[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

[LP, of the Fires]

I'll expand my thoughts later, but I'd say you'll be a LOT more successful being mana-screwed then mana flooded. Also worth noting, he boarded out hellrider and boarded in VS making that 4th land effectively a dead card.

[Link]

zemans right (are we really surprised) technically, but it makes every draw way too important imo. id rather work on 2 land than 4 especially with LKs point

[LP, of the Fires]

In my experience, mulls are very rarely right or wrong when there close. It's more along the lines of what are you more comfortable with/how bad do you feel when you lose "like that" by say, keeping a one-lander or a 5-lander.

[zemanjaski]

^ fair.

[rcwraspy]

I'd rather be mana screwed than mana flooded.

When you're flooded, you don't have action in your hand but you have an abundance of mana. You're top-decking for action.

When you're mana screwed, you have plenty of action and just need to top-deck a land or two, which makes up at least a 3rd of your deck.

I'd of course rather get a perfect draw each time, but that thought process factors in to mulligan decisions when you're at 5 or fewer cards.

[Self Medicated]

So is there a "preferred" version of this deck? I'm not asking what list is best, just what list most people prefer.

[Valdarith]

I'd go with the one that's been putting up results. Fate's has been doing that.

Personally I like my 18-land deck though.

[LP, of the Fires]

Fate top 8's states going 21 land 4 spears and 35 creatures.

I missed a PTQ top 8 by a win with 21 land, 8 total removal(spear, pillar mortar), and 31 creatures.

Draw your conclusions from that as far as results go.

Sideboards surprisingly are wildly different.

The main contention being skullcrack, threatens, pyreheart wolf, ash zealot, domri, and naturalize. I think we all agree that you need at least on type of the first three and everyone wants some number of elecktrickery/pillar in there seventy-five(5-7 total).

Vals on approximately the Shahar shenhar 18 land deck from the GTCPT apparently.

@Z: I think I've decided against the known agro opponent that whoever was playing against, he should have kept the 4 land+spear, but against any non-agro opponent I would mull fwiw.

[Link]

I personally think MB Pillars is more solid, so I would say LP's version is more preferred. My version is riskier with higher payouts, and also has a better MB match-up against control.

The main things about the deck you need:
-BTE
-Creatures that can be cast off BTE (Lightning Mauler and/or Firefist Striker)
-Ghor-Clan Rampager
-Reach/Finisher

as for the SB, I think Pyrehearts aren't up for debate. You're going to need them. You also definitely need pillars, but I'm finding more and more that I personally only REALLY lean on them against aristocrats and mirror. Currently testing elecktrickery again and bringing in only that against junk rites.

As for Domri, we discussed earlier and I think that at his worse (drawing no cards and being dealt with by fliers/1 card/etc,) he isn't what this deck wants when there's space for more impactful cards. At his best, he wins the game against
control for free but I rather have consistency in an aggro deck. And trust me Domri is a REALLY hard fuckin cut

Taking this SB to standard cash tourny tonight:
[deck]
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Pyreheart Wolf
1 Hellrider
3 Elecktrickery
4 Volcanic Strength[/deck]

nice symmetry there >_>b (really I just couldn't find another pyreheart wolf so I'm subbing in hellrider.)

Took out Ash Zealots because I'm definitely giong to have to face my friend whos coming out to standard tongiht with Mono Red. Want elecktrickeries for his LM+Firefist+Nobles, as well as a Bant hexproof guy that always does well.


Testing has shown that vs. Naya:
-1 drops
+Pyreheart (and hellrider in my case)
+4 Pillar if against low curve experiment 1. naya
+4 VS if against Naya Midrange

[Valdarith]

This is the deck I'm on FWIW:

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Foundry Street Denizen
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (6)
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Rancor

Lands (18)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Pyreheart Wolf
[/deck]

I'm actually considering taking out the Rancors for a third Loyalist, fourth Denizen, and fourth Pillar, but it seems counterproductive to remove Rancor from a list with more Loyalists.

[Link]

cut ash zealots I see. Must've been even harder with rancors in the deck

When/how are you bringing in mortars?

I think cutting the rancors will be hard, but right.

Less green spells stuck in your hand during mountain only games, more consistent of the things you want to see (loyalist, 1-drop, pillars)

Loyalist+Rancor is sweet and so is Ash Zealot+Rancor. But synergies like that have to high a cost to the rest of the decks consistency, sadly (for instance when you get a hand with two creatures, one of them is firefist striker and a rancor. If only you could've gotten battalion ;P)

[Valdarith]

Mortars comes in against Loxodon Smiters, which currently may be too many since I'm running both Rancor and GCR in the main. That said, if I remove the Rancors, I'll probably keep four in the side. I like having multiple answers for the card beyond Pyreheart Wolf, Firefist Striker, and GCR, and Mortars can always be used on another creature as well.

If I take out the Rancors, the only green I'll be running is Flinthoof Boar and GCR. Is that really enough to run green or should I just go mono red? I think GCR offers a lot but I could always cut the Boars and GCR to run Gore-House Chainwalker and Dynacharge for mono red. The mana would be more consistent and I wouldn't have to shock myself which is relevant in the mirror and vs Naya Blitz.

[Link]

I think GCR is worth the splash for sure, its everything Mono Red has ever wanted. Flinthoof Boar is less crucial but still very solid.

Compared to Dynacharge (leans heavily on loyalist in play) and Chainwalker (no haste, 2 toughness aka DIES TO VOICE range) I don't see the comparison.

I think Mono Red's only redeeming factors are: Stone-wright, Ash Zealot, Hellion Crucible. Aka Khaos' list.

[Valdarith]

I think GCR is worth the splash for sure, its everything Mono Red has ever wanted. Flinthoof Boar is less crucial but still very solid.

Compared to Dynacharge (leans heavily on loyalist in play) and Chainwalker (no haste, 2 toughness aka DIES TO VOICE range) I don't see the comparison.

I think Mono Red's only redeeming factors are: Stone-wright, Ash Zealot, Hellion Crucible. Aka Khaos' list.

That's my feeling too, especially since I've been playing almost an exact copy of Khaos's list since GTC. Casting Flinthoof Boar ought to never be a problem and GCR being a four drop or a two-mana combat trick should help the deck stay consistent even if no green mana shows up. It will be rare when we have no green OR BTE to chain the Boar off of,
and I don't mind the GCR sitting in my hand on turns three or four a small percentage of my games. Removing the Rancor would make the mana even more consistent in the deck. I think it's the right move.

[Link]

this junk aristocrats deck is giving me hell pre-board

T_T

yeahyeah MB pillars I know

[Link]

I'm tempted ot sideboard Blasphemous Acts again for them >_>

[Christen]

this junk aristocrats deck is giving me hell pre-board

T_T

yeahyeah MB pillars I know

Aristocrats can be a real painful matchup. IMO Blasphemous Act can become a dead card quick if they manage to resolve their own Reckoner.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (35)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (7)
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands (18)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Pyreheart Wolf
[/deck]

Yesnomaybe?

[rcwraspy]

[deck]
Creatures (35)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (7)
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands (18)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Pyreheart Wolf
[/deck]

Yesnomaybe?

What are you hoping to get from Legion Loyalist in this? I like all 3 of his battalion abilities, but they seem weak to me in this list. Here's why, but I'd love to be proven wrong:

First Strike. Your biggest guy is a 3/3. You have 2 3/3's, one of which can be
given FS anyway. This only seems relevant if you're bloodrushing a GCR.

Trample. This is irrelevant if you're bloodrushing a GCR, but without the added 4/4 from GCR what are you trampling over? Will 2 or 3 power really see a damage through very often?

Tokens can't block. Awesome when relevant, but only relevant in certain matchups.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (35)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (7)
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands (18)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Pyreheart Wolf
[/deck]

Yesnomaybe?

What are you hoping to get from Legion Loyalist in this? I like all 3 of his battalion abilities, but
they seem weak to me in this list. Here's why, but I'd love to be proven wrong:

First Strike. Your biggest guy is a 3/3. You have 2 3/3's, one of which can be given FS anyway. This only seems relevant if you're bloodrushing a GCR.

Trample. This is irrelevant if you're bloodrushing a GCR, but without the added 4/4 from GCR what are you trampling over? Will 2 or 3 power really see a damage through very often?

Tokens can't block. Awesome when relevant, but only relevant in certain matchups.

He's really only there for the first strike, which is much more relevant in a list running the full set of Searing Spear to protect against multiple fatty blockers. He's high variance though. When he's good, he's very good, but when he's weak he's almost dead (like Pillar). Really I like having 11 one drops though. I can't afford to play an 18-land deck with only eight one-drops, and he seems more relevant than Denizen, especially as a top deck.

[Link]

this junk aristocrats deck is giving me hell pre-board

T_T

yeahyeah MB pillars I know

Aristocrats can be a real painful matchup. IMO Blasphemous Act can become a dead card quick if they manage to resolve their own Reckoner.

The Junk Aristocrats, no red, no reckoners.

I've personally never had a problem with the Dega aristocrat versions.

But my deck fuckin folds to young wolf into voice into lingering souls (or just 2/3 of them) and its embarassing. I think MonoR with Ash Zealots and 4 Pillars MB might be better positioned at the next big event with people
playing that shit (and they will be)

[Link]

I'd go up a land and down a reckoner in your list Vala, and then switch the Reckoners for Pyrehearts

just because he enables ALL of your weaker creatures.

Hmmm maybe loyalist is the way to deal with junk aristocrats.... (at least if I'm sticking to R/g which let's face I'll end up doing)

[Valdarith]

I'd go up a land and down a reckoner in your list Vala, and then switch the Reckoners for Pyrehearts

just because he enables ALL of your weaker creatures.

Hmmm maybe loyalist is the way to deal with junk aristocrats.... (at least if I'm sticking to R/g which let's face I'll end up doing)

I keep going back and forth on Reckoner vs Wolf main. It's a constant change and the switch happens week to week. Now that black removal is more prevelant I will probably main the wolves for maximum evasion.

[rcwraspy]

R/g Aggro is typically swarmy but yours is much more so, Val. I'd think that blocking tricks would be valued higher than the roadblock Reckoner provides.

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

heres what ive been on lately.

[deck]
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

2 Pillar of Flame
2 Searing Spear
3 Domri Rade

4 Stomping Grounds
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Temple Garden
11 Mountains

SB:
3 Traitorous Blood
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Searing Spear
1 Hound of Griselbrand
1 Pyrewild Shaman
1 Blasphemous Act
2 Electrickery[/deck]

I am trying both hound and pyrewild for the control matchups. I mean I do have Domri MB for that matchup too. Everything else speaks for itself. I agree with fate that with domri at his worst he eats a flier or dude for a turn. But at his best with a reckoner on board or him drawing 2-3 cards is just too good not to have. For me at least.

If I drop Domri then I think its right to drop reckoner as well. In that case I would go -3 Domri -4 Reckoner
+3 Pyreheart Wolf +2 Pillar +2 Spear.

Been running really smoothly. And we all know that there are plenty of nut draws with this deck. My issue as of late has been the G/W Populate Midrange matchup. I thought smiters sucked until I started facing 5/5s all day. Pretty much need to get quicker to beat them or play more combat tricks to win in combat. That is as long as they have no rootborn defenses. Anyone else finding a problem with the matchup. I bring in the threaten effects for sure but volcanic strength is a dead card.

[Link]

Loyalist definitely do serious work against junk bs.

[deck]
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Pyreheart Wolf
1 Hellrider
3 Legion Loyalist
[/deck]

Again I'd do 4 wolves if I had access to it over the hellrider. Loyalist is the "flex" spot of the SB that can be swapped for Elecktrickery, Domri Rade, Ash Zealots, etc. as appropriate.

Ninja: Speaking of Pyrehearts! Where you been?

I think MB domri is only good in the Ragehammer builds with ramp and Silverhearts. I played that again last night with my playtest group, but the mana and awkward draws >> the awesome nut draws.

I'd cut TBlood from the list honestly, and you can move Domri there. Then you can make the MB faster to deal with Advent decks, because their weakness is that its a 4 drop (and that you can GCR through it if you're early pressure ahs been enough.

[Valdarith]

I sold off all my Domri. He never felt right when I brought him in and I'd rather just focus in being faster vs control which is the pretty much the only matchup I brought him in.

[Christen]

So far, Domri has helped me in his relevant MUs. They dedicate their resources on bringing him down which gives you breathing room for your creatures.

Ash is almost always relevant so I'm iffy in cutting her for other cards. I won a rites match on her back due to her grave hate.

Loyalist sounds good if the meta is rampant with GW token decks.

Regarding Threatens, its use is fringe in this deck IMO. It will screw combat math occasionally.

Let's talk about M14. What potential cards are we looking at? Goblin Shortcutter is a given. Would Shock immediately replace Pillar given that Voice is in the format? Ogre Battledriver is also a 4 drop this deck likes.

[Link]

theros burn is really gonna be what decides a lot. I can't see not having pillars in this format while we still can tbh.

Shortcutter is gonna be nice. battledriver with hounds, ruric thar, and midrangey might be awesome for Ragehammer

[LP, of the Fires]

If the format slows down, I imagine gruul warchant being a thing. Depending on the burn printed will affect several things like whether or not we play young pyromancer or if we play things like legion loyalist as an answr to said pyromancer.

As is we have:

Cackler, loyalist, and possibly foundry street denizen at 1,

BTE, Firefist Striker, Ash, Shortcutter at 2,

Reckoner and Domri at three,

Rampager at 4.

There's obviously other stuff, but I see these guys as our "premium" spells that can enable various things.

[Link]

RUBBLEBELT RAIDERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Kazekirimaru]

RUBBLEBELT RAIDERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I've wanted to make this card work since I saw it. It may see play after Hellrider leaves?

[Link]

Hellraiser Goblin as premiere 3 drop. All in Gruul.

[zemanjaski]

Rubblebelt Raiders isn't very good when there is a good wrath and doom blade plus sorcery speed terrors in the format. Non-haste 4 drops aren't very attractive. GCR gets a pass of course.

[Valdarith]

Rubblebelt Raiders is trash unfortunately. Format will slow down and there will be quite a bit of good removal in the format between Putrefy, Abrupt Decay, Doom Blade, Orzhov Charm, etc. Best bet is to play a higher curve but with stronger creatures that have haste and/or evasion. Might even be less creature heavy and more reliance on burn spells.

[rcwraspy]

Chandra's Phoenix agrees with Valdarith.

[Link]

I just lost about 75% of the mirror matches with dos rakis.... good thing that deck hasn't caught on >_>

(VS is evn riskier because of dreadbores. Stonewright +fliers is huge game)

[Christen]

I haven't considered the Phoenix yet since we are more aggressive with creatures in this shell. If we ran more burn in the deck then it's considerable.

Though, I hope the mere fact it's going to be reprinted hints at more quality burn for red.

[Valdarith]

We really need a decent 2 cmc burn spell to replace Searing Spear. Maybe Incinerate. Need a way to deal with Voice of Resurgence too besides just going around him with Firefist Striker and the goblin guy.

[Link]

incinerate would be nice especially against that annoyign valroz guy.


Losing Flinthoof board is gonna be pretty big. Splashing green for just GCR might not be worth it if the creature he supports are worse.

Though I suppose replacing flinthoot with ash zealot isn't the worse thing that could happen ;D