[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[hamfactorial]

I was on the FoS board on MTG Salvation. I dropped out for a while, because my schedule at work changed and I couldn't make it to ANY MtG events except Saturday and Sunday. Since there were none and it hasn't looked like my schedule would change, I sold my collection and invested in Kaijudo. I've been playing Kaijudo since April.

I am planning on getting back into MtG when Theros comes out. I've been looking at M14 cards and I don't see RDW getting much support to replace the staples that will rotate. However, I loved all R/x variants and figure I can jump back in with a budgeted version of RDW, Dos-Rakis, Gruul aggro, or even Jund Aggro. I want to start acquiring cards to be able to build these whenever I want. What are the staples I should be getting now
anticapting rotation?

EDIT: Oh! Also, does anyone have a Dos-Rakis deck that does not include Innistrad block and M13?

I posted an RB shell that's largely immune to Doom Blade in the brewing thread. Check it out - http://diestoremoval.com/viewtopic.php? ... 217#p80217

It doesn't have any INN block or M13 and was intended as my starting point for post-rotation brewing.

[hamfactorial]

Guys, please talk me out of trying to imprint a Boros Charm onto an Isochron Scepter in my burn deck. Instant speed destruction protection OR 4 damage at EOT is almost too good to resist.

I'm sick from too many janky brews.

[Kazekirimaru]

DO IT

fuck the system

[hamfactorial]

lozlz. OK, my jank brewer hard-on is at full staff.

[photodyer]

Vala I like that list a LOT. Very close to an "all haste" list I was thinking of a while ago, but of course a lot tighter of a list than I came up with.

Damn, wraspy...I just ran onto your post from last night over in the brewery thread. Why didn't you just say that you were already going down this path? Too strange that we were thinking down the same lines at about the same time...then again, we are both coming at this from playing around with the BG Rock list and looking at the possibility of neutralizing Lifebane as a threat while utilizing him as a weapon. We're definitely in the same ballpark, but I'm leaning towards making the zombie low man on the curve with removal/hand disruption being the goal of the early turns.

That
being said, I love the new take on RakHammer, Val, as well as the more classic BR control, Yarpus.

Time to get back to Raki roots for some testing; I still love playing both The Rock and Crats, but its time to explore a bit.

EDIT: I just realized another synergy that gets back to a looong ago discussion of breaking a card...

Desecration Demon and Mutilate certainly play well together...what if they were buddied up with Master of Cruelties? Demon, Mutilate, they play creature to stop demon from swinging, play Master. If they have a creature, they have to choose between leaving it up to block Master or feeding it to the DD...either way they are hosed. Chandra actually synergizes with this plan as well in that her +1 can disable blocking and at other times she's a draw engine. Thoughts?

[toddulent]

I was on the FoS board on MTG Salvation. I dropped out for a while, because my schedule at work changed and I couldn't make it to ANY MtG events except Saturday and Sunday. Since there were none and it hasn't looked like my schedule would change, I sold my collection and invested in Kaijudo. I've been playing Kaijudo since April.

I am planning on getting back into MtG when Theros comes out. I've been looking at M14 cards and I don't see RDW getting much support to replace the staples that will rotate. However, I loved all R/x variants and figure I can jump back in with a budgeted version of RDW, Dos-
Rakis, Gruul aggro, or even Jund Aggro. I want to start acquiring cards to be able to build these whenever I want. What are the staples I should be getting now anticapting rotation?

EDIT: Oh! Also, does anyone have a Dos-Rakis deck that does not include Innistrad block and M13?

I posted an RB shell that's largely immune to Doom Blade in the brewing thread. Check it out - http://diestoremoval.com/viewtopic.php? ... 217#p80217

It doesn't have any INN block or M13 and was intended as my starting point for post-rotation brewing.

Tried to check it out, but it says I don't have access to read it.

[zemanjaski]

May have found a breakthrough for the RW token storm list for modern; we needed a 3 mana token spell that gave 3 bodies; Spectral Possession was asking a little too much of the mana, so we abandoned the idea (2 mana for 2 creatures is very underwhelming).

Timely Reinforcements.

The issue is making sure we have little enough life to get a second timely when we don't have a Pyromancer in play, but with enough fetches, shocks and painlands, that should be doable (also Gitaxian Probe). Of course, the spell is just very good against any aggro deck.

4 Young Pyromancer

4 Battle Hymn
3 Burn at the Stake
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Lore
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Timely Reinforcements

4 Arid Mesa
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn

2 Mountain
1 Plains

Rough start, but you get the idea.

[zemanjaski]

Also considering RWBg tokens built around:
- Young Pyro
- Deathrite
- Dark Confidant
- Lingering Souls
- Intangible Virtue

Then all the 1 mana spells I can find.

[Lightning_Dolt]

RDW had a big weekend. Three top 8's and a win in the MODO premier with this list:

http://mtgo-stats.com/decks/70439

Can someone explain the one of's to me? I get the geistflame I guess, for killing a dork and then recurring phoenix later. I'm not sure about faithless looting though.

[zemanjaski]

The Looting does a few little things:
- discards excess lands or excess 1 drops
- discards phoenix
- discards shock/pillar/geistflame when they're bad

It's only a 1-of, but I guess you need to play being aware you can draw it.

[zemanjaski]

RB Ad Nauseum Aggro-Combo for Modern:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Death's Shadow
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Vampire Lacerator

3 Ad Nauseum
4 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze

4 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn

6 Mountain
1 Swamp

It's likely there is room for improvement with the creatures and spells, but the actual idea is pretty sweet. Ill explain the combo, but I want to give people a chance to guess it.

[Platypus]

Lower life with Ad Nauseam, draw Death's Shadows, give them Haste with Bushwhacker?

[zemanjaski]

Yeah buddy.

Plan A is just aggro them to death. Plan C is Ad Nauseum into burn. Nifty deck I think.

[zemanjaski]

You might not even want the suicidal mana base, since it means drawing less with Ad Nauseum, but I would need to test to see. Keeping avg. cost at about 0.75/card is important for Confidant/AdNauseum.

[zemanjaski]

Sideboard cards:
- Rakdos Charm
- Deathmark
- Duress

Maybe something for Twin?

[photodyer]

I sent you a PM with the idea as well, James, but I wasn't sure if I had the whole picture. Fun, and totally Rakdos in flavor!

[Lightning_Dolt]

I tried the ad nauseum > death's shadow deck when it was in standard. It wasn't consistent enough for my liking.

[Platypus]

I don't know what the Standard deck looked like, but Ad Nauseam + Death's Shadow as a backup plan might work better than a deck built around it.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I don't know what the Standard deck looked like, but Ad Nauseam + Death's Shadow as a backup plan might work better than a deck built around it.

Standard version was very similar.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... ly/boab/80

[photodyer]

Alright...here's a first draft of Rakdos Cruelty:

[deck]
LAND (25)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
12 Swamp

CREATURES (15)
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Master of Cruelties


OTHER SPELLS (20)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sign in Blood
1 Underworld Connections
4 Mutilate
1 Rakdos’s Return
2 Searing Spear
2 Dreadbore
2 Tragic Slip
1 Doom Blade

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Burning Earth
2 Slaughter Games
2 Electrickery
or
2 Rolling Temblor
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Underworld Connections
1 Dreadbore
1 Pithing Needle
[/deck]

I'm pretty solid on the components, but the numbers likely need massaged. I really want Mutavault in here for early board presence that lives through Mutilate, but I have doubts as to whether it and Mutilate can coexist given the Mountains. Olivia may need more red
sources than this and thus be a suboptimal choice, and the main deck may very well need more sweepers.

Questions, comments, suggestions and so forth, please.

[zemanjaski]

I dint know what Master of Cruelties does in your deck.

[Yarpus]

What's the general opinion about Gruul War Chant? I'm currently trying out RG Aggro, very Sligh build with 4 Domri and 2 War Chants as my only non-creature spells.

[Platypus]

I haven't played with it, but I find it a bit awkward at four CC as long as Hellrider is in Standard. Once he's gone, and Pyreheart Wolf, then maybe in a Gruul deck. Mono-red might want Ogre Battledriver instead, and BR Exava, in Hellrider's place.

[photodyer]

I dint know what Master of Cruelties does in your deck.

It was a comment that I added as an edit in an earlier post--copied in below:

"I just realized another synergy that gets back to a looong ago discussion of breaking a card...

Desecration Demon and Mutilate certainly play well together...what if they were buddied up with Master of Cruelties? Demon, Mutilate, they play creature to stop demon from swinging, play Master. If they have a creature, they have to choose between leaving it up to block Master or feeding it to the DD...either way they are hosed. Chandra actually synergizes with this plan as well in that her +1 can disable blocking and at other times she's a draw engine. Thoughts?"

Master after a
board wipe in general would have to be dealt with, and not many existing creatures can take him; thus ,this seemed to be to be an appropriate shell for trying to go live with him. What pitfalls am I missing?

[zemanjaski]

I think that the card is only really good in that scenario and in that scenario most anything your deck does is winning IMO.

Modern (my favourite format now that's its FNM);

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Boros Charm
2 Intangible Virtue
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Tribal Flames

4 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Caracombs

1 Mountain
1 Swamp

[photodyer]

I think that the card is only really good in that scenario and in that scenario most anything your deck does is winning IMO.

Point. Just as a straight-up first-striking deathtouch dude with a 4 butt he's nothing shabby, but I'm likely just being a bit too Johnny. Other than the 4th Hellkite what else would you add/change?

[redthirst]

A 5th Hellkite.

[Yarpus]

What about going discard route? Liliana, Rakdos's Return... Shrieking Affliction?

[deck]Creatures (8):
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon

Other Spells (28):
4 Appetite for Brains
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Tragic Slip
4 Doom Blade
4 Sign in Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Rakdos's Return

Lands (24):
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
16 Swamp

Sideboard (15):
15 Cards[/deck]

Maybe even Sire of Insanity.

[photodyer]

A 5th Hellkite.

He rides in out of nowhere, lost to all but legend, and fires off a killing shot without missing a beat. How goes it, Red Leader?

[hamfactorial]

The ultimate red deck creature: Squadron Hellkite.

[redthirst]

A 5th Hellkite.

He rides in out of nowhere, lost to all but legend, and fires off a killing shot without missing a beat. How goes it, Red Leader?

Been playing Civilization mostly - forgot how addictive it is.

Was able to find the time to jump into the Dega thread and be a dick to Kamahl, though.

[hamfactorial]

Tried to check it out, but it says I don't have access to read it.

Here's the post from that thread -

I've been thinking about aggro post-rotation in the era of Doom Blade. I brewed up the following deck, with a mind to replace a few weak spots with anything that Theros may give us.

The deck aims to whack on you with hasty threats (natural or with help from Exava) or threats that are largely immune to Doom Blade and Ultimate Price.

[Deck]Creatures:25
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Slitherhead
3 Ash Zealot
3 Spike Jester
3 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Hellhole Flailer
4 Exava, Rakdos
Blood Witch

Spells:12
4 Shock
3 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return

Lands:23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
13 Mountain
2 Rakdos Guildgate

Sideboard:15
1 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Mindsparker
1 Underworld Connections
[/deck]

[Khaospawn]

A 5th Hellkite.

He rides in out of nowhere, lost to all but legend, and fires off a killing shot without missing a beat. How goes it, Red Leader?

Was able to find the time to jump into the Dega thread and be a dick to Kamahl, though.
[/quote:
15eoby99]
This I must see...

[Valdarith]

I think that the card is only really good in that scenario and in that scenario most anything your deck does is winning IMO.

Point. Just as a straight-up first-striking deathtouch dude with a 4 butt he's nothing shabby, but I'm likely just being a bit too Johnny. Other than the 4th Hellkite what else would you add/change?

I'd add a third Searing Spear and a fourth Hellkite really. There's no reason to run Master because in any board state that he resolves in with this deck, it's very likely that you're winning the game already with a card like Hellkite or
Olivia. He's just too cute.

Really though I'm just not fond of the deck in general. The whole purpose of playing RB right now is to play a powerful curve of creatures and keep the pedal to the metal against your opponent. There's just no reason not to run Ash Zealot into Phoenix into Aristocrat into Hellkite right now. You still get to run Chandra which control decks hate, and every single one of your nonland cards are good in almost every phase of the game, and because you're running Burning Earth you can simply curve out, get your opponent to below 10 life, resolve Burning Earth, and laugh in their face.

[photodyer]

No, Khaos, the thread will only make your brain hurt...the atrocious grammar is enough to make me want to sand my eyeballs. The funny thing, however, is that almost everyone there is now wise to what Kamahl's shoveling and the peasants are revolting. Regrettably though, the whole deck discussion is forever derailed; I don't think its viable regardless, but it's a shame that people who want to can't have a reasoned discussion without Kamahl dumping superfluous garbage in to get things off-kilter.

[Kazekirimaru]

Tried to check it out, but it says I don't have access to read it.

Yeah, you need access. Tell redthirst about it.

[redthirst]

Tried to check it out, but it says I don't have access to read it.

Yeah, you need access. Tell redthirst about it.

Restricted forum access is for Tier 2+ clan members. That being said, I don't really have an issue with grandfathering tod in, but it's Khaos and Ham's call - that's ultimately their department.

[Kazekirimaru]

I didn't know there were "departments" in the clan council.

Who's in charge of calling the people to mass for the church of thirst? Because they're seriously fucking blowing it.

[photodyer]

I think that the card is only really good in that scenario and in that scenario most anything your deck does is winning IMO.

Point. Just as a straight-up first-striking deathtouch dude with a 4 butt he's nothing shabby, but I'm likely just being a bit too Johnny. Other than the 4th Hellkite what else would you add/change?

I'd add a third Searing Spear and a fourth Hellkite really. There's no reason to
run Master because in any board state that he resolves in with this deck, it's very likely that you're winning the game already with a card like Hellkite or Olivia. He's just too cute.

Really though I'm just not fond of the deck in general. The whole purpose of playing RB right now is to play a powerful curve of creatures and keep the pedal to the metal against your opponent. There's just no reason not to run Ash Zealot into Phoenix into Aristocrat into Hellkite right now. You still get to run Chandra which control decks hate, and every single one of your nonland cards are good in almost every phase of the game, and because you're running Burning Earth you can simply curve out, get your opponent to below 10 life, resolve Burning Earth, and laugh in their face.

Thanks for the comments, Val; I'm glad that Dos Rakis is being good to you. Personally, however, I'm looking to do a different dance, and I don't think that BR (rather than RB) is relegated to playing an aggro curve. I
played Dos Rakis through the early days of the deck and into Gatecrash Standard, and I watched the meta close down around it. Burning Earth does open up some possibilities, but Kibler's Gruul creation has more ramp and resilience--it's hard to justify not going that route for pure aggro. Although I will readily admit that the waning of Lingering Souls-based decks is opening the door back up for our beloved Aristocrat, the reasonable possibility of hitting Hellkite mana on T3-4 is big game.

But aggro preferences aside, I'm just not really interested in playing that style of deck right now. Locally, UWr and Bant both get too much play, and I'm tired of the matchups from an aggro perspective. I'm in the mood to wipe boards for a while, not get mine wiped by early-turn miracled Bonfires. I really like the Rock deck both in terms of style and function, and I'm just looking to see if BR Midrange is a viable alternative. It certainly may not be, but then it's the whole point of this exercise to find
out.

The other reason that I'm eschewing the aggro concept right now is that I know without question that I will be hip-deep in brewing red-based aggro as soon as we start looking to rotation. Variety be the spice of life...

[hamfactorial]

I'm OK with toddulent being tier 2. I checked the archives, it appears that he was very active in our MTGS thread.