <--- more info please (I'll prefer a link if possible), I'll see if I can somehow scrape up a deck-list.

I also highly recommend Eidolon of the Great Revel over Firedrinker Satyr from the SB since he doesn't suffer that "if I don't see him by T3 he is a dead card syndrome".

Really? Firedrinker Satyr is never a dead card against decks like U/w (which is when he's brought in). Dat pump ability.....

edit: if the post sounds sarcastic, it's not meant to be.