[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

[Link]

Congrats LP! Cavern on Shapeshifter seems hilarious, nice read. Here are my thoughts:

1. Why do you board out Stromkirk in the mirror? Put him on having elecktrickeries in the SB and just want to make them all dead? As you saw in that one match, Noble+VS can take over some games if they tap out for a board state once incorrectly. I usually take out cacklers because they can't block, and they might get in for damage once before getting blocked by a boar or ash zealot/thalia or something.

2. I definitely recommend trying without mortars in the 75. I understand its great in the mirror, but as you yourself said if you're playing defense and mortars'ing their stuff, you're still losing the race. If you draw even one extra land than him, then the removal didn't effectively mean anything anyway and you get overrun. Mortars is just a slow, reactive card, and you can barely overload it. Maybe its just a style thing.... I
usually slam down threats and floor the gas in the mirror and dare them to race, if I do my math better (like in the write-up above) I can save my burn for their face if I know I'm outracing them instead of trying to play "controlly" with my burn.

I also don't like that you have to spend a card. Firefist allows you to NOT spend a card, and the match-ups where relevant things are to be mortar'd (besides the mirror) they run limited removal (Junk, bant), so Firefist is easy to get online. GCR also is a graet answer to anything you want to mortar, but he also DOES 4 damage, rather than just to a creature (aka mortars is only EVER as efficient at getting damage through if its on a x/4 as GCR). I don't feel its needed, and in that slot you can run Domri's and Pyreheart wolf (who does serious work in the control AEtherling shells popping up, as well as against Jund.)

3. You still want to keep 2 Skullcracks in the board? That's where I dropped it to after playing with 3, and you'll probably
end up cutting it entirely as you play more with this deck.

Against Esper. Imagine if those were Pyrehearts! Now instead of spending a card to stop some irrelevant lifegain, they have to spend TWO cards on one of your threats. And as you saw in the Junk MU, the problem isnt' thragtusk its them GETTING to thrag. So when he stumbles you need a card that's a threat (pyreheart) or burning his fixing (elecktrickery) to punish him, at least IMO. If you have a decent field out with pyreheart, he's also going to do more damage the turn after thrag comes down than Skullcrack (assuming skullcrack=8 damage at its VERY best) not to mention every other turn.

I've found in recent testing the best way to beat junk rites is just to grind them out. Aka boarding out 2 GCR can be fine if it gives you more evasion. Just make all of their threats meaningless because they can't block and you don't have to Bloodrush (except as a finisher once maybe so I don't board them all out), and you can
win through lifegain easy. If they get Angel out early they get her out, w/e. If they get her out twice in a Round then gg I guess.

Another reason to not have mortars or GCR against rites, their only actual way of getting card advantage is Unburial rites. Aka, if you don't KILL their threats, how can they get more uses out of their card? Mortars my Smiter/Centaur Healer? Yes pls, now I bring him back and you are down a mortar.

[dpaine88]

don't add naturalize to the sideboard, trust me.

You have two colors and they have three, you should always be more consistent naturally (no pun intended). If they see the lifegain every game its unfortunate, but they need to see the lifegain AND have someone hexproof to put it on AND the right colors to do it. Don't dilute your deck and just race them, if its so popular and problematic, skullcrack is good as a blowout card (and anti-blowout if they have a fog in their SB which they do)

I suppose, it just does suck that he saw a Hexproof guy and Unflinching courage every game.... game 3 he was at 19 and I had 18 dmg on the board =(

It still seems like swapping a few out for Searing Spear wouldn't be a bad idea.


I was at/near the top
tables all day and there was soooo much Bant Hexproof it was nuts...

[Link]

A lot of lists have centaur healers which you need spears for, and burn is pretty important for flat out winning the game (imagine a game in which his Geist has 2 ethereal armors and a rancor. Naturalizing a single one saves you... af ew points of dmg?) Its also pretty unusable in all other match-ups so its a waste of SB spot.

Yeah it does suck, but don't let it dilute your deck. Sometimes they just have 3 nuts and all you can do is laugh at their deformity and beat them next time

[dpaine88]

A lot of lists have centaur healers which you need spears for, and burn is pretty important for flat out winning the game (imagine a game in which his Geist has 2 ethereal armors and a rancor. Naturalizing a single one saves you... af ew points of dmg?) Its also pretty unusable in all other match-ups so its a waste of SB spot.

Yeah it does suck, but don't let it dilute your deck. Sometimes they just have 3 nuts and all you can do is laugh at their deformity and beat them next time

Hmm that is true, but I feel like Spectral Flight and Etheral Armor are worth killing to allow me to block or trade with their creature. Can act almost as a combat trick by removing flying or +x/x and First Strike after they attack.

I have not found my deck full of
sideboard options to begin with, and think I have room for Naturalize. It seems to be a very common deck in my area based on local 1k's and 5k's.

One of the top4 G/R decks from the SCG open ran 3 Hellrider and 1 Pyreheart, pretty interesting.

[dpaine88]

You know, maybe not Naturalize but I could throw in Deadly Recluse or Ambush Viper. But They miss on unblockable guys or possibly flying in case of Viper.

Current SB:

3 Mark of Mutiny
3 Volcanic Strength
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Electrickery
3 Domri Rade
3 *Bant hex slot* , possibly Naturalize

[LP, of the Fires]

Naturalize is def something I would consider. I found myself bringing in skullcrack on the draw just for unflinching courage.

I also actually bothered testing the mirror a bit today to figure out how badly I played my last round. Turns out I was trading to aggressively. In the agro mirror matches, trading always benefits the player on the draw as they're up a card. Common sense probably, but I had previously been on the draw in 100% of my agro matchups that day and didn't adjust my play properly on the play resulting in an 0-2 loss instead of giving myself a chance for a game 3.

@Fate, I'll respond in detail later. I think I'm going to show up late to game day now and see if anyones down for some games.

[Link]

looking forward to it.

naturalize just seems too cute. skullcrack at least is more versatile and relevant in how the MU plays out.

I feel the same way about plummet

[dpaine88]

Damn this deck is the nuts, just won Gameday too.

Naturalize I think is a lot better than Skullcrack since it hits any of their enchants that might be giving you trouble and not just for one turn. I guess if you kill them the next turn, but thats only for Courage. Naturalize can let you kill their guy be removing Etheral Armor, it can let you surprise block their Spectral Flight guy and kill it or get rid of Courage.

[LP, of the Fires]

Congrats LP! Cavern on Shapeshifter seems hilarious, nice read. Here are my thoughts:

1. Why do you board out Stromkirk in the mirror? Put him on having elecktrickeries in the SB and just want to make them all dead? As you saw in that one match, Noble+VS can take over some games if they tap out for a board state once incorrectly. I usually take out cacklers because they can't block, and they might get in for damage once before getting blocked by a boar or ash zealot/thalia or something.

Don't remember exactly what I boarded for the mirror, but I do know I kept stromkirks in for the mirror match I lost and I'm sure it's correct to at least keep all your one-drops on the play. On the draw, I can see taking out cacklers. [/
b]

2. I definitely recommend trying without mortars in the 75. I understand its great in the mirror, but as you yourself said if you're playing defense and mortars'ing their stuff, you're still losing the race. If you draw even one extra land than him, then the removal didn't effectively mean anything anyway and you get overrun. Mortars is just a slow, reactive card, and you can barely overload it. Maybe its just a style thing.... I usually slam down threats and floor the gas in the mirror and dare them to race, if I do my math better (like in the write-up above) I can save my burn for their face if I know I'm outracing them instead of trying to play "controlly" with my burn.

Style thing. While I DO play mono-creature naya blitz, in this deck, I feel I retain naya's goldfish ability, but I prefer the ability to have control over how games play with my removal. I'll test the mortarless version, but I know I have bias against
it and the maindeck mortars was almost always amazing.

I also don't like that you have to spend a card. Firefist allows you to NOT spend a card, and the match-ups where relevant things are to be mortar'd (besides the mirror) they run limited removal (Junk, bant), so Firefist is easy to get online. GCR also is a graet answer to anything you want to mortar, but he also DOES 4 damage, rather than just to a creature (aka mortars is only EVER as efficient at getting damage through if its on a x/4 as GCR). I don't feel its needed, and in that slot you can run Domri's and Pyreheart wolf (who does serious work in the control AEtherling shells popping up, as well as against Jund.)

Problem with firefist is it gets worse against better players and I'm most concerned with beating better players. Pyreheart is probably fine, but actually feels incredibly dorky in this list. I'm playing gruul instead of mono-red because I want more consistent
turn 4 kills. Pyreheart is more for the turn 8 kills and grindier games which is something I was tired of playing. Wolf is also a LOT worse when you can't consistently cast hellrider on curve.
3. You still want to keep 2 Skullcracks in the board? That's where I dropped it to after playing with 3, and you'll probably end up cutting it entirely as you play more with this deck.

Against Esper. Imagine if those were Pyrehearts! Now instead of spending a card to stop some irrelevant lifegain, they have to spend TWO cards on one of your threats. And as you saw in the Junk MU, the problem isnt' thragtusk its them GETTING to thrag. So when he stumbles you need a card that's a threat (pyreheart) or burning his fixing (elecktrickery) to punish him, at least IMO. If you have a decent field out with pyreheart, he's also going to do more damage the turn after thrag comes down than Skullcrack (assuming skullcrack=8 damage at its VERY best) not to mention
every other turn.

I've found in recent testing the best way to beat junk rites is just to grind them out. Aka boarding out 2 GCR can be fine if it gives you more evasion. Just make all of their threats meaningless because they can't block and you don't have to Bloodrush (except as a finisher once maybe so I don't board them all out), and you can win through lifegain easy. If they get Angel out early they get her out, w/e. If they get her out twice in a Round then gg I guess.

This sounds interesting. I'm kind of a fan of this line of boarding. I actually think I'm more likely to drop traitorous blood from the board over skullcrack though. I've yet to cast it in an actual game.

Another reason to not have mortars or GCR against rites, their only actual way of getting card advantage is Unburial rites. Aka, if you don't KILL their threats, how can they get more uses out of their card? Mortars my Smiter/Centaur Healer? Yes pls,
now I bring him back and you are down a mortar.

Mortars is good against smiter decks in general if they still exist and I like extra kill spells for things like boar in the mirror or any x/2 plus VS. Regardless, I definitely have more cards to consider for my board. Domri is looking more appealing, threatens feel mediocre, though I just traded for a foil traitorous blood which is PRETTY sexy. Ash zealot needs more testing as it's low impact and I like high impact sideboard. Naturalize...seems playable.

[Link]

Not sure how Firefist gets worse against better players, can you elaborate?

I mean all our creatures can be "played" around by better players. Sure they can resto angel the target and block, but we have spear and GCR as always to answer that.

Having your entire field get in for damage T3 is extremely relevant. The strength of BTE decks is the ability to flood the field, the weakness is the creatures getting outclassed and having to suicide in for damage. Since our opponents are playing one spell/creature a turn the turn we are playing multiple, being able to get in all of our creatures into the red zone without a single one being eaten is extremely powerful.

What options are you worried about shitting on striker? Snapcaster just to block him? I'll trade snap+no spell for a striker any day. I'll trade a single flash into block creature with the striker too if its a resto angel. removal in response to combat?
Sure, but they have to already have a relevant creature out AND the removal AND the mana up, and the critical turn we're talking about is T3.

Plus against decks that can't/have very limited ways to play around it? Nothing more satisfying than forcing people to try and feebly "race" because they can't leave them back to block.

Also I still feel like this deck has enough avenues of play to "outplay" better opponents. Pocket LM+Firefist for a strong T4 play that they won't usually do the math for? Sure they are doing hellrider math, but what if my entire field gets in now, and THEN hellrider comes down to mop you up? Its pretty powerful. Lightning mauler ALONE I've found is a very versatile tool in terms of "lines of play" he creates.

Consistent turn 4 kills

You can't conistently kill Junk Rites through resistance on T4 with this deck. Its just not feasible. You're thinking of Naya Blitz (-minus the consistency part). The
pyreheart wolf plan is by far the best angle I've found, and trust me I've grinded that match-up literally hundreds of times back when the decks first came out and now with the new Voice/Fiend Hunter versions. Reckoner is NEVER going to get there if they have thrag+unburial rites out. I mean, he can get there if you have brimstone volleys and you just redirect 5 and go for 10 burst damage, but I think we can agree we don't want to be on the brimstone plan.

And let me define what I mean by grind. I'm not talking T8+ long grindy games. I'm talking about they drop a thragtusk, resto angel it have some souls out, etc. We definitely want to beat them before a hardcast Angel can come online, aka T6/T5. The difference between beating rites and losing to them is on T5 or T6, killing their thrag so it can be re-animated or not killing it.

As for Pyreheart being worse when you're not casting hellrider right after him... what testing is this based on? I found that when I DON"T see hellrider, Pyreheart
is THE card to see. Because that means I'm stuck with a bunch of my "underpowered" cards (2-drops, 1-drops, etc.) then I want them all to at LEAST be blocked by two creatures in order to offset getting "outclassed" by creatures. fact that they are artificially increase their value and force the most damage through, and to ensure enough of them are alive for if/when I DO draw a hellrider/GCR, it'll be enough to finish them off.

Also for those "better players" that are playing around your firefist with flash creatures.... I'd like to see them resto angel so that they can double block my 2/1 Firefist after I drop my wolf. Sure go right the hell ahead. Its much better for them to HAVE to play around your striker, than just to outclass your Rancor-less Ash Zealot (that didn't even come down T2 off your Emsisary)

But yeah if you want to keep the MB burn and are gonna drop a creature, I'd drop Firefist over LM. LM is going to more relevant against these control archetypes (I
didn't do a FNM write-up this week I think because of Game Day, but LM DESTROYED this Bant control player that kept bouncing my hasty guys back when I had two LMs on the field. Talk about awkward board state for him), and if you do put Pyrehearts in the side firefist can be a little redundant and clunky whereas LM just gets the damage through (and can haste out pyrehearts!)

[Link]

I know how you feel about Threatens btw. I picked up two foil TBloods in one day in the bin at my LGS for like 50 cents... haven't used them once.

Against junk rites I feel like unless you see it on curve, its really subpar... And since you don't want to dilute your SB you can't run more than 2 of them, so its just really hard to see on curve.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm gonna test the pyreheart tech this week. I trust your judgement and you make reasonable arguments. But I will say the guy that runs out the dry snapcaster to trade is usually doubling his chances to win and it's made my strikers...sad.

While we're at it, just post your board strat, play and draw so I can simulate your testing and adjust it for my deck. I'm not egotistical enough to think I know everything. I'm just gonna copy you and tweak from there. Gotta go over every option.

[Jack]

Yes, I'd also very much appreciate a sideboarding section added to the primer. I just ordered the cards I needed to build this off TCGPlayer, so I haven't been able to do any testing at an event, but from the few games I've played on Cockatrice, I realized that sideboarding was really what caused many of my losses. The sideboard cards seem fairly straightforward regarding what to bring in, but I really had no clue what to take out, and usually ended up just cutting the LMs against anything but dedicated control, and often Cackler and Striker as well. I thought I knew sideboarding when I was doing so well with the famous KDW transformational sideboard, but it seems that this only applies to one deck. Hell, I don't even know if I'm building mine with the right cards, as its been over a month since I've played standard at my LGS. Usually its about 8 or so aggro dudes, a little more than that playing 3-4 color control
brews that I never actually feel controlled by, and a number of guys that just play whatever's good.

[Link]

Turns out the week-end my friends are having a meet-up in Baltimore is an SCG Open in Baltimore. I can't pass up that prize pool! Anti-social mode engaged (we'll be there from thursday-monday, so its just one day).

So I'm lay off on updating the OP with a SB plan until I get that experience as well. I'd also like it to be more of a team effort because I don't think I've ever laid out a concrete plan before tonight, so I'd love to hear from your testings as well if you use mine as a starting point.

But here's how I'm going to go into it, although I'm like you LP and SB more based off my gut and the particular MU I'm going against (which is how I ended up not boarding in Skullcracks against rites and wanting to modify my SB to represent that):

[deck="Subject to change the day of based on how I feel and how many Domri's/Pyreheart/Elecks I want"]
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Elecktrickery
n2 Pyreheart Wolf
2 Domri Rade[/deck]

Reanimator- Minor adjustments on play, stay fast. More changes on draw to get around unburial rites without GY hate
Play: -4 Boros Reckoner -2 Lightning Mauler/Firefist (depedent on # lingering souls in the list. Firefist is weaker on play vs. souls)
+2 Pyreheart Wolves +4 Pillar of Flame
Draw: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -4 Lightning Mauler -1 Boros Reckoner
+2 Pyreheart Wolves +4 Pillar of flame +3 Elecktrickery

Sweeper Control-Keep relevant threat density high, little changes based on draw/play
-4 Boros Reckoner (except against UWr, where they have red removal), +2 Pyreheart Wolves +2 Domri Rade


Bant Flash-Firefist loses value, other evasion necessary
Play: -4 Firefist Striker
+2 Pyreheart Wolf +2 Domri Rade
Draw: -4 Stromkirk Noble -4 Firefist Striker
+4 Pillar of Flame (if Voice seen) +2 Pyreheart Wolf, +2 Domri Rade

Bant Hexproof-Burn dorks, evade their creatures, out race.
Play: -4 Firefist striker (really dependent on what their creature plan is.
Taking out Maulers instead if they have stranglroot geists and voices is fine)
+4 Pillar

Draw: -4 Rakdos Cackler -1 Hellrider, -2 LMaulers/strikers
+4 Pillar +3 Elecktrickery

Naya Blitz/Mirror-Control their Parishes, abuse access to more burn. As for the mirror, just go with gut.
Play: -4 Rakdos Cacklers -3 Hellrider, -1 Land (if you have a dead hellrider in your hand and are waiting on a land drop, you're going to lose. Dumping your hand faster than them is key and at 4 mana you can bloodrush and have a spear more important than having a hellrider)
+4 VS
+4 Pillar of Flame

Draw: -4 Rakdos Cacklers -4 LMaulers, - 3Hellrider
+4 Pillar of Flame +4 VS, +3 Elecktrickery

Aristocrats: Keep up offensive, pillar blood artists, evade reckoners
Play: -3 Hellrider -1 Mountain -4 LM (bad against reckoners and lingering souls, firefist is less bad on play)
+4 VS +4 Pillar of Flame

Draw: -4 Rakdos Cackler, -3 Mauler, -4 Firefist Striker

+4 Pillar of Flame +3 Elecktrickery, +4 VS


Jund-
Pyreheart is King. Spear answers Olivia, but if you overwhelm them answering you on the play I've found it better
Play: -2 Firefist Striker
+2 Pyreheart Wolf

Draw: -4 Firefist Striker -2 Searing Spear
+2 Pyreheart Wolf +4 VS


enough rambling. Gonna put this through some more testing and probably edit adjustments. Please feel free to give feedback since I'm going from memory and how I feel about each MU atm

[Link]

I might take out two LM or a Striker and a LM to fit in two pillars MB... it'd feel dirty but it would let me run 3 domris 3 pyreheart and 3 elecktrickery in the side without any additional changes.

[LP, of the Fires]

Excellent stuff. It's 2:30 so I'm not gonna really right anything other then this is awesome and I'm glad I'm not the only person who's ever boarded out all of his hellriders.

I will note I went 4-0 at Monday Night magic yesterday and 3-1 tonight. Highlights of tonight where:

A) Winning a game against W/u agro with one land and 3 stromkirk nobles(though this was my one match loss).

B) Calculating the only way for me to lose a game against UWR midrange was to my opponent having double boros charm(he just hit me to 14 after swinging with Thundermaw). Tanked on 2-1ing myself to kill hellkite or to beat for damage and hold up skullcrack for sphinx. I figured sphinx and/or azorius charm where more likely then double boros charm. Opponent casual draws snapcaster mage. We had a good laugh and I reaffirmed for the room that I was psychic as I said I thought he might have part of it but I wouldn't care if I lost that way.
n
C) Playing Junk rites in pick-up games and reanimating voice of resurgence multiple times versus control.

2 tournies, net cash 30 bucks. Hoping to turn that into 80 tomorrow.

Also, tried out the pyreheart tech, don't know how much I like boarding out ghor-clans, but I won the match.

[Christen]

How has Electrickery been performing? I'm most likely using this come WMCQ since it's the deck I'm most comfortable with.

I also like the latest SB plan.

[Valdarith]

I just REALLY prefer some number of Pillar in the main, but then again you and I are running much different decks, Fate, so your 60 is a lot tighter since you're running more land.

I actually made a difficult decision and tossed my Domri Rades out of the 75 completely. I just never found myself wanting to board them in any of my matchups and generally prefered to just be faster in the matches he would come in.

[rcwraspy]

For what it's worth, here's a quick write-up of cards that have floated in and out of my SB and my thoughts for the SB for this deck, along with a brief description of when I'd want to see them. These are in no particular order.

Mizzium Mortars - Realistically we're never using this for its overload cost. If the game's going that long, it's not in our favor anyway, even if we do clear their board. But having a couple of these against Augur, Resto angel, and some other x/3 or x/4 in the meta is nice.

Pillar of Flame - should be in your 75 somewhere. Many decks only run Spear MB, so this should likely be a 4-of SB. The best answer to Voice of Resurgence and great against other aggro decks.

Electrickery - decent early against Naya Blitz and one of the best ways to deal with an Invisible Stalker in those Bant
Enchant matchups.

Flames of the Firebrand - a very undervalued card but oh so good against Naya Blitz and the mirror. Sometimes it's a more expensive Searing Spear, but every once in a while it's a 3-for-1. It's usually a 2-for-1, which is good enough in my book.

Domri Rade - the little engine that could. He laughs at Azorious Charm and helps us keep chugging along. Good for longer matchups and, as mentioned, especially good against UW/x decks.

SKullcrack - it's a trap! We rarely if ever want to be keeping mana open for this, and when we do it's just a guessing game. And the opponent has an equal opportunity to guess WHY we kept mana up. Can help against opponents chaining Thragtusk or Sphinx's Revelation, but I wouldn't suggest it.

Volcanic Strength - great against any deck running mountains. Be careful of being 2-for-1'd, but honestly this deck doesn't
care about that TOO much. It sacrifices that sort of play for burst strength. Bring in against Naya Blitz, the mirror, and creature-based RDW. Could bring in game 2 and side back out game 3 against Jund - they're often bringing in Tragic Slip which this gets past.

Ash Zealot - one of Red's best 2 drops ever, but can't be chained from a BTE. Therefore not a mandatory MB card for us, but can be tech in the SB against aggro and token decks. On the draw I'm not unhappy swapping 4 Stromkirk Noble for 4 Zealots.

Legion Loyalist - this isn't typically a 1-drop. You usually want to drop this then swing with an army turns 3+ for a bit of a sorcery speed combat trick. Can be chained from BTE and is super relevant against tokens or other aggro (first strike and trample? yes please).

Madcap Skills - with Firefist Striker MB I don't think we need this
any longer, but it's an extra blocking = bad effect. Super techy on an Ash Zealot.

Pyreheart Wolf - if Reckoner is MB, this should be a heavy consideration SB. Bring in against any deck that can give you a clogged board state.

Traitorous Blood - my favorite of the threaten effects for this deck, as the trample is super relevant and the double R is easy. You're bringing this in against Jund and Junk Rites mostly, though it can also be useful against "sledgehammer" aggro builds.

So those are the cards I'd consider. Here's what I'd generally want to see:

Against Naya Blitz: Pillar and Flames of the Firebrand
Against RDW: Volcanic Strength, Pillar, Flames
Against Jund Midrange: Volcanic Strength (for game 2 only), Domri, Traitorous Blood, Pyreheart Wolf
Against Junk Rites: Pillar, Traitorous Blood, Pyreheart Wolf, Ash Zealot
Against UW/x control: Domri, Pyreheart Wolf, Ash Zealot

We'd want to board out those cards that prove
ineffective for us. Stromkirk is coming out if we're on the draw in any matchup where they can put down a T1 or T2 dude. Stromkirk and Cackler can come out against UW/x as they're horrible Azo targets for us.

EDIT: If you're on the play, it's also acceptable in some matchups to just present your regular 60. Pretend to swap out cards of course, but just put back in the ones that are normally MB. Most decks will be sacrificing some of their strategy to answer our threats and/or what our deck normally brings in. Just run over them.

Here's where I'm currently at with my Gruul BTE SB:

[deck]BTE Aggro SB[/deck]

My thought is that I want consistency and some punch. This gives me the best of both in my opinion.

[Link]

How has Electrickery been performing? I'm most likely using this come WMCQ since it's the deck I'm most comfortable with.

I also like the latest SB plan.

I'm actually considering cutting it for 3 Ash Zealots right now.


The only times I've used it to great success... were in multiples. Its a "blow-out" card every once in a blue moon that I'm starting to think dilutes our game plan too much. This is when its been good:

1. I was able to Elecktrickery some lingering souls and then do the same the next turn to get in a bunch of damage against UBr Animator. If it was Ash Zealot instead, my opponent would've taken 9 damage in flash back pings this game (well more because I would've had multiple zealots)


2. I speared and then
elecktrickeried the token of a lone Voice. This let my noble grow, at cost for 2-1 though.

3. I've elecktrickeried some dorks, which is definitely important. They have to have a 2 dork+ hand though in order to get full value, and its hard to "read" that people have dork hands, and also dependent on them having dorks.


Ash Zealot would also let me bring in 9 cards against UWr Flash and Esper control, aka she's more versatile and more relevant. I like having cards in my SB that I bring in against multiple MUs. It always makes me smile when an opponent goes "all those for me? Really?" when I'm not really "transforming" my deck, just making it more valuable and relevant each time because the cards in my SB are very impactful instead of narrow.

I also want to make a "major" change to bring to the SCGOpen. I don't think I'm going to get there with a list people have seen plenty of times over since Charlotte. I'm going to take LP's experience and cut back on
the weaker 2/1s, and vala's exp to have pillars MB.

[deck]Gruul Smash 3.0[/deck]



I like having 3-ofs of domri and pyreheart because I definitely want to see those cards and have them make a difference. Going down to 3LM and 3 Firefist still gives me them when they are great (comboing off BTE I have 16 non BTE cards), and also let's me side out equivalently. Aka -Maulers, +3 Ash zealot against lingering soul decks. -3 Firefist, +3 Pyreheart against control decks and flash decks.

I want to make even slips een more now after watching the video AJSacher linked
http://www.twitch.tv/ajsacher/c/2329519

I skipped ahead to a random part, and he started talking about SIdeboarding correctly. Must be Fate I thought, so that inspired me to go ahead and put the pillars MB and have relevant 3-ofs in the SB.

[Link]

I just REALLY prefer some number of Pillar in the main, but then again you and I are running much different decks, Fate, so your 60 is a lot tighter since you're running more land.

I actually made a difficult decision and tossed my Domri Rades out of the 75 completely. I just never found myself wanting to board them in any of my matchups and generally prefered to just be faster in the matches he would come in.

MB pillars are being done. Only as a 2 of because I still hate it dead when its dead, but against those MUs it iwll at least do 2 upstairs (about the same that a firefist striker would get in for once). Expecting as many Voices at this Open as there were Reckoners at PTGTC, plus it frees up SB space (most importantly).

I might just be a
coward when it comes to UWr decks, but I lean on Domri very hard there. That MU is very frustrating, and they VERY OFTEN have Pillar-> Azo Charm-> Verdicts-> Sphinxtime. You can rarely win through that, but Domri gives you an awesome angle. He also makes Esper a bye, whereas SOMTIMES (im lookin at you LP) Esper can see the right part of their deck and stomp us.

[rcwraspy]

[deck]Gruul Smash 3.0[/deck]

I like this list a LOT, but just know that you'll often only swing with 1 dude on T2, sacrificing it for a larger swing T3.

I've played around quite a bit with 3-ofs, and it can be tough going. It lets you pack more "things" into the deck but you're incrementally chipping away at your
consistency.

[Valdarith]

I just REALLY prefer some number of Pillar in the main, but then again you and I are running much different decks, Fate, so your 60 is a lot tighter since you're running more land.

I actually made a difficult decision and tossed my Domri Rades out of the 75 completely. I just never found myself wanting to board them in any of my matchups and generally prefered to just be faster in the matches he would come in.

MB pillars are being done. Only as a 2 of because I still hate it dead when its dead, but against those MUs it iwll at least do 2 upstairs (about the same that a firefist striker
would get in for once). Expecting as many Voices at this Open as there were Reckoners at PTGTC, plus it frees up SB space (most importantly).

I might just be a coward when it comes to UWr decks, but I lean on Domri very hard there. That MU is very frustrating, and they VERY OFTEN have Pillar-> Azo Charm-> Verdicts-> Sphinxtime. You can rarely win through that, but Domri gives you an awesome angle. He also makes Esper a bye, whereas SOMTIMES (im lookin at you LP) Esper can see the right part of their deck and stomp us.

I understand the frustration. I hate that matchup too, but we have to live with the fact that we will never be able to beat their nut draw, even with Domri. If I replace those slots with Ash Zealot at least I'm dedicating my deck to be faster and less cold to Azorius Charm.

[Link]

I think I just found the weakness of this deck is post board. G1 BTE+Chains are BRUTALLY fast and unstoppable G1, so yes I want to do it as often as possible (hence 6 great red 2 drops to chain into, Boar, and 6 burn). BUT post board it means jack shit because in some MUs, as AJ reminded, post board games play out SO differently.

Ex: BTE chains do jack shit when your opponent is expecting it and ramps into a T2 lingering souls, or throws down some beef, etc. Aka against most midrangey decks, Going "hyper fast" doesn't stand up to snuff. By cutting down to 3 ofs for the chain MB, I can fit better SB plans that do more work post board. Pyreheart is going to do work in post board games, Zealot is gonna be more solid in post board games. Domri is gonna be great against verdict decks than overextending my hand-chain will be.

Also adding a SB section to the OP now. Going to use your evaluation list as a starting point
rcawr.

Though, as Z said a long time ago back on MTGS, I don't agree with boarding out 1-drops against Azo charm decks. They don't ALWAYS have Azo charm, and when they do they are still going to slow you down with it. I rather them be FORCED to azo charm a 1-drop that's going to kill them while my hasty guys get in for damage, than azo charm one of those hasty guys...

[Link]

I just REALLY prefer some number of Pillar in the main, but then again you and I are running much different decks, Fate, so your 60 is a lot tighter since you're running more land.

I actually made a difficult decision and tossed my Domri Rades out of the 75 completely. I just never found myself wanting to board them in any of my matchups and generally prefered to just be faster in the matches he would come in.

MB pillars are
being done. Only as a 2 of because I still hate it dead when its dead, but against those MUs it iwll at least do 2 upstairs (about the same that a firefist striker would get in for once). Expecting as many Voices at this Open as there were Reckoners at PTGTC, plus it frees up SB space (most importantly).

I might just be a coward when it comes to UWr decks, but I lean on Domri very hard there. That MU is very frustrating, and they VERY OFTEN have Pillar-> Azo Charm-> Verdicts-> Sphinxtime. You can rarely win through that, but Domri gives you an awesome angle. He also makes Esper a bye, whereas SOMTIMES (im lookin at you LP) Esper can see the right part of their deck and stomp us.

I understand the frustration. I hate that matchup too, but we have to live with the fact that we will never be able to beat their nut draw, even with Domri. If I replace those slots with Ash Zealot at least I'm dedicating my deck to be faster and less cold to Azorius Charm.

hmm. Do
you suggest -3 Domri, +1 Ash Zealot, +2 ??? (elecktrickery again?) in its place for my list posted above?

I know Domri is my pet planeswalker so I can be over-evaluating him, but I don't think I'm wrong that he's a really solid card. Maybe not for Sligh...

[Valdarith]

I think he's better for you as a two-of in a 20+ land deck. With me running 18 lands I can't afford to slow down and play him, even with me running 30+ creatures.

[Link]

hmm yeah Domri getting me hellriders or closer to the 4th land drop for hellriders is a pretty big distinction. I'll be keepin him then

[rcwraspy]

Though, as Z said a long time ago back on MTGS, I don't agree with boarding out 1-drops against Azo charm decks. They don't ALWAYS have Azo charm, and when they do they are still going to slow you down with it. I rather them be FORCED to azo charm a 1-drop that's going to kill them while my hasty guys get in for damage, than azo charm one of those hasty guys...

I'd rather that also, but in my experience it just doesn't play out that way. Until Snapcaster rotates, I think we have to. I'd have to look at what Z wrote up - I'm not recalling it right now.

But these decks are running Spear, board wipes in some form (usually verdict), and some pillars here and there in addition to Azo Charm and the occasional Unsummon. Multiply each by 2 because of
Snapcaster and that's the number you COULD see in a given game. In my experience against them they only start Azo Charming your 1-drops after having dealt with your other dudes. And when you're in top-deck mode, getting back the same 1-drop is absolutely brutal. Not to mention that horrible sinking feeling when Stromkirk loses his counters.

You want action here, and you'd rather it be a 2+ drop. It's why Zealot from the side is great. If I have to get something Azo Charmed, I'd rather it be something with Haste (Zealot, Boar, Hellrider).

[Link]

It was one of Z's one-liners, "boarding out Nobles against control can't be correct" or something like that.

Don't underestimate the strength of 1-drops. Its what makes red decks, red decks. We're techinically "winning" from T1 when we throw one down, and people breathe huge sighs of relief when we don't put any pressure down T1. Obviously "full haste" plan is good for azo charm, but when they start azo charming pyrehearts or reckoners, you're gonna wish you had drained them of their azo charm earlier instead of just passing T1.

I don't mind noble losing his counters. He's a 1 drop ffs! If they don't deal with him, its game over. I rather have a card they HAVE to deal with starting T1 then, well a lot of other things against control. Its not a value race like against midrange and junk rites (where noble is too slow or too weak sometimes), its straight up time. IF they get up to
snapcaster+x mana or sphinx's mana, the games out of your reach. Noble and cackler are there from the get go to keep it in your reach

[rcwraspy]

It was one of Z's one-liners, "boarding out Nobles against control can't be correct" or something like that.

Don't underestimate the strength of 1-drops. Its what makes red decks, red decks. We're techinically "winning" from T1 when we throw one down, and people breathe huge sighs of relief when we don't put any pressure down T1. Obviously "full haste" plan is good for azo charm, but when they start azo charming pyrehearts or reckoners, you're gonna wish you had drained them of their azo charm earlier instead of just passing T1.

I don't mind noble losing his counters. He's a 1 drop ffs! If they don't deal with him, its game over. I rather have a card they HAVE to deal with starting T1 then, well a lot of other things against
control. Its not a value race like against midrange and junk rites (where noble is too slow or too weak sometimes), its straight up time. IF they get up to snapcaster+x mana or sphinx's mana, the games out of your reach. Noble and cackler are there from the get go to keep it in your reach

Very good points. I'll continue to think about it.

Not as a retort but instead as a follow-up question, do you board out Nobles when you're on the draw against aggro? I generally have, with the thought that he's not getting in and growing unless against a Humans deck.

[Valdarith]

Board out Cacklers on the draw. With Noble, they have to respect him as he can get in with a couple of counters to become an effective blocker. Cackler, OTOH, will always be a 1/1 if you want to use him as a blocker.

[Link]

What Vala said.

I made a few more changes, I really like the deck where its at now.
-1 Temple Garden (down to 20 land, can't cast Ash Zealot)
3rd pillar main.

+1 Ash Zealot SB (when she's relevant you want all of her).


[deck]Gruul Smash 3.0[/deck]


I wrote out all my SB plans on note cards for even swaps. TLDR version, I'm mostly boarding out the 2/1s for ash zealots often.
Blitz: -Hellrider, -2/1s +Pillars, VS, Zealot
Rites: -Noble on Draw, LM, # of GCR +Zealots, Pyreheart Wolf, +Pillar
nFlash Control: -Firefist, Pillars, Reckoner +Domri, Wolf, Zealots
Aristocrats (tricksy): -LM Firefist, -1 Hellrider, +Pillar, Zealots, VS
Jund: -3 pillars, -Firefist, +Pyreheart, Zealots, VS (g2 only for some LM)

Bringing in Zealots begs the question, "Why not main her?" Again, post board games play out much differently. G1 people have their w/e deck plan and its nowhere near fast enough to handle BTE Chain. Post board, we go stronger and more relevant. We also make elecktrickery dead if they bring them in.

[rcwraspy]

Dos Rakis teaches us that bringing in a particular card each time you sideboard doesn't mean it has to be mainboarded. Dreadbore in that case comes in against everything. But you're absolutely right that it's all about gameplans.

And really with a list like this, don't underestimate the value of not boarding at all. If you're steamrolling someone, pretend to board in cards while you evaluate how many cards they seem to be boarding and what you assume them to be. It's also effective if you can't put them on a particular deck because the game was so fast. You either beat them a 2nd time or you get more time to see their cards and board appropriately for game 3.

[Link]

I'll keep that in mind. If I ever feel like BTE combo is enough to keep steamrolling someone, (or theyre playing greedy motherfucking 4 color rites without dorks again), I'll do the fake-out swap ;D

I'm gettin pumped for this event now

[LP, of the Fires]

Boarding out stromkirk can't be right against control. I actually said that to myself last night while I was sideboarding against control. Against control, the only cards I'd ever want are skullcracks, domri's, and maybe ash zealot. Depending on their build, possibly the wolf that could. Regardless, I want my nobles to stay. If they're playing like, augur and I'm on the draw, I might take out kirk, other then that...

[Link]

Ash Zealots give you FREE skullcracks when control does what it wants to do to stop you!

!!!! ;DDDDD

Yeah Augurs definitely suck. Especially when you have a LM and a noble and no spear to clear it. It can be good play to Soulbound a LM to a noble and swing at an augur and dare them to do something about it though, that's for sure. If your LM is freed up and you put a Wolf down with it the next turn, no more augur problem!

I haven't seen many augurs lately come to think of it (cept against esper, and I topdecked a spear the turn after augur came down hue)

[Link]

No but I definitely am considering Zealot to be a "high impact" SB card in testing so far LP.

When "vomit your hand onto the board and win" plan doesn't work, Zealots are where you want to be against a bunch of decks.

I think I'll call it "Value Smash" on the decklist >_>b

Especially with Voice out. You know who kills Voice and can kill the token up to 2/2 as well? Ash Zealot. If you pillar their dork and then a voice comes down, Zealots who you want.

raaraaaa Ash Zealot she's our girl if she can't do it (hopefully BTE can!) (WHERE CHEERLEADER SMILEY DAMN IT)

[Jack]

Fate, you should add the list you took to states to the primer. It's one of the more standard lists out there, and you have every right to flaunt your success in your own thread. Also, very good discussion on the sideboard plans. I'll start actually contributing with helpful content soon, I promise!

[Link]

I suppose its less arrogant if you ask me too post the list >___>b

Hoping to do better at the SCG Open and replace it though, those Skullcracks are staring back and haunting me

[Jack]

Thought I'd put up my current SB for discussion.
[deck]Sideboard
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Pyreheart Wolf
3 Ash Zealot
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Electrickery[/deck]
Don't have Domris yet, thought they were a bit expensive for a deck I've never even brought to FNM yet.
I'll probably try out moving two of the Pillars to the MB, freeing up space for a fourth VStrength and something else. Fourth Wolf? 4th Zealot? 3rd Electrickery? Hodor? I really don't think this deck wants a miser's copy of anything in the board. If you want to rely on your luck to win a game, you play Naya Blitz, not single copies of Skullcrack or TBlood